I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Devs will make the hybrid work and balance through the test so the extra effort you put in to landing your action combat will have meaning.

I have no doubt about this at all.

However, I also have no doubt that they will keep the inherent style of each in tact. No one wants action combat that plays like tab, or tab combat that plays like action.

As such, action will be better in PvP.

Kai37

Noaani wrote: »

As such, action will be better in PvP.

I don't inherently disagree, in fact I tend to agree that action based skills will have the advantage for a variety of reasons, however in my mind this really comes down to how the abilities are designed.

ie. a tab ranged stun vs a skill shot stun, same duration, which is better? Well without the details of whether tab abilities will abide by the same rules as action abilities, what the execution speed is, accuracy, distance, impact radius and all that other relevant stuff.... it would be hard to know for certain.

in regards to the main topic, I have nothing against tab based combat but I think action based combat is more interesting to me. Elements such as aiming and positioning both offensively and defensively become a huge part of the player's choice process which in some cases is enough to be interesting without even considering skills/abilities. I would be happy with a 70/30 split, with 70% of my time spent using action skills and 30% of tab skills.

Hopefully the technology is there to ensure its not janky when using action skills in PvP.

Noaani

Kai37 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

As such, action will be better in PvP.

I don't inherently disagree, in fact I tend to agree that action based skills will have the advantage for a variety of reasons, however in my mind this really comes down to how the abilities are designed.

I agree with you here.

However, my assumption (and the assumption that I think we should all make unless proven otherwise) is that Intrepid will make action combat so that it plays and feels like action combat, and tab combat so that it plays and feels like action combat.

As to your example of a ranged stun, there is more to it than what you have outlined. What is the cast time for it in tab and action? Can it be cast while moving in each? Does it have any other components associated with it? How much of an effect do character stats (both of the caster and target) have on each? What is the recast timer?

It seems to me that the difference between action and tab will be much more than just duration. If that is the only difference, then action will not feel like action, and tab will not feel like tab.

Ludullu

As the local hardcore tab pvper, I can say that tab works just fine in pvp

It's all about the design, so we'll just have to see what Steven/Intrepid prefers for pvp, if there is even a preference.

Kai37

Noaani wrote: »

Kai37 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

As such, action will be better in PvP.

I don't inherently disagree, in fact I tend to agree that action based skills will have the advantage for a variety of reasons, however in my mind this really comes down to how the abilities are designed.

As to your example of a ranged stun, there is more to it than what you have outlined. What is the cast time for it in tab and action? Can it be cast while moving in each? Does it have any other components associated with it? How much of an effect do character stats (both of the caster and target) have on each? What is the recast timer?

It seems to me that the difference between action and tab will be much more than just duration. If that is the only difference, then action will not feel like action, and tab will not feel like tab.

I never focused on one thing, especially not just duration, I listed a variety of specific things and then said "and everything else that's relevant", so I totally agree with all the variables you mentioned, however that just leans into the point I was making. Feel free to reread that paragraph because it's the same as what you said, you just went into more detail and listed more elements.

On the other point, I really hope you are right with both styles of abilities feeling like action combat! It really comes down to us seeing more of the tab skills to really know how it will feel swapping between the two.

Osperand

Like the original poster i am a fan of tab targeting and it works for me. There are games i never purchased after watching the review of the combat system.

Now you may ask why, i think people have lots of reasons, for me it is a mix of two things.

One. I am getting older, been playing games since i was a kid and now i am close to 60 my reflexes are far slower and those types of aiming games just become too frustrating to play.

Two. There are many games players with lots of types of disability that can restrict their fun when there is no tab target. I myself have arthritis, not chronic though thank god.

I remember the first "aimbot" i came across, about 30 years ago, and there have been many iterations since. I believe if you have two systems in place (tab target and aim) and one is more powerful or skills can only be used when using one or the other it will be detrimental to the game.

Finally, i would like to say that people seem to dismiss effort as less valuable than skill. I would say in my experience that skilful plyers will always get to the top of the tree no matter what system is settled on. Effort should be rewarded far more than it is in a lot of games (which don't last long).

Just my 2 cents anyway.

Hinotori

Fatalmistake187 wrote: »

Then what exactly is the point of having Action Combat? Again if there is no difference between the two then no one is going to use action at all because aiming your skills no matter how great your aim is, will never be a for sure thing like tab targeting in GW2. Then you have a situation where no one uses action because it's not guaranteed. So I disagree, if you're trying to make it so both things are viable, especially in pvp then action combat should have an advantage over tab targeting because it requires more skill to aim, lead and predict movements.

I don't think one is meant to have any advantage over the other overall. (maybe in certain situations one might be better) but realistically they should have equal parity so that no one is disadvantaged for leaning more toward one playstyle than the other.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Devs will make the hybrid work and balance through the test so the extra effort you put in to landing your action combat will have meaning.

I have no doubt about this at all.

However, I also have no doubt that they will keep the inherent style of each in tact. No one wants action combat that plays like tab, or tab combat that plays like action.

As such, action will be better in PvP.

You don't know what people want in pvp, you don't pvp....

Raise

After playing Guild Wars 2, I grew to dislike tab-targeting. It's way less player-skill based and more of which class activates their overpowered abilities first. Tab-targeting might as well be called "auto-targeting" because that's what it is.

Mag7spy

Raise wrote: »

After playing Guild Wars 2, I grew to dislike tab-targeting. It's way less-player skill based and more of which class activates their overpowered abilities first. Tab-targeting might as well be called "auto-targeting" because that's what it is.

Agreed, exactly why people use tab over action combat in GW2 because it is 100% more effective removing the skill element.

Raise

Mag7spy wrote: »

Raise wrote: »

After playing Guild Wars 2, I grew to dislike tab-targeting. It's way less-player skill based and more of which class activates their overpowered abilities first. Tab-targeting might as well be called "auto-targeting" because that's what it is.

Agreed, exactly why people use tab over action combat in GW2 because it is 100% more effective removing the skill element.

Yeah and this is after playing Ultima Online, Lineage 2, SWTOR, WOW etc.

Guild Wars 2 was one of the only MMOs I played where it felt as your gear and items were important, but your own personal skill were the biggest factors.

Tab-targeting is outdated and more focus on fluid, aesthetic and satisfying DYNAMIC combat should be where we are going.

A lot of player's first MMO was WoW so I understand why they want it but WoW is not a good example of good MMO combat. That's exactly why they've been "balancing" the PvP for +17 years.

Because it's not good.

Solvryn

Putting my stock in the fact they’re building the combat system piece by piece. Don’t be surprised if that toggle disappears.

PenguinPaladin

Solvryn wrote: »

Putting my stock in the fact they’re building the combat system piece by piece. Don’t be surprised if that toggle disappears.

I also wouldn't be suprised of the toggle stayed..... i think having both modes of combat allows the largest range of players to play how they enjoy to... why limit themselves.

Ashes is looking to make a .......hybrid........ system. They have already talked about how hard ccs are going to require the skillshots of action combat. But at the same time what does a root matter to a tab target skill anyways? Its going to be a mix. Not just action not just tab. I think this isnt really that hard to imagine.

The biggest problem with "action combat" as a tab player is that its shallow. I like having a huge amount of skills to customize and for them all to be balanced in an action setting, its normally a character with 4 or so abilities i need to watch out for. And that seems shallow to me.

While tab seems boring, from the action side of things because "you dont do anything" just hit buttons in a certain order, and walk around. You could say the experience seems shallow.

Putting both together, in a way where combat FEELS good. Cant do anything but make it more complex. All the rest of the argument is balancing.... so when the combat is shown, and we get to play around with it. Dont stop complaining about the balance until it works. Thats our job. Stop trying to remove either part of the system. Leave action in. Leave tab in. Just complain about the system as a whole until it works.

Mag7spy

Why is new world the standard for the amount of abilities you have when BDO has like 40 abilities? Why are you saying action can't have more than 4 abilities, I don't remember design stopping people from creating more skills in a game.

@PenguinPaladin

PenguinPaladin

Mag7spy wrote: »

Why is new world the standard for the amount of abilities you have when BDO has like 40 abilities? Why are you saying action can't have more than 4 abilities, I don't remember design stopping people from creating more skills in a game.

@PenguinPaladin

I have not played BDO, everyone said it was trash, so i dont have that experience, oh great BDO enjoyer.... my bad for not having your exact opinions and experience.

My action combat experiences are smite, which i think is a good action combat system, but i wouod be disappointed with it in an MMO, and ESO where i had 6 skills that did anything. And again am disappointed with that in an MMO.

I dont use unfinished games, like new world as a bases for argument.

And, my take on the two combat systems overall was like the least important part of my post. You BDO players are worse than the WOW players. Constantly begging for ashes to be the recreation of your dead game.

Mag7spy

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Why is new world the standard for the amount of abilities you have when BDO has like 40 abilities? Why are you saying action can't have more than 4 abilities, I don't remember design stopping people from creating more skills in a game.

@PenguinPaladin

I have not played BDO, everyone said it was trash, so i dont have that experience, oh great BDO enjoyer.... my bad for not having your exact opinions and experience.

My action combat experiences are smite, which i think is a good action combat system, but i wouod be disappointed with it in an MMO, and ESO where i had 6 skills that did anything. And again am disappointed with that in an MMO.

I dont use unfinished games, like new world as a bases for argument.

And, my take on the two combat systems overall was like the least important part of my post. You BDO players are worse than the WOW players. Constantly begging for ashes to be the recreation of your dead game.

I've never said i wanted AoC to be a recreation of BDO. What I find is the worst if you consider smite action based relating to do anything with a mmorpg, a moba and mmorpg are not the same thing please don't compare the two.

So you are saying you don't want ashes to be a recreation of a dead game, why are you interested in the game as it is made up of actual dead mmorpgs with 0 player base or a very tiny one? What is the point of a statement except to attempt to annoy or agitate someone for no reason as its clear you are trying to insult. Thought you were better than that tbh.

The Erudite Trader

you might be referring to Korean MMO's AoE Fiesta which really turned me off towards playing BDO and Elyon. Action combat is fun if you are not just spamming aoe skills to grind mobs, every action is planned and coordinated along with contingencies when things go bad

Mag7spy

The Erudite Trader wrote: »

you might be referring to Korean MMO's AoE Fiesta which really turned me off towards playing BDO and Elyon. Action combat is fun if you are not just spamming aoe skills to grind mobs, every action is planned and coordinated along with contingencies when things go bad

This I agree with, should be aoe everywhere and giant aoe. With a proper speed it won't be like bdo where people can do 1000 things per second and constantly dodge your stuff and be in iframe. Creating good pve is important in all mmorpgs and honestly games in general, elden ring as an example.

PenguinPaladin

@Mag7spy you are literarily just trying to argue without caring about the meaning to any posts... so we're done. Have fun.

Mag7spy

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

@Mag7spy you are literarily just trying to argue without caring about the meaning to any posts... so we're done. Have fun.

And you are calling games dead because they have at least 30-40k plus people or ignoring other mmorpg and their combat, comparing mmorpgs to smite in action combat.

I wasn't even trying to argue just stating the fact bdo has more abilities and instead you start a argument and attack when given information.

Child Item