I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

Noaani wrote: »

Yeah, but only one of them is correct.

Nah, even google has a real vague one. Mag and I (and some others) are just on the different sides of that definition.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you don't agree with the points above, what happened that made it not a competitive battle for all the times you went out and attacked people onto your grind spot?

Imo "competition" means a common goal that people fight for. Me fighting/killing someone on my way to somewhere has nothing to do with my goal. I just see a character that I can just kill and I do it. Sometimes they kill me, so it's not like I just dominate everyone I see. But the main point, there was nothing we were competing for.

But you think that just fighting for your life is "a competition". And that's where we disagree.

So your goal isn't to kill him and win to get to your grind spot deeper in the area?

You can have an opinion on what is competition to you but the surrounding elements of that fight still is competitive you are trying to win and so is he.

Mag7spy wrote: »

So your goal isn't to kill him and win to get to your grind spot deeper in the area?

He's not in my way. He's just farming his room and happens to be flagged for whatever reason. I'm just passing by and decide to kill him because he's flagged. It's as easy as that. There's no deeper motivation and nothing we're competing for.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

So your goal isn't to kill him and win to get to your grind spot deeper in the area?

He's not in my way. He's just farming his room and happens to be flagged for whatever reason. I'm just passing by and decide to kill him because he's flagged. It's as easy as that. There's no deeper motivation and nothing we're competing for.

You don't need to compete for a item or mobs for it to be competitive. If he is grinding the room and gets attack he is going to fight, if you are trying to get deeper into the area you aren't trying to die. You are pvping for fun to see what someone can do in the most positive light, so it is competitive. It doesn't need to be a tournament or have some deeper meaning for it to be competitive, two players are fighting each other. You have intent to win and so does he, it doesn't mean you need to win or come back and get revenge nor he.

Like I said, we have different definitions of competition

NiKr wrote: »

Like I said, we have different definitions of competition

I used your definition, I also said competitive not a competition so the latter is just a bonus. I just think you don't want to admit it is competitive for certain reasons

Mag7spy wrote: »

I used your definition, I also said competitive not a competition so the latter is just a bonus. I just think you don't want to admit it is competitive for certain reasons

To me "to win" is not a goal. The win is the result of competition. Competition can only take place when 2 different entities have the same goal (be it "kill a certain mob", "be the first to kill a boss", "be at the top of a leaderboard", "come somewhere first" etc). To me survival is not competitive. To you it isn't either btw, cause, if it was, you'd consider pve to be intrinsically competitive because you're always trying to survive in pve and "compete" with each mob you come across. But you keep telling everyone that you don't consider pve competitive, so me and another dude fighting for our survival can't be competitive either.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I used your definition, I also said competitive not a competition so the latter is just a bonus. I just think you don't want to admit it is competitive for certain reasons

To me "to win" is not a goal. The win is the result of competition. Competition can only take place when 2 different entities have the same goal (be it "kill a certain mob", "be the first to kill a boss", "be at the top of a leaderboard", "come somewhere first" etc). To me survival is not competitive. To it isn't either btw, cause, if it was, you'd consider pve to be intrinsically competitive because you're always trying to survive in pve and "compete" with each mob you come across. But you keep telling everyone that you don't consider pve competitive, so me and another dude fighting for our survival can't be competitive either.

You are fighting another player trying to win and he is trying to win, the conflict between you two by the definition it is competitive. You can't just change definitions because you feel you need to over commit to this. You trying to compare other people to ai in pvp is kind of disrespectful to them all.

No pve is AI, that is not competitive. Something being a challenge doesn't mean it is competitive. Can you just be honest with yourself, as a pvper you aren't trying to lose a fight, though it doesn't mean you are giving your all every fight...

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are fighting another player trying to win and he is trying to win, the conflict between you two by the definition it is competitive. You can't just change definitions because you feel you need to over commit to this. You trying to compare other people to ai in pvp is kind of disrespectful to them all.

Again, there was nothing to win in those fights. My target was fighting for survival, the same as they would against a mob, and I was just fighting them as I would've any other mob. Except a mob would've given me smth for beating him, while that player gave me literally nothing, even if he died. So if anything, pve is way more rewarding than pvp, hence it's more competitive.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are fighting another player trying to win and he is trying to win, the conflict between you two by the definition it is competitive. You can't just change definitions because you feel you need to over commit to this. You trying to compare other people to ai in pvp is kind of disrespectful to them all.

Again, there was nothing to win in those fights. My target was fighting for survival, the same as they would against a mob, and I was just fighting them as I would've any other mob. Except a mob would've given me smth for beating him, while that player gave me literally nothing, even if he died. So if anything, pve is way more rewarding than pvp, hence it's more competitive.

That doesn't mean it isn't competitive, if you are fighting for your survival between two players again that is competitive. Rewards don't have to have anything to do with something being competitive or a competition. Of course pve will be much more rewarding than PvP most of the time depending on the game.

As much as you try a mob (ai) and a person is not the same thing you can't compare the two together unless you are trying to disrespect them or have more of a elitist outlook.

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are fighting another player trying to win and he is trying to win, the conflict between you two by the definition it is competitive. You can't just change definitions because you feel you need to over commit to this. You trying to compare other people to ai in pvp is kind of disrespectful to them all.

Again, there was nothing to win in those fights. My target was fighting for survival, the same as they would against a mob, and I was just fighting them as I would've any other mob. Except a mob would've given me smth for beating him, while that player gave me literally nothing, even if he died. So if anything, pve is way more rewarding than pvp, hence it's more competitive.

That doesn't mean it isn't competitive, if you are fighting for your survival between two players again that is competitive. Rewards don't have to have anything to do with something being competitive or a competition. Of course pve will be much more rewarding than PvP most of the time depending on the game.

As much as you try a mob (ai) and a person is not the same thing you can't compare the two together unless you are trying to disrespect them or have more of a elitist outlook.

But we're elitists.

I literally build AI that is meant to mimic and surpass people.

You can ARGUE with Elites, but you can't also expect them to change to your AverageJoe attitude.

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are fighting another player trying to win and he is trying to win, the conflict between you two by the definition it is competitive. You can't just change definitions because you feel you need to over commit to this. You trying to compare other people to ai in pvp is kind of disrespectful to them all.

Again, there was nothing to win in those fights. My target was fighting for survival, the same as they would against a mob, and I was just fighting them as I would've any other mob. Except a mob would've given me smth for beating him, while that player gave me literally nothing, even if he died. So if anything, pve is way more rewarding than pvp, hence it's more competitive.

That doesn't mean it isn't competitive, if you are fighting for your survival between two players again that is competitive. Rewards don't have to have anything to do with something being competitive or a competition. Of course pve will be much more rewarding than PvP most of the time depending on the game.

As much as you try a mob (ai) and a person is not the same thing you can't compare the two together unless you are trying to disrespect them or have more of a elitist outlook.

But we're elitists.

I literally build AI that is meant to mimic and surpass people.

You can ARGUE with Elites, but you can't also expect them to change to your AverageJoe attitude.

If the ai surpassed humans skill it still wouldn't be competitive. all I see is there is a definition for two people battling each other where one survives and one dies and hearing the definition being changed so he can not admit it.

If the argument I don't see it as competitive because I don't see humans as humans that is where I'll most likely stop and we are pretty much almost there.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are fighting another player trying to win and he is trying to win, the conflict between you two by the definition it is competitive. You can't just change definitions because you feel you need to over commit to this. You trying to compare other people to ai in pvp is kind of disrespectful to them all.

Again, there was nothing to win in those fights. My target was fighting for survival, the same as they would against a mob, and I was just fighting them as I would've any other mob. Except a mob would've given me smth for beating him, while that player gave me literally nothing, even if he died. So if anything, pve is way more rewarding than pvp, hence it's more competitive.

That doesn't mean it isn't competitive, if you are fighting for your survival between two players again that is competitive. Rewards don't have to have anything to do with something being competitive or a competition. Of course pve will be much more rewarding than PvP most of the time depending on the game.

As much as you try a mob (ai) and a person is not the same thing you can't compare the two together unless you are trying to disrespect them or have more of a elitist outlook.

But we're elitists.

I literally build AI that is meant to mimic and surpass people.

You can ARGUE with Elites, but you can't also expect them to change to your AverageJoe attitude.

If the ai surpassed humans skill it still wouldn't be competitive. all I see is there is a definition for two people battling each other where one survives and one dies and hearing the definition being changed so he can not admit it.

If the argument I don't see it as competitive because I don't see humans as humans that is where I'll most likely stop and we are pretty much almost there.

If you can tell the difference between my AI and a real person, either I have failed, or you can tell because the AI is better and since most people aren't that good at stuff, it seems too suspiciously good.

I have this problem with my chatbots, I had to downgrade some of their vocabulary systems because they eventually give themselves away by making too much sense.

It's just funny to me because of the precision of the argument being applied with me specifically around. Kind of weird, huh? I feel like this has happened more than once on this forum, too...

JustVine

Premise 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_(gymnastics) this sport is competitive. Even if players do not perform at the same time. You measure scores at the end to determine the winner.

Premise 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_race this sport is also competitive. Even if it is a team sport, everyone's performances effect the end outcome. A winning team is declared by whatever team collectively gets the best time.

Premise 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrun Speedrunning is just an electronic version of a race.

Premise 4: You do not need to race someone at the same time for the time to be measured against one another and a winner to be declared if Premise 1 is true. So if you accept Premise 3 speedruns can be seen as a race between one or multiple people at any given time.

Premise 5: mmo raids can be speedrun.

Premise 6: mmo raids can be like relay races in that how well one person performs effects the teams completion time

Conclusion: mmo raids can be competitive.

Tell me which premises you disagree with please.

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

if you are fighting for your survival between two players again that is competitive.

Is this the only definition of competitive in your mind?

Because both the Mirriam-Webster and Oxford dictionaries each give 3 definitions for the word.

So, are you saying you are more of a primary source than The Oxford Dictionary?

Anyways right, so as to not derail.

Yes, at least I'm an elitist, there's a ton of instances of it, AI are cooler and better challenges than real people, etc.

Noaani

Azherae wrote: »

Anyways right, so as to not derail.

Yes, at least I'm an elitist, there's a ton of instances of it, AI are cooler and better challenges than real people, etc.

Indeed they are.

AI is better at chess, LoL and even GO! than people are.

Sure, MMO's may not have that level of AI, but AI in general is better than people at basically everything now.

JustVine wrote: »

Premise 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_(gymnastics) this sport is competitive. Even if players do not perform at the same time. You measure scores at the end to determine the winner.

Premise 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_race this sport is also competitive. Even if it is a team sport, everyone's performances effect the end outcome. A winning team is declared by whatever team collectively gets the best time.

Premise 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrun Speedrunning is just an electronic version of a race.

Premise 4: You do not need to race someone at the same time for the time to be measured against one another and a winner to be declared if Premise 1 is true. So if you accept Premise 3 speedruns can be seen as a race between one or multiple people at any given time.

Premise 5: mmo raids can be speedrun.

Premise 6: mmo raids can be like relay races in that how well one person performs effects the teams completion time

Conclusion: mmo raids can be competitive.

Tell me which premises you disagree with please.

As far as gymnastics goes people are competing directly against each other, same with racing using their own body in something that is undetermined.

So ill get to the important part again with 5+.

First off there are guides so you know exactly what to do. There is a challenge at hand but you are simply following what people have done before you already copying some elements or trying some new elements to do it a little bit faster. What you are fighting is also AI and not a player so there is no direct relation player vrs player. (I'm assuming you are going to try to rebuttal with racing but its not the same thing as racers aren't solving a puzzle and that puzzle in a mmorpg has already been solved in terms speedruns.).

Players simply doing what they know they need to do in how a guide explains isn't competitive as you are fighting AI and not a human. You know the challenge and are simply trying some new things in order to get a slightly faster time. You aren't trying to overcome the challenge that is the mind / body / reaction of another you are simply fighting some AI with a set puzzles you need to overcome as well with a good dose of RNG.