(Please read full post)Bow arrow limited arrow supply idea like Ghost of Tsushima Legends

Hopefully this mmo will be unique with a survival aspect where we can have limited arrows and different arrow types. We should then retrieve some arrows after killing enemies.
HERE IS THE CATCH
Ghost of tsushima online multiplayer did a good balance of bow arrow mix with mmo style. The regular arrows were limited and obtained from crafting, buying or loot. The special ability arrows were unlimited like mmo archery skills. They have to be recharged or require build up Guage.

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unknownsystemerror

Has yet to be decided.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3WrvtnSMiM&t=4428s&ab_channel=AshesofCreation

Ohmib0d

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

Has yet to be decided.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3WrvtnSMiM&t=4428s&ab_channel=AshesofCreation

Hopefully they do it like this though. Its a good in between to cater towards different fanbase. Regular arrows attacks are faster but limited supply and can't spam. Requires strategy and thoughtful use. Skill archery is unlimited but charges so takes little time. Balance and choice to chose creating consequence leading to meaningful game design choice

Mag7spy

I dont think this would be good for a class that focuses on a bow it be giving them a extra cost where other classes don't have it. If you want skill to be involved it better that you just have to aim your shots.

Ohmib0d

Mag7spy wrote: »

I dont think this would be good for a class that focuses on a bow it be giving them a extra cost where other classes don't have it. If you want skill to be involved it better that you just have to aim your shots.

There is no extra cost. Bow class would have more advantage their magic archery abilities recharge infinitely and faster as you lv up and they unlock more skills. Both archery Non archery class can still equip regular bow but have little to no magic arrow skills just regular ammo for simple range attack

Mag7spy

Ohmib0d wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I dont think this would be good for a class that focuses on a bow it be giving them a extra cost where other classes don't have it. If you want skill to be involved it better that you just have to aim your shots.

There is no extra cost. Bow class would have more advantage their magic archery abilities recharge infinitely and faster as you lv up and they unlock more skills. Both archery Non archery class can still equip regular bow but have little to no magic arrow skills just regular ammo for simple range attack

When you are in a siege and you run out of arrows it will be very annoying. It is something that more is a hinderance so someone cant shoot infinite arrows for certain reasons in certain games.

Id be fien with a arrow slow but id view it as more of like your offhand weapon with the bow, so you have your bow in main hand and arrow in offhand that can have different effects and such. Rather than a class being like im out of arrows guys i need to go back to town now. If this was a survival game or shooter sure, but i dont see a positive reason in a mmorpg to hinder them shooting arrows.

Ohmib0d

Mag7spy wrote: »

Ohmib0d wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I dont think this would be good for a class that focuses on a bow it be giving them a extra cost where other classes don't have it. If you want skill to be involved it better that you just have to aim your shots.

There is no extra cost. Bow class would have more advantage their magic archery abilities recharge infinitely and faster as you lv up and they unlock more skills. Both archery Non archery class can still equip regular bow but have little to no magic arrow skills just regular ammo for simple range attack

When you are in a siege and you run out of arrows it will be very annoying. It is something that more is a hinderance so someone cant shoot infinite arrows for certain reasons in certain games.

Id be fien with a arrow slow but id view it as more of like your offhand weapon with the bow, so you have your bow in main hand and arrow in offhand that can have different effects and such. Rather than a class being like im out of arrows guys i need to go back to town now. If this was a survival game or shooter sure, but i dont see a positive reason in a mmorpg to hinder them shooting arrows.

DID YOU NOT READ MY POST??!!Archery class don't run out of arrows. They can use regular arrows wich is faster but limited or they can infinitely recharge magic arrow skills like other mmo. Every other class can equip a basic bow as a Secondary weapon for range attack but they still have their main weapon incase they are low on arrows. My title explicitly stated that it's based off of ghost of tsushima legends and it works tested and proven. Every archer class in that game has limited arrows but also special arrow ability that's unlimited. Non archery class have limited arrows but they have their own main weapon as backup

Ludullu

L2 had limited arrows. My brightest memory about my days playing an archer was when I was challenged to a duel by another archer. We go out of town to fight, another person does the count for us to start the fight and just as the finish the count I realize that I forgot to stock up on arrows. I do 2 plain shots and run out of arrows. Luckily L2 allowed you to use skills w/o arrows. I managed to win that pvp purely through skill use, even though L2's archers mainly won their pvps by getting a huge crit on their autoattacks.

But even though that was a fun interaction, I personally wouldn't want to have that in Ashes.

Ohmib0d

NiKr wrote: »

L2 had limited arrows. My brightest memory about my days playing an archer was when I was challenged to a duel by another archer. We go out of town to fight, another person does the count for us to start the fight and just as the finish the count I realize that I forgot to stock up on arrows. I do 2 plain shots and run out of arrows. Luckily L2 allowed you to use skills w/o arrows. I managed to win that pvp purely through skill use, even though L2's archers mainly won their pvps by getting a huge crit on their autoattacks.

But even though that was a fun interaction, I personally wouldn't want to have that in Ashes.

Were the skills without arrows like archery skills that shoot some magic arrows or just non related archery skills?

Talents

Should not be a thing.

If bow users need to have consumable to use their weapon then other weapon users should need to have consumables to use theirs too. Gimping 1 weapon type by requiring them to have consumables is dumb as fuck and I hate it in any game that's done it.

Warth

Talents wrote: »

Should not be a thing.

If bow users need to have consumable to use their weapon then other weapon users should need to have consumables to use theirs too. Gimping 1 weapon type by requiring them to have consumables is dumb as fuck and I hate it in any game that's done it.

"If one class has it, then all other classes need to have it" is the flawed mentality Blizzard has been applying to their game for the last decade.

So i don't think that's a good argument. This could easily be offset with other perks (like lower repair costs).

With this being said, arrow supplies have never been a system I have enjoyed. Even less so in a game with limited fast travel. Running out of ammo would royally suck if you were somewhere distant.

Ohmib0d

Talents wrote: »

Should not be a thing.

If bow users need to have consumable to use their weapon then other weapon users should need to have consumables to use theirs too. Gimping 1 weapon type by requiring them to have consumables is dumb as fuck and I hate it in any game that's done it.

Did you read my full post? I didn't say bow users were screwed because of consumable.

Ohmib0d

Warth wrote: »

Talents wrote: »

Should not be a thing.

If bow users need to have consumable to use their weapon then other weapon users should need to have consumables to use theirs too. Gimping 1 weapon type by requiring them to have consumables is dumb as fuck and I hate it in any game that's done it.

"If one class has it, then all other classes need to have it" is the flawed mentality Blizzard has been applying to their game for the last decade.

So i don't think that's a good argument. This could easily be offset with other perks (like lower repair costs).

With this being said, arrow supplies have never been a system I have enjoyed. Even less so in a game with limited fast travel. Running out of ammo would royally suck if you were somewhere distant.

Did you read my full post even? I provided a solution and even have proof of a game it worked in

Ludullu

Ohmib0d wrote: »

Were the skills without arrows like archery skills that shoot some magic arrows or just non related archery skills?

Yeah, magic arrows and shit.

Ohmib0d

NiKr wrote: »

Ohmib0d wrote: »

Were the skills without arrows like archery skills that shoot some magic arrows or just non related archery skills?

Yeah, magic arrows and shit.

Don't they recharge at certain rate and cool down cost can go down when you rank up? The idea of limited arrow helps so any class can equip bow as secondary range with limited arrow but main archery class can do more with it like magic arrow etc

Technically archery class shouldn't rely on ammo arrow but the magic arrows and the lower skills should charge at decent rate

Ludullu

Ohmib0d wrote: »

Did you read my full post even? I provided a solution and even have proof of a game it worked in

Your solution doesn't quite work for Ashes because, at least so far, the design seem to value basic attacks quite a lot (similar to how L2 did). So if you make basic attacks rely on limited resources - you're dooming archers to spend more money than other classes.

And the AoC's feature of "anyone can wear anything" doesn't quite apply here because Archers will have passive weapon skills that will boost their bow dmg (and quite likely rely a lot on basic attacks), so Archers will most likely run around with bows as their main weapon and use their basic attacks as a big part of their dps. And if they need to spend money to be a dps - they'll be the least popular dps because of that.

Yes, you could "balance it" by lowering repair costs or maybe giving a small boost to some of their stats/attacks/arrows, but any change to the bow itself would influence other classes that might utilize a bow (for me a tank is the first thing that comes to mind), while boosting the archetype's side of the equation might bring more imbalanced to an already difficult balancing act that Intrepid has to execute when it comes to designing their classes in such a manner where one of them doesn't just own every other class.

Elder

I have some questions if you don't mind.

Would this proposal be exclusive to the ranger archetype or anyone with a bow equipped?

Would these "arrow types" be consumed during skills, the basic weapon attacks or both?

Do the "arrow types" have a downside or would they be purely beneficial?

Ohmib0d

NiKr wrote: »

Ohmib0d wrote: »

Did you read my full post even? I provided a solution and even have proof of a game it worked in

Your solution doesn't quite work for Ashes because, at least so far, the design seem to value basic attacks quite a lot (similar to how L2 did). So if you make basic attacks rely on limited resources - you're dooming archers to spend more money than other classes.

And the AoC's feature of "anyone can wear anything" doesn't quite apply here because Archers will have passive weapon skills that will boost their bow dmg (and quite likely rely a lot on basic attacks), so Archers will most likely run around with bows as their main weapon and use their basic attacks as a big part of their dps. And if they need to spend money to be a dps - they'll be the least popular dps because of that.

Yes, you could "balance it" by lowering repair costs or maybe giving a small boost to some of their stats/attacks/arrows, but any change to the bow itself would influence other classes that might utilize a bow (for me a tank is the first thing that comes to mind), while boosting the archetype's side of the equation might bring more imbalanced to an already difficult balancing act that Intrepid has to execute when it comes to designing their classes in such a manner where one of them doesn't just own every other class.

1st off i provided solutions if you even read my post

1. Archery don't rely on arrow ammo but arrows are just a faster alternative to provide quick and explosive or poison arrow

2. Archery still have magic arrows that use magic points and have a cool down recharge like other mmo

3. I did state that after kill enemies archeries can loot some quantity of arrows so they don't have to keep going to buy more

Lastly you could make arrows cheap and come in high quantity when purchased. And yes there can be a crafting system to quickly craft basic arrows in large amount. Archery can craft faster or more, craft different ammo, and do more damage with regular ammo

Ohmib0d

Elder wrote: »

I have some questions if you don't mind.

Would this proposal be exclusive to the ranger archetype or anyone with a bow equipped?

Would these "arrow types" be used during skills, the basic weapon attacks or both?

Do the "arrow types" have a downside or would they be purely beneficial?

For an archery class, there are no limited supplies or requirements when using special magic arrow skills. It's a cool down like other mmo. The regular arrows can be used by both archer and non archery but are limited quantity and not a skill attack . Regular arrows have no cool down but limited amount but can be crafted or retrieved after killing enemies. Regular arrows are not consumed in special skill archery moves . Archery can craft and create ammo arrows for quick stun effect like poison arrow or explosive. The archery class special arrows are not limited supply ammo like regular arrows but use magic cooldown and do different kinds of attack or status effect

Mag7spy

Ohmib0d wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Ohmib0d wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I dont think this would be good for a class that focuses on a bow it be giving them a extra cost where other classes don't have it. If you want skill to be involved it better that you just have to aim your shots.

There is no extra cost. Bow class would have more advantage their magic archery abilities recharge infinitely and faster as you lv up and they unlock more skills. Both archery Non archery class can still equip regular bow but have little to no magic arrow skills just regular ammo for simple range attack

When you are in a siege and you run out of arrows it will be very annoying. It is something that more is a hinderance so someone cant shoot infinite arrows for certain reasons in certain games.

Id be fien with a arrow slow but id view it as more of like your offhand weapon with the bow, so you have your bow in main hand and arrow in offhand that can have different effects and such. Rather than a class being like im out of arrows guys i need to go back to town now. If this was a survival game or shooter sure, but i dont see a positive reason in a mmorpg to hinder them shooting arrows.

DID YOU NOT READ MY POST??!!Archery class don't run out of arrows. They can use regular arrows wich is faster but limited or they can infinitely recharge magic arrow skills like other mmo. Every other class can equip a basic bow as a Secondary weapon for range attack but they still have their main weapon incase they are low on arrows. My title explicitly stated that it's based off of ghost of tsushima legends and it works tested and proven. Every archer class in that game has limited arrows but also special arrow ability that's unlimited. Non archery class have limited arrows but they have their own main weapon as backup

I'm saying I don't agree with being able to run out of arrow unless they are getting a huge damage boost for the inconvenience. There is no gameplay reason why you should run out of arrows.

Ludullu

Ohmib0d wrote: »

1. Archery don't rely on arrow ammo but arrows are just a faster alternative to provide quick and explosive or poison arrow

Except they will because that is how combat in Ashes works (as of rn at least). Basic attacks are valued, so if your basic attacks require money to execute - you're at a disadvantage against other classes.

Ohmib0d wrote: »

2. Archery still have magic arrows that use magic points and have a cool down recharge like other mmo

Except you have limited mana so your magic arrows are not unlimited. And usually they'll be way more limited than your basic attacks, even if the arrows for the basic attacks are limited.

Ohmib0d wrote: »

3. I did state that after kill enemies archeries can loot some quantity of arrows so they don't have to keep going to buy more

Ashes won't be a survival game though. If you, as an archer, are fighting in a party and see enemy parties coming towards you - you gonna kite them. You'll spend a ton of arrows w/o an ability to get back to all the people you've shot to pick them up, because those people will just respawn or get resurrected in the fight.

Ohmib0d wrote: »

Lastly you could make arrows cheap and come in high quantity when purchased. And yes there can be a crafting system to quickly craft basic arrows in large amount. Archery can craft faster or more, craft different ammo, and do more damage with regular ammo

If the cost is so low - why even have it? And if you have huge amounts of them already - why limit it in the first place?

Also, AoC's crafting system won't be as easy as you make it out to be. If Intrepid do decide to go down the path of limited arrows, it'll either be a shop-bought thing or a specialized crafter thing (could also be both). And unless the archer himself went down the crafter branch of artisanry - he probably won't be able to craft good arrows for himself.

And even if you circumvent the crafting system just to let archers make their own arrows - they'll still need some resource to make them out of. And that resource will cost money. It was this way in L2 too.

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