Mag7spy wrote: » Though if it releases and all the raids also have tons of random variation to the point you can't predict or make a guide for all the elements, in all their raids in the game. While making them difficult, each variation feeling like a unique mechanically challenging experience and not feeling generic you can come back and say I told you so and ill accept it. I expect there to be variation but these high end dungeons they make to be custom made and very challenging. Not something you can just throw random mechanics that feel completely different every time per death on top of it. Nor chaotic type content just to overly frustrate people, doesn't mean there won't be that one extremely hard dungeon out there but again time and resources are important.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There will be videos on everything in time. And Noaani's whole personality on this forum is built around being the person who'd have the ability to create such videos, while your entire personality is of the person who'd just wait for them instead of PARTICIPATING IN COMPETITIVE PVE to be the first one to release such a video You keep asking Noaani for video proof of boss complexity, but if, by any chance, Ashes has bosses that a difficult enough to wipe top lvl guilds several times over, you wouldn't be able to know about that complexity because you wouldn't be a part of such guilds, while Noaani would probably be the person who's gonna crack the boss. And because of that, competitively speaking, Noaani would be a better pver than you. You don't know this, though. Mag has never indicated an inability to do what is being discussed, if anything, the opposite. That it would be easy enough that following a guide would work, and if there were no guide, that Mag would create it. Mag also has an entire guild from New World to rely on. This sentiment is outright judging both their skill and their willingness to help (or even just willingness to share whatever monetization they can get from posting them) with no real basis, that I'm aware of? It would make more sense to view this as an opportunity to make strong allies far in advance, (if you were likely to play on the same server). While there is some merit to this, I dont think it really applies in this specific situation. Mag is on record as saying there is no PvE competition - you just follow a guide. Anyone with this attitude and blindness to basic things like how a guide is made is not someone that has participated in top end content of any type, in any game. Not only that, but they likely have never really associated with anyone that has. Not only have they not participated in top end content, they have never been "early" on any content. To take it one step further, not only have they not participated at the top end, nor been early on any content, but I would wager that Mag doesnt even know how far he even is from that edge, or how late he is on that content. It is very much a case of Mag not even knowing how much there is that he doesnt know between where he is now, and where you need to be in order to be at that top end position. Now, based on this, I am willing to make an assumption that any guild Mag has been in is hit functioning at the cutting edge of any game. To be fair though, this makes up 90%+ of all MMO gamers, so isnt a slight on Mag or his guild. What I would then say though, is that a guild that has never been at the cutting edge of a game is not likely to be at that cutting edge in a new game. While not impossible, it is very improbable. More shit talk, i can tell you're mad. I said it before I'll say it again pve isn't competitive. At this point I believe the 'competitive' being referred to is the 'race to be the first to make the video for the monetization'. Now, while you probably aren't interested in being the first to do it, you've already made the point that the first person to do it will probably make the most money from their channel, right? First most likely won't do it as it will be a super guild most likely on the elitist side. Will also take time for people to create based on what the mechanics will be and how things work. Ie if mobs swap what mobs swap, how does it effect the raid and such and people explaining what to look out for on all details. Average player experience by the time they start doing this content should have plenty of guides around. Never said I wouldn't be interested in doing it first, to be a top tier guild you need to be doing more so you can win those ow PvP fights and sieges. As well as going back and helping lower level guildies get gear to help with their progression. Right. I know that you're not talking about PvE World Firsts or things that elites do, but the average player, when you say that PvE isn't competitive. That's where the misunderstanding is. Elites talk about things in Elite terms, so there's competition there. I believe you've made it pretty clear what your opinion on elites is, too? I might be wrong.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There will be videos on everything in time. And Noaani's whole personality on this forum is built around being the person who'd have the ability to create such videos, while your entire personality is of the person who'd just wait for them instead of PARTICIPATING IN COMPETITIVE PVE to be the first one to release such a video You keep asking Noaani for video proof of boss complexity, but if, by any chance, Ashes has bosses that a difficult enough to wipe top lvl guilds several times over, you wouldn't be able to know about that complexity because you wouldn't be a part of such guilds, while Noaani would probably be the person who's gonna crack the boss. And because of that, competitively speaking, Noaani would be a better pver than you. You don't know this, though. Mag has never indicated an inability to do what is being discussed, if anything, the opposite. That it would be easy enough that following a guide would work, and if there were no guide, that Mag would create it. Mag also has an entire guild from New World to rely on. This sentiment is outright judging both their skill and their willingness to help (or even just willingness to share whatever monetization they can get from posting them) with no real basis, that I'm aware of? It would make more sense to view this as an opportunity to make strong allies far in advance, (if you were likely to play on the same server). While there is some merit to this, I dont think it really applies in this specific situation. Mag is on record as saying there is no PvE competition - you just follow a guide. Anyone with this attitude and blindness to basic things like how a guide is made is not someone that has participated in top end content of any type, in any game. Not only that, but they likely have never really associated with anyone that has. Not only have they not participated in top end content, they have never been "early" on any content. To take it one step further, not only have they not participated at the top end, nor been early on any content, but I would wager that Mag doesnt even know how far he even is from that edge, or how late he is on that content. It is very much a case of Mag not even knowing how much there is that he doesnt know between where he is now, and where you need to be in order to be at that top end position. Now, based on this, I am willing to make an assumption that any guild Mag has been in is hit functioning at the cutting edge of any game. To be fair though, this makes up 90%+ of all MMO gamers, so isnt a slight on Mag or his guild. What I would then say though, is that a guild that has never been at the cutting edge of a game is not likely to be at that cutting edge in a new game. While not impossible, it is very improbable. More shit talk, i can tell you're mad. I said it before I'll say it again pve isn't competitive. At this point I believe the 'competitive' being referred to is the 'race to be the first to make the video for the monetization'. Now, while you probably aren't interested in being the first to do it, you've already made the point that the first person to do it will probably make the most money from their channel, right? First most likely won't do it as it will be a super guild most likely on the elitist side. Will also take time for people to create based on what the mechanics will be and how things work. Ie if mobs swap what mobs swap, how does it effect the raid and such and people explaining what to look out for on all details. Average player experience by the time they start doing this content should have plenty of guides around. Never said I wouldn't be interested in doing it first, to be a top tier guild you need to be doing more so you can win those ow PvP fights and sieges. As well as going back and helping lower level guildies get gear to help with their progression.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There will be videos on everything in time. And Noaani's whole personality on this forum is built around being the person who'd have the ability to create such videos, while your entire personality is of the person who'd just wait for them instead of PARTICIPATING IN COMPETITIVE PVE to be the first one to release such a video You keep asking Noaani for video proof of boss complexity, but if, by any chance, Ashes has bosses that a difficult enough to wipe top lvl guilds several times over, you wouldn't be able to know about that complexity because you wouldn't be a part of such guilds, while Noaani would probably be the person who's gonna crack the boss. And because of that, competitively speaking, Noaani would be a better pver than you. You don't know this, though. Mag has never indicated an inability to do what is being discussed, if anything, the opposite. That it would be easy enough that following a guide would work, and if there were no guide, that Mag would create it. Mag also has an entire guild from New World to rely on. This sentiment is outright judging both their skill and their willingness to help (or even just willingness to share whatever monetization they can get from posting them) with no real basis, that I'm aware of? It would make more sense to view this as an opportunity to make strong allies far in advance, (if you were likely to play on the same server). While there is some merit to this, I dont think it really applies in this specific situation. Mag is on record as saying there is no PvE competition - you just follow a guide. Anyone with this attitude and blindness to basic things like how a guide is made is not someone that has participated in top end content of any type, in any game. Not only that, but they likely have never really associated with anyone that has. Not only have they not participated in top end content, they have never been "early" on any content. To take it one step further, not only have they not participated at the top end, nor been early on any content, but I would wager that Mag doesnt even know how far he even is from that edge, or how late he is on that content. It is very much a case of Mag not even knowing how much there is that he doesnt know between where he is now, and where you need to be in order to be at that top end position. Now, based on this, I am willing to make an assumption that any guild Mag has been in is hit functioning at the cutting edge of any game. To be fair though, this makes up 90%+ of all MMO gamers, so isnt a slight on Mag or his guild. What I would then say though, is that a guild that has never been at the cutting edge of a game is not likely to be at that cutting edge in a new game. While not impossible, it is very improbable. More shit talk, i can tell you're mad. I said it before I'll say it again pve isn't competitive. At this point I believe the 'competitive' being referred to is the 'race to be the first to make the video for the monetization'. Now, while you probably aren't interested in being the first to do it, you've already made the point that the first person to do it will probably make the most money from their channel, right?
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There will be videos on everything in time. And Noaani's whole personality on this forum is built around being the person who'd have the ability to create such videos, while your entire personality is of the person who'd just wait for them instead of PARTICIPATING IN COMPETITIVE PVE to be the first one to release such a video You keep asking Noaani for video proof of boss complexity, but if, by any chance, Ashes has bosses that a difficult enough to wipe top lvl guilds several times over, you wouldn't be able to know about that complexity because you wouldn't be a part of such guilds, while Noaani would probably be the person who's gonna crack the boss. And because of that, competitively speaking, Noaani would be a better pver than you. You don't know this, though. Mag has never indicated an inability to do what is being discussed, if anything, the opposite. That it would be easy enough that following a guide would work, and if there were no guide, that Mag would create it. Mag also has an entire guild from New World to rely on. This sentiment is outright judging both their skill and their willingness to help (or even just willingness to share whatever monetization they can get from posting them) with no real basis, that I'm aware of? It would make more sense to view this as an opportunity to make strong allies far in advance, (if you were likely to play on the same server). While there is some merit to this, I dont think it really applies in this specific situation. Mag is on record as saying there is no PvE competition - you just follow a guide. Anyone with this attitude and blindness to basic things like how a guide is made is not someone that has participated in top end content of any type, in any game. Not only that, but they likely have never really associated with anyone that has. Not only have they not participated in top end content, they have never been "early" on any content. To take it one step further, not only have they not participated at the top end, nor been early on any content, but I would wager that Mag doesnt even know how far he even is from that edge, or how late he is on that content. It is very much a case of Mag not even knowing how much there is that he doesnt know between where he is now, and where you need to be in order to be at that top end position. Now, based on this, I am willing to make an assumption that any guild Mag has been in is hit functioning at the cutting edge of any game. To be fair though, this makes up 90%+ of all MMO gamers, so isnt a slight on Mag or his guild. What I would then say though, is that a guild that has never been at the cutting edge of a game is not likely to be at that cutting edge in a new game. While not impossible, it is very improbable. More shit talk, i can tell you're mad. I said it before I'll say it again pve isn't competitive.
Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There will be videos on everything in time. And Noaani's whole personality on this forum is built around being the person who'd have the ability to create such videos, while your entire personality is of the person who'd just wait for them instead of PARTICIPATING IN COMPETITIVE PVE to be the first one to release such a video You keep asking Noaani for video proof of boss complexity, but if, by any chance, Ashes has bosses that a difficult enough to wipe top lvl guilds several times over, you wouldn't be able to know about that complexity because you wouldn't be a part of such guilds, while Noaani would probably be the person who's gonna crack the boss. And because of that, competitively speaking, Noaani would be a better pver than you. You don't know this, though. Mag has never indicated an inability to do what is being discussed, if anything, the opposite. That it would be easy enough that following a guide would work, and if there were no guide, that Mag would create it. Mag also has an entire guild from New World to rely on. This sentiment is outright judging both their skill and their willingness to help (or even just willingness to share whatever monetization they can get from posting them) with no real basis, that I'm aware of? It would make more sense to view this as an opportunity to make strong allies far in advance, (if you were likely to play on the same server). While there is some merit to this, I dont think it really applies in this specific situation. Mag is on record as saying there is no PvE competition - you just follow a guide. Anyone with this attitude and blindness to basic things like how a guide is made is not someone that has participated in top end content of any type, in any game. Not only that, but they likely have never really associated with anyone that has. Not only have they not participated in top end content, they have never been "early" on any content. To take it one step further, not only have they not participated at the top end, nor been early on any content, but I would wager that Mag doesnt even know how far he even is from that edge, or how late he is on that content. It is very much a case of Mag not even knowing how much there is that he doesnt know between where he is now, and where you need to be in order to be at that top end position. Now, based on this, I am willing to make an assumption that any guild Mag has been in is hit functioning at the cutting edge of any game. To be fair though, this makes up 90%+ of all MMO gamers, so isnt a slight on Mag or his guild. What I would then say though, is that a guild that has never been at the cutting edge of a game is not likely to be at that cutting edge in a new game. While not impossible, it is very improbable.
Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There will be videos on everything in time. And Noaani's whole personality on this forum is built around being the person who'd have the ability to create such videos, while your entire personality is of the person who'd just wait for them instead of PARTICIPATING IN COMPETITIVE PVE to be the first one to release such a video You keep asking Noaani for video proof of boss complexity, but if, by any chance, Ashes has bosses that a difficult enough to wipe top lvl guilds several times over, you wouldn't be able to know about that complexity because you wouldn't be a part of such guilds, while Noaani would probably be the person who's gonna crack the boss. And because of that, competitively speaking, Noaani would be a better pver than you. You don't know this, though. Mag has never indicated an inability to do what is being discussed, if anything, the opposite. That it would be easy enough that following a guide would work, and if there were no guide, that Mag would create it. Mag also has an entire guild from New World to rely on. This sentiment is outright judging both their skill and their willingness to help (or even just willingness to share whatever monetization they can get from posting them) with no real basis, that I'm aware of? It would make more sense to view this as an opportunity to make strong allies far in advance, (if you were likely to play on the same server).
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There will be videos on everything in time. And Noaani's whole personality on this forum is built around being the person who'd have the ability to create such videos, while your entire personality is of the person who'd just wait for them instead of PARTICIPATING IN COMPETITIVE PVE to be the first one to release such a video You keep asking Noaani for video proof of boss complexity, but if, by any chance, Ashes has bosses that a difficult enough to wipe top lvl guilds several times over, you wouldn't be able to know about that complexity because you wouldn't be a part of such guilds, while Noaani would probably be the person who's gonna crack the boss. And because of that, competitively speaking, Noaani would be a better pver than you.
Mag7spy wrote: » There will be videos on everything in time.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There will be videos on everything in time. And Noaani's whole personality on this forum is built around being the person who'd have the ability to create such videos, while your entire personality is of the person who'd just wait for them instead of PARTICIPATING IN COMPETITIVE PVE to be the first one to release such a video You keep asking Noaani for video proof of boss complexity, but if, by any chance, Ashes has bosses that a difficult enough to wipe top lvl guilds several times over, you wouldn't be able to know about that complexity because you wouldn't be a part of such guilds, while Noaani would probably be the person who's gonna crack the boss. And because of that, competitively speaking, Noaani would be a better pver than you. You don't know this, though. Mag has never indicated an inability to do what is being discussed, if anything, the opposite. That it would be easy enough that following a guide would work, and if there were no guide, that Mag would create it. Mag also has an entire guild from New World to rely on. This sentiment is outright judging both their skill and their willingness to help (or even just willingness to share whatever monetization they can get from posting them) with no real basis, that I'm aware of? It would make more sense to view this as an opportunity to make strong allies far in advance, (if you were likely to play on the same server). While there is some merit to this, I dont think it really applies in this specific situation. Mag is on record as saying there is no PvE competition - you just follow a guide. Anyone with this attitude and blindness to basic things like how a guide is made is not someone that has participated in top end content of any type, in any game. Not only that, but they likely have never really associated with anyone that has. Not only have they not participated in top end content, they have never been "early" on any content. To take it one step further, not only have they not participated at the top end, nor been early on any content, but I would wager that Mag doesnt even know how far he even is from that edge, or how late he is on that content. It is very much a case of Mag not even knowing how much there is that he doesnt know between where he is now, and where you need to be in order to be at that top end position. Now, based on this, I am willing to make an assumption that any guild Mag has been in is hit functioning at the cutting edge of any game. To be fair though, this makes up 90%+ of all MMO gamers, so isnt a slight on Mag or his guild. What I would then say though, is that a guild that has never been at the cutting edge of a game is not likely to be at that cutting edge in a new game. While not impossible, it is very improbable. More shit talk, i can tell you're mad. I said it before I'll say it again pve isn't competitive. At this point I believe the 'competitive' being referred to is the 'race to be the first to make the video for the monetization'. Now, while you probably aren't interested in being the first to do it, you've already made the point that the first person to do it will probably make the most money from their channel, right? First most likely won't do it as it will be a super guild most likely on the elitist side. Will also take time for people to create based on what the mechanics will be and how things work. Ie if mobs swap what mobs swap, how does it effect the raid and such and people explaining what to look out for on all details. Average player experience by the time they start doing this content should have plenty of guides around. Never said I wouldn't be interested in doing it first, to be a top tier guild you need to be doing more so you can win those ow PvP fights and sieges. As well as going back and helping lower level guildies get gear to help with their progression. Right. I know that you're not talking about PvE World Firsts or things that elites do, but the average player, when you say that PvE isn't competitive. That's where the misunderstanding is. Elites talk about things in Elite terms, so there's competition there. I believe you've made it pretty clear what your opinion on elites is, too? I might be wrong. World first is such a tiny amount of content I don't consider that to be competitive as they are just doing pve and have more time on their hands than others. Just because something isn't competitive doesn't mean the players are skilled, smart, well versed and have a good amount of time on their hands. Maybe if you time gated it and everyone had to do the dungeons at the same time without pvp interference, it would be more competitive but that still is only because other players are involved and could could say a form of pvp in a sense there. Take out the player element and you just have a coop game.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There will be videos on everything in time. And Noaani's whole personality on this forum is built around being the person who'd have the ability to create such videos, while your entire personality is of the person who'd just wait for them instead of PARTICIPATING IN COMPETITIVE PVE to be the first one to release such a video You keep asking Noaani for video proof of boss complexity, but if, by any chance, Ashes has bosses that a difficult enough to wipe top lvl guilds several times over, you wouldn't be able to know about that complexity because you wouldn't be a part of such guilds, while Noaani would probably be the person who's gonna crack the boss. And because of that, competitively speaking, Noaani would be a better pver than you. You don't know this, though. Mag has never indicated an inability to do what is being discussed, if anything, the opposite. That it would be easy enough that following a guide would work, and if there were no guide, that Mag would create it. Mag also has an entire guild from New World to rely on. This sentiment is outright judging both their skill and their willingness to help (or even just willingness to share whatever monetization they can get from posting them) with no real basis, that I'm aware of? It would make more sense to view this as an opportunity to make strong allies far in advance, (if you were likely to play on the same server). While there is some merit to this, I dont think it really applies in this specific situation. Mag is on record as saying there is no PvE competition - you just follow a guide. Anyone with this attitude and blindness to basic things like how a guide is made is not someone that has participated in top end content of any type, in any game. Not only that, but they likely have never really associated with anyone that has. Not only have they not participated in top end content, they have never been "early" on any content. To take it one step further, not only have they not participated at the top end, nor been early on any content, but I would wager that Mag doesnt even know how far he even is from that edge, or how late he is on that content. It is very much a case of Mag not even knowing how much there is that he doesnt know between where he is now, and where you need to be in order to be at that top end position. Now, based on this, I am willing to make an assumption that any guild Mag has been in is hit functioning at the cutting edge of any game. To be fair though, this makes up 90%+ of all MMO gamers, so isnt a slight on Mag or his guild. What I would then say though, is that a guild that has never been at the cutting edge of a game is not likely to be at that cutting edge in a new game. While not impossible, it is very improbable. More shit talk, i can tell you're mad. I said it before I'll say it again pve isn't competitive. At this point I believe the 'competitive' being referred to is the 'race to be the first to make the video for the monetization'. Now, while you probably aren't interested in being the first to do it, you've already made the point that the first person to do it will probably make the most money from their channel, right? First most likely won't do it as it will be a super guild most likely on the elitist side. Will also take time for people to create based on what the mechanics will be and how things work. Ie if mobs swap what mobs swap, how does it effect the raid and such and people explaining what to look out for on all details. Average player experience by the time they start doing this content should have plenty of guides around. Never said I wouldn't be interested in doing it first, to be a top tier guild you need to be doing more so you can win those ow PvP fights and sieges. As well as going back and helping lower level guildies get gear to help with their progression. Right. I know that you're not talking about PvE World Firsts or things that elites do, but the average player, when you say that PvE isn't competitive. That's where the misunderstanding is. Elites talk about things in Elite terms, so there's competition there. I believe you've made it pretty clear what your opinion on elites is, too? I might be wrong. World first is such a tiny amount of content I don't consider that to be competitive as they are just doing pve and have more time on their hands than others. Just because something isn't competitive doesn't mean the players are skilled, smart, well versed and have a good amount of time on their hands. Maybe if you time gated it and everyone had to do the dungeons at the same time without pvp interference, it would be more competitive but that still is only because other players are involved and could could say a form of pvp in a sense there. Take out the player element and you just have a coop game. Yeah, that's always been the part where you and Noaani don't 'meet in the middle'. Noaani is an Elite, talking about Elites, and you're the Everyman, standing up for the average player. You're probably never gonna agree, you're worlds apart in terms of what you're talking about. I also assume that when you were talking about the guides you would make, you meant for stuff like Tier2 raids, that the average player encounters, and not like, Tier 6 Elitist stuff. I agree that there will definitely be lots of guides for Tier2 raids. I think the most interesting part will be that the guides have to update as people get better at them and the underlying system starts adding more mechanics. But you know the Elites aren't gonna be the ones telling people about those until they've reached Tier4 or something...
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There will be videos on everything in time. And Noaani's whole personality on this forum is built around being the person who'd have the ability to create such videos, while your entire personality is of the person who'd just wait for them instead of PARTICIPATING IN COMPETITIVE PVE to be the first one to release such a video You keep asking Noaani for video proof of boss complexity, but if, by any chance, Ashes has bosses that a difficult enough to wipe top lvl guilds several times over, you wouldn't be able to know about that complexity because you wouldn't be a part of such guilds, while Noaani would probably be the person who's gonna crack the boss. And because of that, competitively speaking, Noaani would be a better pver than you. You don't know this, though. Mag has never indicated an inability to do what is being discussed, if anything, the opposite. That it would be easy enough that following a guide would work, and if there were no guide, that Mag would create it. Mag also has an entire guild from New World to rely on. This sentiment is outright judging both their skill and their willingness to help (or even just willingness to share whatever monetization they can get from posting them) with no real basis, that I'm aware of? It would make more sense to view this as an opportunity to make strong allies far in advance, (if you were likely to play on the same server). While there is some merit to this, I dont think it really applies in this specific situation. Mag is on record as saying there is no PvE competition - you just follow a guide. Anyone with this attitude and blindness to basic things like how a guide is made is not someone that has participated in top end content of any type, in any game. Not only that, but they likely have never really associated with anyone that has. Not only have they not participated in top end content, they have never been "early" on any content. To take it one step further, not only have they not participated at the top end, nor been early on any content, but I would wager that Mag doesnt even know how far he even is from that edge, or how late he is on that content. It is very much a case of Mag not even knowing how much there is that he doesnt know between where he is now, and where you need to be in order to be at that top end position. Now, based on this, I am willing to make an assumption that any guild Mag has been in is hit functioning at the cutting edge of any game. To be fair though, this makes up 90%+ of all MMO gamers, so isnt a slight on Mag or his guild. What I would then say though, is that a guild that has never been at the cutting edge of a game is not likely to be at that cutting edge in a new game. While not impossible, it is very improbable. More shit talk, i can tell you're mad. I said it before I'll say it again pve isn't competitive. At this point I believe the 'competitive' being referred to is the 'race to be the first to make the video for the monetization'. Now, while you probably aren't interested in being the first to do it, you've already made the point that the first person to do it will probably make the most money from their channel, right? First most likely won't do it as it will be a super guild most likely on the elitist side. Will also take time for people to create based on what the mechanics will be and how things work. Ie if mobs swap what mobs swap, how does it effect the raid and such and people explaining what to look out for on all details. Average player experience by the time they start doing this content should have plenty of guides around. Never said I wouldn't be interested in doing it first, to be a top tier guild you need to be doing more so you can win those ow PvP fights and sieges. As well as going back and helping lower level guildies get gear to help with their progression. Right. I know that you're not talking about PvE World Firsts or things that elites do, but the average player, when you say that PvE isn't competitive. That's where the misunderstanding is. Elites talk about things in Elite terms, so there's competition there. I believe you've made it pretty clear what your opinion on elites is, too? I might be wrong. World first is such a tiny amount of content I don't consider that to be competitive as they are just doing pve and have more time on their hands than others. Just because something isn't competitive doesn't mean the players are skilled, smart, well versed and have a good amount of time on their hands. Maybe if you time gated it and everyone had to do the dungeons at the same time without pvp interference, it would be more competitive but that still is only because other players are involved and could could say a form of pvp in a sense there. Take out the player element and you just have a coop game. Yeah, that's always been the part where you and Noaani don't 'meet in the middle'. Noaani is an Elite, talking about Elites, and you're the Everyman, standing up for the average player. You're probably never gonna agree, you're worlds apart in terms of what you're talking about. I also assume that when you were talking about the guides you would make, you meant for stuff like Tier2 raids, that the average player encounters, and not like, Tier 6 Elitist stuff. I agree that there will definitely be lots of guides for Tier2 raids. I think the most interesting part will be that the guides have to update as people get better at them and the underlying system starts adding more mechanics. But you know the Elites aren't gonna be the ones telling people about those until they've reached Tier4 or something... If I were to use my own experience it wouldn't really be a fair look at gameplay. When i played new world I had like 350 hours in a month. Its better to look at things as a whole then thinking of special content for .001% of people that won't even last very long as well just can't see that as competitive. It be like you going to some friends house and telling them to jump on a fighting game and you beat them and say you are the best fighting game player here and act very competitive over it. We will see how things play out, it being open dungeons will make things interesting . I'm unsure if they are going to stick to that or pull back from it and have different numbers of people for bosses. There is too many questions at the moment and not enough answers with actual gameplay shown to see how things will be done.
Mag7spy wrote: » We will see how things play out, it being open dungeons will make things interesting . I'm unsure if they are going to stick to that or pull back from it and have different numbers of people for bosses. There is too many questions at the moment and not enough answers with actual gameplay shown to see how things will be done.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There will be videos on everything in time. And Noaani's whole personality on this forum is built around being the person who'd have the ability to create such videos, while your entire personality is of the person who'd just wait for them instead of PARTICIPATING IN COMPETITIVE PVE to be the first one to release such a video You keep asking Noaani for video proof of boss complexity, but if, by any chance, Ashes has bosses that a difficult enough to wipe top lvl guilds several times over, you wouldn't be able to know about that complexity because you wouldn't be a part of such guilds, while Noaani would probably be the person who's gonna crack the boss. And because of that, competitively speaking, Noaani would be a better pver than you. You don't know this, though. Mag has never indicated an inability to do what is being discussed, if anything, the opposite. That it would be easy enough that following a guide would work, and if there were no guide, that Mag would create it. Mag also has an entire guild from New World to rely on. This sentiment is outright judging both their skill and their willingness to help (or even just willingness to share whatever monetization they can get from posting them) with no real basis, that I'm aware of? It would make more sense to view this as an opportunity to make strong allies far in advance, (if you were likely to play on the same server). While there is some merit to this, I dont think it really applies in this specific situation. Mag is on record as saying there is no PvE competition - you just follow a guide. Anyone with this attitude and blindness to basic things like how a guide is made is not someone that has participated in top end content of any type, in any game. Not only that, but they likely have never really associated with anyone that has. Not only have they not participated in top end content, they have never been "early" on any content. To take it one step further, not only have they not participated at the top end, nor been early on any content, but I would wager that Mag doesnt even know how far he even is from that edge, or how late he is on that content. It is very much a case of Mag not even knowing how much there is that he doesnt know between where he is now, and where you need to be in order to be at that top end position. Now, based on this, I am willing to make an assumption that any guild Mag has been in is hit functioning at the cutting edge of any game. To be fair though, this makes up 90%+ of all MMO gamers, so isnt a slight on Mag or his guild. What I would then say though, is that a guild that has never been at the cutting edge of a game is not likely to be at that cutting edge in a new game. While not impossible, it is very improbable. More shit talk, i can tell you're mad. I said it before I'll say it again pve isn't competitive. At this point I believe the 'competitive' being referred to is the 'race to be the first to make the video for the monetization'. Now, while you probably aren't interested in being the first to do it, you've already made the point that the first person to do it will probably make the most money from their channel, right? First most likely won't do it as it will be a super guild most likely on the elitist side. Will also take time for people to create based on what the mechanics will be and how things work. Ie if mobs swap what mobs swap, how does it effect the raid and such and people explaining what to look out for on all details. Average player experience by the time they start doing this content should have plenty of guides around. Never said I wouldn't be interested in doing it first, to be a top tier guild you need to be doing more so you can win those ow PvP fights and sieges. As well as going back and helping lower level guildies get gear to help with their progression. Right. I know that you're not talking about PvE World Firsts or things that elites do, but the average player, when you say that PvE isn't competitive. That's where the misunderstanding is. Elites talk about things in Elite terms, so there's competition there. I believe you've made it pretty clear what your opinion on elites is, too? I might be wrong. World first is such a tiny amount of content I don't consider that to be competitive as they are just doing pve and have more time on their hands than others. Just because something isn't competitive doesn't mean the players are skilled, smart, well versed and have a good amount of time on their hands. Maybe if you time gated it and everyone had to do the dungeons at the same time without pvp interference, it would be more competitive but that still is only because other players are involved and could could say a form of pvp in a sense there. Take out the player element and you just have a coop game. Yeah, that's always been the part where you and Noaani don't 'meet in the middle'. Noaani is an Elite, talking about Elites, and you're the Everyman, standing up for the average player. You're probably never gonna agree, you're worlds apart in terms of what you're talking about. I also assume that when you were talking about the guides you would make, you meant for stuff like Tier2 raids, that the average player encounters, and not like, Tier 6 Elitist stuff. I agree that there will definitely be lots of guides for Tier2 raids. I think the most interesting part will be that the guides have to update as people get better at them and the underlying system starts adding more mechanics. But you know the Elites aren't gonna be the ones telling people about those until they've reached Tier4 or something... If I were to use my own experience it wouldn't really be a fair look at gameplay. When i played new world I had like 350 hours in a month. Its better to look at things as a whole then thinking of special content for .001% of people that won't even last very long as well just can't see that as competitive. It be like you going to some friends house and telling them to jump on a fighting game and you beat them and say you are the best fighting game player here and act very competitive over it. We will see how things play out, it being open dungeons will make things interesting . I'm unsure if they are going to stick to that or pull back from it and have different numbers of people for bosses. There is too many questions at the moment and not enough answers with actual gameplay shown to see how things will be done. Well, just bear in mind that this is the type of player and designer that Steven is.There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.[4] – Steven Sharif This quote is literally him saying 'Sorry, some content will be Elites Only'. But obviously it is also saying that there will be a lot of content for the people you are standing in for.
Mag7spy wrote: » I agree there should be that kind of end game content so you have something to be challenged. But I'm talking about pve and being competitive, if we are talking about world first its such a tiny number and again can just be people with more time to throw at it and figure thing puzzles out and that amount that would be doing it is like i said .001 way below one percent, i prob should add more zeros but ya im going to bed now lol.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » We will see how things play out, it being open dungeons will make things interesting . I'm unsure if they are going to stick to that or pull back from it and have different numbers of people for bosses. There is too many questions at the moment and not enough answers with actual gameplay shown to see how things will be done. I think this is the important part that a lot of people seem to forget/disregard. If there's a super complex ow Boss out there and only one elite guild has been running it until they manage to finally beat him, literally all the other guilds will have no clue how they beat him (that is, if the elite guild manages to protect that info through pvp obviously). And now you have an elite guild that's even stronger because they're the only ones who can farm a boss. I think the discussion so far has been mainly about "there's several great guilds that are all running the bosses in parallel, trying to be the first ones to get it", while that will not be the case in Ashes (at least as of right now). Iirc Noaani said that EQ2 had ow Bosses too, but I thiiink they weren't that difficult? Or it was the other way around and they were so difficult due to being ow that no one beat them? I forget. But either way, in Ashes, competitive pve will directly influence competitive pvp. And that is my domain, which I'm very happy about
Azherae wrote: » That said, there is expected to be some instanced content in Ashes, and if I had to bet on EITHER the Instanced or the Open World bosses being the 'Tier 5-7', I'd actually assume the Instanced ones would be. Or that there was a ladder, where OW bosses are at Tier2, 4, 6, and are very Mitigation Check heavy, such that you need to succeed at the Tier 1, 3, 5, to have the defense gear required to stand up to them. Easy basic stagger design.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » That said, there is expected to be some instanced content in Ashes, and if I had to bet on EITHER the Instanced or the Open World bosses being the 'Tier 5-7', I'd actually assume the Instanced ones would be. Or that there was a ladder, where OW bosses are at Tier2, 4, 6, and are very Mitigation Check heavy, such that you need to succeed at the Tier 1, 3, 5, to have the defense gear required to stand up to them. Easy basic stagger design. Yeah, I expect Intrepid to either go back on that design decision or to go with smth like you described. They've said that instanced bosses won't be repeatable and won't give you BiS stuff though, so I dunno tbh. There's a ton of question when it comes to their pve promises. And the "only a few % of people can clear it" is probably the most problematic one cause there's just too many implications that come with it, and none of them really work in the context of what's widely accepted as top lvl pve content in mmos.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There will be videos on everything in time. And Noaani's whole personality on this forum is built around being the person who'd have the ability to create such videos, while your entire personality is of the person who'd just wait for them instead of PARTICIPATING IN COMPETITIVE PVE to be the first one to release such a video You keep asking Noaani for video proof of boss complexity, but if, by any chance, Ashes has bosses that a difficult enough to wipe top lvl guilds several times over, you wouldn't be able to know about that complexity because you wouldn't be a part of such guilds, while Noaani would probably be the person who's gonna crack the boss. And because of that, competitively speaking, Noaani would be a better pver than you. You don't know this, though. Mag has never indicated an inability to do what is being discussed, if anything, the opposite. That it would be easy enough that following a guide would work, and if there were no guide, that Mag would create it. Mag also has an entire guild from New World to rely on. This sentiment is outright judging both their skill and their willingness to help (or even just willingness to share whatever monetization they can get from posting them) with no real basis, that I'm aware of? It would make more sense to view this as an opportunity to make strong allies far in advance, (if you were likely to play on the same server). While there is some merit to this, I dont think it really applies in this specific situation. Mag is on record as saying there is no PvE competition - you just follow a guide. Anyone with this attitude and blindness to basic things like how a guide is made is not someone that has participated in top end content of any type, in any game. Not only that, but they likely have never really associated with anyone that has. Not only have they not participated in top end content, they have never been "early" on any content. To take it one step further, not only have they not participated at the top end, nor been early on any content, but I would wager that Mag doesnt even know how far he even is from that edge, or how late he is on that content. It is very much a case of Mag not even knowing how much there is that he doesnt know between where he is now, and where you need to be in order to be at that top end position. Now, based on this, I am willing to make an assumption that any guild Mag has been in is hit functioning at the cutting edge of any game. To be fair though, this makes up 90%+ of all MMO gamers, so isnt a slight on Mag or his guild. What I would then say though, is that a guild that has never been at the cutting edge of a game is not likely to be at that cutting edge in a new game. While not impossible, it is very improbable. More shit talk, i can tell you're mad. I said it before I'll say it again pve isn't competitive. At this point I believe the 'competitive' being referred to is the 'race to be the first to make the video for the monetization'. Now, while you probably aren't interested in being the first to do it, you've already made the point that the first person to do it will probably make the most money from their channel, right? First most likely won't do it as it will be a super guild most likely on the elitist side. Will also take time for people to create based on what the mechanics will be and how things work. Ie if mobs swap what mobs swap, how does it effect the raid and such and people explaining what to look out for on all details. Average player experience by the time they start doing this content should have plenty of guides around. Never said I wouldn't be interested in doing it first, to be a top tier guild you need to be doing more so you can win those ow PvP fights and sieges. As well as going back and helping lower level guildies get gear to help with their progression. Right. I know that you're not talking about PvE World Firsts or things that elites do, but the average player, when you say that PvE isn't competitive. That's where the misunderstanding is. Elites talk about things in Elite terms, so there's competition there. I believe you've made it pretty clear what your opinion on elites is, too? I might be wrong. World first is such a tiny amount of content I don't consider that to be competitive as they are just doing pve and have more time on their hands than others. Just because something isn't competitive doesn't mean the players are skilled, smart, well versed and have a good amount of time on their hands. Maybe if you time gated it and everyone had to do the dungeons at the same time without pvp interference, it would be more competitive but that still is only because other players are involved and could could say a form of pvp in a sense there. Take out the player element and you just have a coop game. Yeah, that's always been the part where you and Noaani don't 'meet in the middle'. Noaani is an Elite, talking about Elites, and you're the Everyman, standing up for the average player. You're probably never gonna agree, you're worlds apart in terms of what you're talking about. I also assume that when you were talking about the guides you would make, you meant for stuff like Tier2 raids, that the average player encounters, and not like, Tier 6 Elitist stuff. I agree that there will definitely be lots of guides for Tier2 raids. I think the most interesting part will be that the guides have to update as people get better at them and the underlying system starts adding more mechanics. But you know the Elites aren't gonna be the ones telling people about those until they've reached Tier4 or something... If I were to use my own experience it wouldn't really be a fair look at gameplay. When i played new world I had like 350 hours in a month. Its better to look at things as a whole then thinking of special content for .001% of people that won't even last very long as well just can't see that as competitive. It be like you going to some friends house and telling them to jump on a fighting game and you beat them and say you are the best fighting game player here and act very competitive over it. We will see how things play out, it being open dungeons will make things interesting . I'm unsure if they are going to stick to that or pull back from it and have different numbers of people for bosses. There is too many questions at the moment and not enough answers with actual gameplay shown to see how things will be done. Well, just bear in mind that this is the type of player and designer that Steven is.There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.[4] – Steven Sharif This quote is literally him saying 'Sorry, some content will be Elites Only'. But obviously it is also saying that there will be a lot of content for the people you are standing in for. I agree there should be that kind of end game content so you have something to be challenged. But I'm talking about pve and being competitive, if we are talking about world first its such a tiny number and again can just be people with more time to throw at it and figure thing puzzles out and that amount that would be doing it is like i said .001 way below one percent, i prob should add more zeros but ya im going to bed now lol.
Azherae wrote: » Hm? No, their system works. Or should I say 'my system works' and I just assume it's the same? This is a problem that is pretty common and I think the solution is known, which is another reason for my constant ragging on games like BDO. (basically, HOW did you fail this, you could literally 'read a guide for it'). Tier 1 is instanced and drops materials for armor. In Ashes, this armor would grant probably elemental or status defenses. Lots of people need armor. Very similar or exact same armor. Economy works, repairs work because lots of people run it, interesting mechanics, and since it can just be sold and isn't likely to be hoarded, it doesn't matter as much if you can't arrange to clear the T1, you can gear up experienced players with just money. Tier 2 is Open World, usually kills anyone without Armor from Tier1. There are 8-10x as many of these bosses as there are T1 Instanced bosses. They drop materials for WEAPONS and accessories, more targeted things that help specific Archetypes or builds. Players can target them and fight over them, but because they're spread out, this doesn't have to happen as much. Eventually a guild has all the 'Zavira's Fang' or whatever they need for their Spears, and either sell them or stop farming it so they can move on to farming something to make some other weapon. Tier 3 is back to Instanced, funneled in again, DPS and Mechanic Check heavy, you have to have T2 Weapons to clear it, or really good understanding of mechanics, otherwise you're stuck with trickle-down from whatever guilds can clear it. Drops materials for better armor/upgrades to current armor, to allow you to pass the T4 Mitigation checks. Again, you COULD just buy this off someone who can clear it, but that doesn't mean anything, your defense is better, but if you want better offense you still have to contest the T4 in Open World. Rinse and repeat until you're out of valid Mitigation Boosts. Result: 15-20 Instanced content across the "Odd Number Tiers". 70-80 OW content across the 'Even Number Tiers' that you can't survive being near for too long without the gear from the Odd Number Tiers. No direct wastes of time, you can just let the Odd Number Tiers drop MORE of the material when you're strong and quickly killing them. No downside to 'flooding the market with stronger armor' once people are past the general tier. If anything it's required, the more people HAVE the T3 Armor, the more 'T3 materials' the economy needs. Crafters rejoice. OW bosses work better because they're Mitigation Checks instead of DPS checks (which obv you can just throw more people at). I really don't expect Intrepid to have any problems implementing something at least similar.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Hm? No, their system works. Or should I say 'my system works' and I just assume it's the same? This is a problem that is pretty common and I think the solution is known, which is another reason for my constant ragging on games like BDO. (basically, HOW did you fail this, you could literally 'read a guide for it'). Tier 1 is instanced and drops materials for armor. In Ashes, this armor would grant probably elemental or status defenses. Lots of people need armor. Very similar or exact same armor. Economy works, repairs work because lots of people run it, interesting mechanics, and since it can just be sold and isn't likely to be hoarded, it doesn't matter as much if you can't arrange to clear the T1, you can gear up experienced players with just money. Tier 2 is Open World, usually kills anyone without Armor from Tier1. There are 8-10x as many of these bosses as there are T1 Instanced bosses. They drop materials for WEAPONS and accessories, more targeted things that help specific Archetypes or builds. Players can target them and fight over them, but because they're spread out, this doesn't have to happen as much. Eventually a guild has all the 'Zavira's Fang' or whatever they need for their Spears, and either sell them or stop farming it so they can move on to farming something to make some other weapon. Tier 3 is back to Instanced, funneled in again, DPS and Mechanic Check heavy, you have to have T2 Weapons to clear it, or really good understanding of mechanics, otherwise you're stuck with trickle-down from whatever guilds can clear it. Drops materials for better armor/upgrades to current armor, to allow you to pass the T4 Mitigation checks. Again, you COULD just buy this off someone who can clear it, but that doesn't mean anything, your defense is better, but if you want better offense you still have to contest the T4 in Open World. Rinse and repeat until you're out of valid Mitigation Boosts. Result: 15-20 Instanced content across the "Odd Number Tiers". 70-80 OW content across the 'Even Number Tiers' that you can't survive being near for too long without the gear from the Odd Number Tiers. No direct wastes of time, you can just let the Odd Number Tiers drop MORE of the material when you're strong and quickly killing them. No downside to 'flooding the market with stronger armor' once people are past the general tier. If anything it's required, the more people HAVE the T3 Armor, the more 'T3 materials' the economy needs. Crafters rejoice. OW bosses work better because they're Mitigation Checks instead of DPS checks (which obv you can just throw more people at). I really don't expect Intrepid to have any problems implementing something at least similar. Would such a huge stagger of gear work on the server scale though? Instanced content is not repeatable (at least rn) so you'd either have to give out waaaaay more gear per run than the raid required to clear the dungeon, or you'd make the dungeon easy enough for everyone to clear (which kinda defeats the point of instanced content being more complex). But even if you give a ton of gear per Odd dungeon, how much is truly "a ton"? Cause theoretically only some % of guilds would be able to beat said dungeon, while, again theoretically, you'd want everyone on the server to get that gear, but w/o repeatability of instanced dungeons you'd pretty much prevent most of the casuals from ever having that gear, let alone fighting against Even bosses. And this would be an even bigger problem if Intrepid does manage to have 50k players on some servers. I could maybe see "recipes as rewards" working out for this kind of system, but definitely not direct gear/mats.
Otr wrote: » Post #1023 Who is winning this thread?
NiKr wrote: » Otr wrote: » Post #1023 Who is winning this thread? No one. We all lose.
Azherae wrote: » There's multiple reasons why I'd assume 'not repeatable' isn't as strict as that. What happens when a guild has cleared it and then a new member joins who 'needs to clear it', for example? Presumably they need to be able to take a bunch of members who have cleared it before.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » There's multiple reasons why I'd assume 'not repeatable' isn't as strict as that. What happens when a guild has cleared it and then a new member joins who 'needs to clear it', for example? Presumably they need to be able to take a bunch of members who have cleared it before. Yeah, I came at it from the completely other side of "everything you need is available in the open world so instanced content is purely for the story's sake and not required at all if you don't care about the story". If that's what it means, then I'll be interested to see what they do, because the weird outcomes of 'yeah you need OW bosses to gear up Defense'... Well, let's just say that I know another game that tried that... I mean, I played a game like that for 12 years Not every piece of gear came from a boss, but bosses were definitely the fastest way of getting said gear, so if your guild was able to kill said boss - you, as a new player, would easily get what you need. I understand that this is not the experience of the predominant mmo gamer population (with wow/ff14 being the largest mmos to date and pretty much giving out their best gear through instances), but it can be done in a good way w/o relying on instances. Especially considering that Intrepid could look at what was good in L2 and what was bad in BDO and find the golden middle between them.
Azherae wrote: » To be clear, I don't know why Ashes has any instanced Content.
