Leukael wrote: » Leiloni wrote: » Generally a healer can't be a tank because they need to heal themselves to stay alive and getting hit while casting slows down or interrupts your cast (or the animation if it's an ability without a cast bar but which instead relies on the animation as the "cast bar"), depending on how it's designed. Even if your cast is only slowed down, it's often enough to prevent you from healing yourself up enough to stay alive if constantly getting hit. So you die eventually because you can't keep up. This is why big heals, or big abilities in general, have longer cast times or longer animations - because it balances them. So sure you can heal yourself with a big ability, but you need to have the time to do so - risk vs reward. That has always been my concern with pvp as a healer. I play a healer because I enjoy healing and supporting my teammates. The issue I have with pvp as a healer is you're by default a tank first. Whoever figures out how to solve that will be my hero. In mobas healers have a generous amount of cc and disengages to deal with that but I think in mmos it is awkward in that space for some reason from a balancing point maybe?
Leiloni wrote: » Generally a healer can't be a tank because they need to heal themselves to stay alive and getting hit while casting slows down or interrupts your cast (or the animation if it's an ability without a cast bar but which instead relies on the animation as the "cast bar"), depending on how it's designed. Even if your cast is only slowed down, it's often enough to prevent you from healing yourself up enough to stay alive if constantly getting hit. So you die eventually because you can't keep up. This is why big heals, or big abilities in general, have longer cast times or longer animations - because it balances them. So sure you can heal yourself with a big ability, but you need to have the time to do so - risk vs reward.
mcstackerson wrote: » Leukael wrote: » Leiloni wrote: » Generally a healer can't be a tank because they need to heal themselves to stay alive and getting hit while casting slows down or interrupts your cast (or the animation if it's an ability without a cast bar but which instead relies on the animation as the "cast bar"), depending on how it's designed. Even if your cast is only slowed down, it's often enough to prevent you from healing yourself up enough to stay alive if constantly getting hit. So you die eventually because you can't keep up. This is why big heals, or big abilities in general, have longer cast times or longer animations - because it balances them. So sure you can heal yourself with a big ability, but you need to have the time to do so - risk vs reward. That has always been my concern with pvp as a healer. I play a healer because I enjoy healing and supporting my teammates. The issue I have with pvp as a healer is you're by default a tank first. Whoever figures out how to solve that will be my hero. In mobas healers have a generous amount of cc and disengages to deal with that but I think in mmos it is awkward in that space for some reason from a balancing point maybe? I think the issue in a lot of MMOs is the role healers play in PvE means they need to be able to do a lot of healing. Since they are given a bunch of healing they need for PvE, you can't also then give them a bunch of CC on top of that. mobas don't have to worry about this. One of the things i'm kind of hoping for is for tanks (and everyone else) to play a larger role in their health management with tools like active block so heals can be toned down and healer's kits expanded.
Leiloni wrote: » Leukael wrote: » Leiloni wrote: » Generally a healer can't be a tank because they need to heal themselves to stay alive and getting hit while casting slows down or interrupts your cast (or the animation if it's an ability without a cast bar but which instead relies on the animation as the "cast bar"), depending on how it's designed. Even if your cast is only slowed down, it's often enough to prevent you from healing yourself up enough to stay alive if constantly getting hit. So you die eventually because you can't keep up. This is why big heals, or big abilities in general, have longer cast times or longer animations - because it balances them. So sure you can heal yourself with a big ability, but you need to have the time to do so - risk vs reward. That has always been my concern with pvp as a healer. I play a healer because I enjoy healing and supporting my teammates. The issue I have with pvp as a healer is you're by default a tank first. Whoever figures out how to solve that will be my hero. In mobas healers have a generous amount of cc and disengages to deal with that but I think in mmos it is awkward in that space for some reason from a balancing point maybe? I've played MMO healers who have their own CC's and disengages. There's no reason why we can't, here.
mcstackerson wrote: » I think the issue in a lot of MMOs is the role healers play in PvE means they need to be able to do a lot of healing. Since they are given a bunch of healing they need for PvE, you can't also then give them a bunch of CC on top of that. mobas don't have to worry about this. One of the things i'm kind of hoping for is for tanks (and everyone else) to play a larger role in their health management with tools like active block so heals can be toned down and healer's kits expanded.
Leukael wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » I think the issue in a lot of MMOs is the role healers play in PvE means they need to be able to do a lot of healing. Since they are given a bunch of healing they need for PvE, you can't also then give them a bunch of CC on top of that. mobas don't have to worry about this. One of the things i'm kind of hoping for is for tanks (and everyone else) to play a larger role in their health management with tools like active block so heals can be toned down and healer's kits expanded. Yeah very good overview on the general issue.
PenguinPaladin wrote: » I would say healers could be potent at healing, and have some cc if they couldn't also spec into damage.... its weird to me for a cleric to be a jack of all trades.... a healer with front line abilities instantly becomes a tank... so they can do everything. Unlike every other class.
Leukael wrote: » That has always been my concern with pvp as a healer. I play a healer because I enjoy healing and supporting my teammates. The issue I have with pvp as a healer is you're by default a tank first. Whoever figures out how to solve that will be my hero. In mobas healers have a generous amount of cc and disengages to deal with that but I think in mmos it is awkward in that space for some reason from a balancing point maybe?
Dygz wrote: » I mean... in Ashes... we will have some Tank/Clerics and some Cleric/Tanks. Maybe what you're hoping is that Cleric/Cleric will not be able to out tank a Tank/Tank??
PenguinPaladin wrote: » Dygz wrote: » I mean... in Ashes... we will have some Tank/Clerics and some Cleric/Tanks. Maybe what you're hoping is that Cleric/Cleric will not be able to out tank a Tank/Tank?? Im more concerned with: dps classes will not have the utility to provide support and healing. While the healing class cleric has a dps tree. I suport the segregation of roles, and dont feel the cleric should be able to do everything. But its more just a worry caused by how the classes seem uncertain, with them both trying to segregate roles, and saying the cleric has a dps tree, so really we just have to see how the classes really play out.
Leiloni wrote: » Or as we've seen, a lot of the damaging abilities they've shown so far double as other utility - HP/MP regen, debuffs, buffs, etc.
PenguinPaladin wrote: » Leiloni wrote: » Or as we've seen, a lot of the damaging abilities they've shown so far double as other utility - HP/MP regen, debuffs, buffs, etc. This is part of my concern. The cleric having skills that double as dps and utility, while the other classes do not. Again its not a major concern until we see the classes and their limitations. But seeing cleric be the best tank class in the alpha 1, and have ways to dps while getting mana back is a leading point of my concern. We'll see.
JamesSunderland wrote: » Healers in the PvP Context are usually the main enemy target to be taken down first for obvious reasons, forcing them to lean towards more defensive playstyles/builds to help them survive and to dissuade enemies from focusing them over squishier dps classes in their party, having a bodyguard in the form of an actual tank also helps this ideal of lessening this burden off of the healers shoulders. CCs are also an excelent survival tool for healers but it requires proper balance and for the CC to be of the correct types and limited to not become overpowered for the class, i believe Lineage 2 gave healers the most reasonable CC abilities that fit healers in the game context, mostly simple single target Sleep and slows. Having harder CCs on healers would cause balance issues without proper trade-off, same goes for healer's damage.
