NiKr wrote: » I see. Hope Ashes has some too, cause I feel like that could be a good skill-testing mechanic and make positioning gameplay even deeper.
Azherae wrote: » Just seeing this made my mind immediately start to race with possibilities as to how they intended to implement certain things, while still remaining 'fair' in Hybrid Combat. It is, in short, what made me start to think 'Wait this might be the thing I was waiting for'.
NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Would you agree with this? I, as a non-fighting game player, would agree with this cause I see fighting games as more of "know your opponent and try to predict his next moves" thing rather than "mash and pray" one.
Noaani wrote: » Would you agree with this?
Dygz wrote: » Which is not the way an RPG should be designed.
NiKr wrote: » But wouldn't you say that tab's rotations have the same mechanic?
Mag7spy wrote: » Also i shouldn't have to say this but i don't expect ashes to be like a fighting game at all lol. It is simply people wanting combat the best they can be for a mmorpg and throw their thoughts out. Fluid combat is always a good thing there is nothing wrong having some skills and dodges flow together at certain points.
Dygz wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Would you agree with this? I, as a non-fighting game player, would agree with this cause I see fighting games as more of "know your opponent and try to predict his next moves" thing rather than "mash and pray" one. Hmmmn. BDO combat feels like a Fighting Game combat to me. I had said Mortal Kombat. When I Googled BDO Hack N Slash - someone asked if BDO felt like a Hack N Slash and someone included Mortal Kombat as a representative of what it felt like to them as well. To me, BDO feels more like button mashing - not exactly like button mashing - but I say that because it doesn't really feel like I'm playing my class. It feels like I press sme buttons and mow shit down. As if I would mow shit down regardless of which buttons I press. When Mag7spy and Azhere say that BDO combat becomes more strategic during high level PvP - that again, sounds like a Fighting Game, like Mortal Kombat. You could win by button mashing, but better once you master the actual combos and know which character's combos work best against some other character's combos. Which is not the way an RPG should be designed.
Mag7spy wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » PenguinPaladin wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » PenguinPaladin wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » This is how I know you don't playing fighting games. -smh- So me saying "I don't play fighting games" tells you that I don't play fighting games? Seems good I mean, its a base line... at least we know if he manages to read something written out he is capable of putting 2 and 2 together. Like others have said, it seems english isnt their first language as they keep ignoring peoples statment purposes, and constantly loops back around to bdo is the best combat example out there. When people don't understand nuance and try to take things literal, and trying to throw a slight on top of it lmao. "Others" Someone assuming something they don't know Yes... we are assuming things we dont know... because geting clear information from you is proving to be impossible. Idk. Im done here, the guy is hard to talk to, so i dont see why to put forth the effort. You like bdo. Good for you. All the rest of this thread is just talking in circles, and misunderstanding. I hope the devs skim right over the responses. I trust them to make the proper combat system for Ashes even if it causes people to not play. Same they just need to make good combat and are on the right track for it as I was surprised.
Solvryn wrote: » PenguinPaladin wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » PenguinPaladin wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » This is how I know you don't playing fighting games. -smh- So me saying "I don't play fighting games" tells you that I don't play fighting games? Seems good I mean, its a base line... at least we know if he manages to read something written out he is capable of putting 2 and 2 together. Like others have said, it seems english isnt their first language as they keep ignoring peoples statment purposes, and constantly loops back around to bdo is the best combat example out there. When people don't understand nuance and try to take things literal, and trying to throw a slight on top of it lmao. "Others" Someone assuming something they don't know Yes... we are assuming things we dont know... because geting clear information from you is proving to be impossible. Idk. Im done here, the guy is hard to talk to, so i dont see why to put forth the effort. You like bdo. Good for you. All the rest of this thread is just talking in circles, and misunderstanding. I hope the devs skim right over the responses. I trust them to make the proper combat system for Ashes even if it causes people to not play.
PenguinPaladin wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » PenguinPaladin wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » This is how I know you don't playing fighting games. -smh- So me saying "I don't play fighting games" tells you that I don't play fighting games? Seems good I mean, its a base line... at least we know if he manages to read something written out he is capable of putting 2 and 2 together. Like others have said, it seems english isnt their first language as they keep ignoring peoples statment purposes, and constantly loops back around to bdo is the best combat example out there. When people don't understand nuance and try to take things literal, and trying to throw a slight on top of it lmao. "Others" Someone assuming something they don't know Yes... we are assuming things we dont know... because geting clear information from you is proving to be impossible. Idk. Im done here, the guy is hard to talk to, so i dont see why to put forth the effort. You like bdo. Good for you. All the rest of this thread is just talking in circles, and misunderstanding.
Mag7spy wrote: » PenguinPaladin wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » This is how I know you don't playing fighting games. -smh- So me saying "I don't play fighting games" tells you that I don't play fighting games? Seems good I mean, its a base line... at least we know if he manages to read something written out he is capable of putting 2 and 2 together. Like others have said, it seems english isnt their first language as they keep ignoring peoples statment purposes, and constantly loops back around to bdo is the best combat example out there. When people don't understand nuance and try to take things literal, and trying to throw a slight on top of it lmao. "Others" Someone assuming something they don't know
PenguinPaladin wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » This is how I know you don't playing fighting games. -smh- So me saying "I don't play fighting games" tells you that I don't play fighting games? Seems good I mean, its a base line... at least we know if he manages to read something written out he is capable of putting 2 and 2 together. Like others have said, it seems english isnt their first language as they keep ignoring peoples statment purposes, and constantly loops back around to bdo is the best combat example out there.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » This is how I know you don't playing fighting games. -smh- So me saying "I don't play fighting games" tells you that I don't play fighting games? Seems good
Mag7spy wrote: » This is how I know you don't playing fighting games. -smh-
Azherae wrote: » Dygz wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Would you agree with this? I, as a non-fighting game player, would agree with this cause I see fighting games as more of "know your opponent and try to predict his next moves" thing rather than "mash and pray" one. Hmmmn. BDO combat feels like a Fighting Game combat to me. I had said Mortal Kombat. When I Googled BDO Hack N Slash - someone asked if BDO felt like a Hack N Slash and someone included Mortal Kombat as a representative of what it felt like to them as well. To me, BDO feels more like button mashing - not exactly like button mashing - but I say that because it doesn't really feel like I'm playing my class. It feels like I press sme buttons and mow shit down. As if I would mow shit down regardless of which buttons I press. When Mag7spy and Azhere say that BDO combat becomes more strategic during high level PvP - that again, sounds like a Fighting Game, like Mortal Kombat. You could win by button mashing, but better once you master the actual combos and know which character's combos work best against some other character's combos. Which is not the way an RPG should be designed. All I ever ask of you is that you accept that this specific thing you 'assert' is born of ignorance. I don't even care if you continue to be 'the voice of the uninitiated', the one who speaks for those who do not have enough experience to see or think otherwise. Intrepid will make the decision depending on the discussions that result from that. Just don't keep repeating this aspect of it. It's simply not true. Not even a little bit true. It is the experience you have had, but not the core of the design. In this way your point is similar to Mag's type of point. It is true that an RPG should not be designed as you have just described but NOT true that an RPG should not be designed 'like a Fighting Game', because these are two separate things. Your perception of BDO is correct, and it is because of this that I tell you, and everyone else here, BDO is LESS like a fighting game than Ashes is ALREADY.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Dygz wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Would you agree with this? I, as a non-fighting game player, would agree with this cause I see fighting games as more of "know your opponent and try to predict his next moves" thing rather than "mash and pray" one. Hmmmn. BDO combat feels like a Fighting Game combat to me. I had said Mortal Kombat. When I Googled BDO Hack N Slash - someone asked if BDO felt like a Hack N Slash and someone included Mortal Kombat as a representative of what it felt like to them as well. To me, BDO feels more like button mashing - not exactly like button mashing - but I say that because it doesn't really feel like I'm playing my class. It feels like I press sme buttons and mow shit down. As if I would mow shit down regardless of which buttons I press. When Mag7spy and Azhere say that BDO combat becomes more strategic during high level PvP - that again, sounds like a Fighting Game, like Mortal Kombat. You could win by button mashing, but better once you master the actual combos and know which character's combos work best against some other character's combos. Which is not the way an RPG should be designed. All I ever ask of you is that you accept that this specific thing you 'assert' is born of ignorance. I don't even care if you continue to be 'the voice of the uninitiated', the one who speaks for those who do not have enough experience to see or think otherwise. Intrepid will make the decision depending on the discussions that result from that. Just don't keep repeating this aspect of it. It's simply not true. Not even a little bit true. It is the experience you have had, but not the core of the design. In this way your point is similar to Mag's type of point. It is true that an RPG should not be designed as you have just described but NOT true that an RPG should not be designed 'like a Fighting Game', because these are two separate things. Your perception of BDO is correct, and it is because of this that I tell you, and everyone else here, BDO is LESS like a fighting game than Ashes is ALREADY. So you are going on record a mmorpg should be designed like a fighting game as far as combat in concerned with skill use and movement.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Dygz wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Would you agree with this? I, as a non-fighting game player, would agree with this cause I see fighting games as more of "know your opponent and try to predict his next moves" thing rather than "mash and pray" one. Hmmmn. BDO combat feels like a Fighting Game combat to me. I had said Mortal Kombat. When I Googled BDO Hack N Slash - someone asked if BDO felt like a Hack N Slash and someone included Mortal Kombat as a representative of what it felt like to them as well. To me, BDO feels more like button mashing - not exactly like button mashing - but I say that because it doesn't really feel like I'm playing my class. It feels like I press sme buttons and mow shit down. As if I would mow shit down regardless of which buttons I press. When Mag7spy and Azhere say that BDO combat becomes more strategic during high level PvP - that again, sounds like a Fighting Game, like Mortal Kombat. You could win by button mashing, but better once you master the actual combos and know which character's combos work best against some other character's combos. Which is not the way an RPG should be designed. All I ever ask of you is that you accept that this specific thing you 'assert' is born of ignorance. I don't even care if you continue to be 'the voice of the uninitiated', the one who speaks for those who do not have enough experience to see or think otherwise. Intrepid will make the decision depending on the discussions that result from that. Just don't keep repeating this aspect of it. It's simply not true. Not even a little bit true. It is the experience you have had, but not the core of the design. In this way your point is similar to Mag's type of point. It is true that an RPG should not be designed as you have just described but NOT true that an RPG should not be designed 'like a Fighting Game', because these are two separate things. Your perception of BDO is correct, and it is because of this that I tell you, and everyone else here, BDO is LESS like a fighting game than Ashes is ALREADY. So you are going on record a mmorpg should be designed like a fighting game as far as combat in concerned with skill use and movement. It is only in your own mind that I would be opposed to this. It is only in your own mind that I disagree with you on the goal. That may be difficult to accept, but I am here arguing for more of it, yes, for at least my own capacity. You have a bit of a 'persecution complex', which I admit I have definitely not been successful at preventing. I am not against your concepts, I am against the way you make your arguments. Just stop misleading people. That's all I want.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Dygz wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Would you agree with this? I, as a non-fighting game player, would agree with this cause I see fighting games as more of "know your opponent and try to predict his next moves" thing rather than "mash and pray" one. Hmmmn. BDO combat feels like a Fighting Game combat to me. I had said Mortal Kombat. When I Googled BDO Hack N Slash - someone asked if BDO felt like a Hack N Slash and someone included Mortal Kombat as a representative of what it felt like to them as well. To me, BDO feels more like button mashing - not exactly like button mashing - but I say that because it doesn't really feel like I'm playing my class. It feels like I press sme buttons and mow shit down. As if I would mow shit down regardless of which buttons I press. When Mag7spy and Azhere say that BDO combat becomes more strategic during high level PvP - that again, sounds like a Fighting Game, like Mortal Kombat. You could win by button mashing, but better once you master the actual combos and know which character's combos work best against some other character's combos. Which is not the way an RPG should be designed. All I ever ask of you is that you accept that this specific thing you 'assert' is born of ignorance. I don't even care if you continue to be 'the voice of the uninitiated', the one who speaks for those who do not have enough experience to see or think otherwise. Intrepid will make the decision depending on the discussions that result from that. Just don't keep repeating this aspect of it. It's simply not true. Not even a little bit true. It is the experience you have had, but not the core of the design. In this way your point is similar to Mag's type of point. It is true that an RPG should not be designed as you have just described but NOT true that an RPG should not be designed 'like a Fighting Game', because these are two separate things. Your perception of BDO is correct, and it is because of this that I tell you, and everyone else here, BDO is LESS like a fighting game than Ashes is ALREADY. So you are going on record a mmorpg should be designed like a fighting game as far as combat in concerned with skill use and movement. It is only in your own mind that I would be opposed to this. It is only in your own mind that I disagree with you on the goal. That may be difficult to accept, but I am here arguing for more of it, yes, for at least my own capacity. You have a bit of a 'persecution complex', which I admit I have definitely not been successful at preventing. I am not against your concepts, I am against the way you make your arguments. Just stop misleading people. That's all I want. It is only in your own mind I'm misleading, I state fact that have to do with the concepts of the games dry and logical. Because it is at ends with your own thoughts rather then saying why something is wrong you say its misleading. Ie if every fighting game cc you with every hit, then for the combat to be better in a mmorpg it should follow closer to those lines. But for it to make sense for you, you need to think of a more illogical way to rationalize it so it makes sense with your narrative. I don't look at things like this is kind of similar, I look at how the exact systems work in the game as you can dress anything up in attempt to prove a point and to me that is more misleading.
Azherae wrote: » All I ever ask of you is that you accept that this specific thing you 'assert' is born of ignorance. I don't even care if you continue to be 'the voice of the uninitiated', the one who speaks for those who do not have enough experience to see or think otherwise. Intrepid will make the decision depending on the discussions that result from that. Just don't keep repeating this aspect of it. It's simply not true. Not even a little bit true. It is the experience you have had, but not the core of the design. In this way your point is similar to Mag's type of point. It is true that an RPG should not be designed as you have just described but NOT true that an RPG should not be designed 'like a Fighting Game', because these are two separate things. Your perception of BDO is correct, and it is because of this that I tell you, and everyone else here, BDO is LESS like a fighting game than Ashes is ALREADY.
NiKr wrote: » But wouldn't you say that tab's rotations have the same mechanic? You, in theory, can win pve/pvp by just using whatever abilities you have, but the higher the skill lvl goes the more you need to know proper combinations and order of button presses. So if you look at it just from the point of view of "you can either mash and win or be more strategical about it", then I'd say that both tab and action mmo have that. At least in L2 quite a few mid pvp players would usually just use 2-3 abilities that served them well and never really needed more than that, but once you got into more difficult matchups (be it 1vMany or a bad RPS matchup or fighting against a better-geared person) you needed to use more abilities and/or use them in the correct way/order.
Dygz wrote: » Azherae wrote: » All I ever ask of you is that you accept that this specific thing you 'assert' is born of ignorance. I don't even care if you continue to be 'the voice of the uninitiated', the one who speaks for those who do not have enough experience to see or think otherwise. Intrepid will make the decision depending on the discussions that result from that. Just don't keep repeating this aspect of it. It's simply not true. Not even a little bit true. It is the experience you have had, but not the core of the design. In this way your point is similar to Mag's type of point. It is true that an RPG should not be designed as you have just described but NOT true that an RPG should not be designed 'like a Fighting Game', because these are two separate things. Your perception of BDO is correct, and it is because of this that I tell you, and everyone else here, BDO is LESS like a fighting game than Ashes is ALREADY. Could be. But, I'm not the only one who expriences BDO the way I experience it. Even if they are two separate things - both of those separate things remain true. "Core design" is probably subjective...
Dygz wrote: » That probaby is trying to game an RPG as if it's a Fighting Game.
Dygz wrote: » I would argue that tab rotations is lazy RPG design - and should not be a design inspiration.
Azherae wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Azherae wrote: » All I ever ask of you is that you accept that this specific thing you 'assert' is born of ignorance. I don't even care if you continue to be 'the voice of the uninitiated', the one who speaks for those who do not have enough experience to see or think otherwise. Intrepid will make the decision depending on the discussions that result from that. Just don't keep repeating this aspect of it. It's simply not true. Not even a little bit true. It is the experience you have had, but not the core of the design. In this way your point is similar to Mag's type of point. It is true that an RPG should not be designed as you have just described but NOT true that an RPG should not be designed 'like a Fighting Game', because these are two separate things. Your perception of BDO is correct, and it is because of this that I tell you, and everyone else here, BDO is LESS like a fighting game than Ashes is ALREADY. Could be. But, I'm not the only one who expriences BDO the way I experience it. Even if they are two separate things - both of those separate things remain true. "Core design" is probably subjective... Well, that's fine, probably the best I can hope for, I guess. I'm probably just baselessly worrying that Ashes somehow has no one on staff able to clarify the truths of the specifics. If they have all the data and then choose that you're correct, so be it. But every time you say it, I'll have to respond with: "Button Mashing is not a core design of Fighting Games." Or rather, probably someone else will. Also, you're not usually one who argues that Core Design is subjective? Is this a change in your perspective? BDO balance patches and so forth explicitly detail 'in which ways they are changing things' relative to what I'm talking about. If the developers/patch notes say that something is being changed because of their design perspectives, should I not refer to that as Core Design?
SirChancelot wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Azherae wrote: » All I ever ask of you is that you accept that this specific thing you 'assert' is born of ignorance. I don't even care if you continue to be 'the voice of the uninitiated', the one who speaks for those who do not have enough experience to see or think otherwise. Intrepid will make the decision depending on the discussions that result from that. Just don't keep repeating this aspect of it. It's simply not true. Not even a little bit true. It is the experience you have had, but not the core of the design. In this way your point is similar to Mag's type of point. It is true that an RPG should not be designed as you have just described but NOT true that an RPG should not be designed 'like a Fighting Game', because these are two separate things. Your perception of BDO is correct, and it is because of this that I tell you, and everyone else here, BDO is LESS like a fighting game than Ashes is ALREADY. Could be. But, I'm not the only one who expriences BDO the way I experience it. Even if they are two separate things - both of those separate things remain true. "Core design" is probably subjective... Well, that's fine, probably the best I can hope for, I guess. I'm probably just baselessly worrying that Ashes somehow has no one on staff able to clarify the truths of the specifics. If they have all the data and then choose that you're correct, so be it. But every time you say it, I'll have to respond with: "Button Mashing is not a core design of Fighting Games." Or rather, probably someone else will. Also, you're not usually one who argues that Core Design is subjective? Is this a change in your perspective? BDO balance patches and so forth explicitly detail 'in which ways they are changing things' relative to what I'm talking about. If the developers/patch notes say that something is being changed because of their design perspectives, should I not refer to that as Core Design? Button mashing may not be a "core design" of fighting games, but I would definitely say the phrase is most closely tied to fighting games... It is possible to win in a fighting game by mashing buttons or just spamming the same attack over and over. There are some games where that would never work. I'm pretty sure I would never win a round of star craft if I just went ham on a controller.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Dygz wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Would you agree with this? I, as a non-fighting game player, would agree with this cause I see fighting games as more of "know your opponent and try to predict his next moves" thing rather than "mash and pray" one. Hmmmn. BDO combat feels like a Fighting Game combat to me. I had said Mortal Kombat. When I Googled BDO Hack N Slash - someone asked if BDO felt like a Hack N Slash and someone included Mortal Kombat as a representative of what it felt like to them as well. To me, BDO feels more like button mashing - not exactly like button mashing - but I say that because it doesn't really feel like I'm playing my class. It feels like I press sme buttons and mow shit down. As if I would mow shit down regardless of which buttons I press. When Mag7spy and Azhere say that BDO combat becomes more strategic during high level PvP - that again, sounds like a Fighting Game, like Mortal Kombat. You could win by button mashing, but better once you master the actual combos and know which character's combos work best against some other character's combos. Which is not the way an RPG should be designed. All I ever ask of you is that you accept that this specific thing you 'assert' is born of ignorance. I don't even care if you continue to be 'the voice of the uninitiated', the one who speaks for those who do not have enough experience to see or think otherwise. Intrepid will make the decision depending on the discussions that result from that. Just don't keep repeating this aspect of it. It's simply not true. Not even a little bit true. It is the experience you have had, but not the core of the design. In this way your point is similar to Mag's type of point. It is true that an RPG should not be designed as you have just described but NOT true that an RPG should not be designed 'like a Fighting Game', because these are two separate things. Your perception of BDO is correct, and it is because of this that I tell you, and everyone else here, BDO is LESS like a fighting game than Ashes is ALREADY. So you are going on record a mmorpg should be designed like a fighting game as far as combat in concerned with skill use and movement. It is only in your own mind that I would be opposed to this. It is only in your own mind that I disagree with you on the goal. That may be difficult to accept, but I am here arguing for more of it, yes, for at least my own capacity. You have a bit of a 'persecution complex', which I admit I have definitely not been successful at preventing. I am not against your concepts, I am against the way you make your arguments. Just stop misleading people. That's all I want. It is only in your own mind I'm misleading, I state fact that have to do with the concepts of the games dry and logical. Because it is at ends with your own thoughts rather then saying why something is wrong you say its misleading. Ie if every fighting game cc you with every hit, then for the combat to be better in a mmorpg it should follow closer to those lines. But for it to make sense for you, you need to think of a more illogical way to rationalize it so it makes sense with your narrative. I don't look at things like this is kind of similar, I look at how the exact systems work in the game as you can dress anything up in attempt to prove a point and to me that is more misleading. But fighting games don't 'CC you with every hit'. They have hits after which the attacker is NOT sufficiently plus for their combo to keep working. Most of them don't have OTG damage, meaning that as soon as the strike set ends you are invincible until you stand up again and many of them prevent there from being any ambiguity about what the defender does in that moment. Many change how plus you are based on whether or not your opponent hit with their move correctly, or if they counter hit. I am really not trying to make fun of you, but every time you say something like this, I have to correct you for the few people paying attention to all this that might need a deeper understanding. And for all such people... basically nothing Mag just said is true for many many reasons. Fighting games are entirely based on 'how much advantage you have after your opponent is hit' which determines what other moves you can safely use. Your opponent will either block or counter if you go for a move that takes longer to start than your last move 'CC'ed' them. Which in some cases is 'nearly any move' even if you HIT and were not blocked. I really don't want to have to teach fighting games to a bunch of people who only barely care just so that they're inoculated against your misleading statements, @Mag7spy , but I am definitely the sort of person that begrudgingly will. Seriously please just stop this.
