NiKr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » Ever thought of potions being limited but after a while you have high amount and the cost go down as you get more money? Except most of the time the higher in lvl you go the better and more expensive potions you get, so they never really "just become cheap". Ohmib0d wrote: » Limitation helps avoid spam and non archery class from being primary arrow. Also, the high amount of arrow obtained will be useful for grind or weaker enemy for fast grind What spam? Archers will just shoot arrows the same way they would with unlimited arrows. Literally nothing changes except for the money requirement. And no, other classes won't magically become better than archers at using the bow if arrows are unlimited. Archers will have weapon skills for bows so they'll always be better at using a And again I ask: why have it cost anything if you mean to make the cost nothing? You're adding unnecessary steps to a perfectly fine and working system.
Ohmib0d wrote: » Ever thought of potions being limited but after a while you have high amount and the cost go down as you get more money?
Ohmib0d wrote: » Limitation helps avoid spam and non archery class from being primary arrow. Also, the high amount of arrow obtained will be useful for grind or weaker enemy for fast grind
Asgerr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » ] Asgerr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » ] Asgerr wrote: » If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following. You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level). Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used. To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs. You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown. Basic attacks have no limit on arrows. This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop. Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource? Correct. Basic attack should not be limited by ammunition in my vision of it. You generate the class resource by using certain skills or using the basic attack or crits on DoTs. (I don't really have a preference on which one). And then you expend that class resource on the special skills. This however will mostly apply to Ranger based classes. A Fighter using a Bow, may get some augments and skills if he specs into it, but otherwise would be limited to the infinite basic attack (which in his case would deal considerably less damage than his melee weapon). This serves mostly for kiting, or keeping uptime when the monster or boss uses a close range AoE. That's OK I guess. Gives a different take with some consequences on attack Guage usage. Feels weird but at least different. What game was that from? I'm not sure it fits any one game in particular, but there are classes in FFXIV that operate on a similar principle. For instance, the Bard, which is the Archer class in the game, has 3 different songs. Each songs has its own effects. In one of them, you get 3 slots of a resource that fill up whenever your applied DoTs deal Crit damage. You can expend it using the associated skill at any point (using 1, 2 or 3 of that resource). But the more you have, the more damage you deal. WoW also has stuff like this. I think for instance Warlock and Paladins generate resources with certain skills or attacks, and then you expend them for specific skills which require X amount of them.
Ohmib0d wrote: » ] Asgerr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » ] Asgerr wrote: » If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following. You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level). Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used. To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs. You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown. Basic attacks have no limit on arrows. This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop. Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource? Correct. Basic attack should not be limited by ammunition in my vision of it. You generate the class resource by using certain skills or using the basic attack or crits on DoTs. (I don't really have a preference on which one). And then you expend that class resource on the special skills. This however will mostly apply to Ranger based classes. A Fighter using a Bow, may get some augments and skills if he specs into it, but otherwise would be limited to the infinite basic attack (which in his case would deal considerably less damage than his melee weapon). This serves mostly for kiting, or keeping uptime when the monster or boss uses a close range AoE. That's OK I guess. Gives a different take with some consequences on attack Guage usage. Feels weird but at least different. What game was that from?
Asgerr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » ] Asgerr wrote: » If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following. You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level). Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used. To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs. You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown. Basic attacks have no limit on arrows. This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop. Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource? Correct. Basic attack should not be limited by ammunition in my vision of it. You generate the class resource by using certain skills or using the basic attack or crits on DoTs. (I don't really have a preference on which one). And then you expend that class resource on the special skills. This however will mostly apply to Ranger based classes. A Fighter using a Bow, may get some augments and skills if he specs into it, but otherwise would be limited to the infinite basic attack (which in his case would deal considerably less damage than his melee weapon). This serves mostly for kiting, or keeping uptime when the monster or boss uses a close range AoE.
Ohmib0d wrote: » ] Asgerr wrote: » If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following. You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level). Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used. To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs. You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown. Basic attacks have no limit on arrows. This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop. Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource?
Asgerr wrote: » If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following. You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level). Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used. To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs. You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown. Basic attacks have no limit on arrows. This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop.
Ohmib0d wrote: » If anyone played ghost of tsushima legends they did it nice with limited arrows and swarms of enemy . Besides if they let us retrieved arrows from dead enemies and craft or have shops and vendors frequently at locations it wouldn't be bad at all.
NiKr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » If anyone played ghost of tsushima legends they did it nice with limited arrows and swarms of enemy . Besides if they let us retrieved arrows from dead enemies and craft or have shops and vendors frequently at locations it wouldn't be bad at all. Mmos are not single player games. And most of the time their features don't quite match up. What works in one genre doesn't in the other. Especially when we're talking about a truly massive mmo like Ashes.
Ohmib0d wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » Ever thought of potions being limited but after a while you have high amount and the cost go down as you get more money? Except most of the time the higher in lvl you go the better and more expensive potions you get, so they never really "just become cheap". Ohmib0d wrote: » Limitation helps avoid spam and non archery class from being primary arrow. Also, the high amount of arrow obtained will be useful for grind or weaker enemy for fast grind What spam? Archers will just shoot arrows the same way they would with unlimited arrows. Literally nothing changes except for the money requirement. And no, other classes won't magically become better than archers at using the bow if arrows are unlimited. Archers will have weapon skills for bows so they'll always be better at using a And again I ask: why have it cost anything if you mean to make the cost nothing? You're adding unnecessary steps to a perfectly fine and working system. Asgerr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » ] Asgerr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » ] Asgerr wrote: » If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following. You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level). Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used. To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs. You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown. Basic attacks have no limit on arrows. This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop. Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource? Correct. Basic attack should not be limited by ammunition in my vision of it. You generate the class resource by using certain skills or using the basic attack or crits on DoTs. (I don't really have a preference on which one). And then you expend that class resource on the special skills. This however will mostly apply to Ranger based classes. A Fighter using a Bow, may get some augments and skills if he specs into it, but otherwise would be limited to the infinite basic attack (which in his case would deal considerably less damage than his melee weapon). This serves mostly for kiting, or keeping uptime when the monster or boss uses a close range AoE. That's OK I guess. Gives a different take with some consequences on attack Guage usage. Feels weird but at least different. What game was that from? I'm not sure it fits any one game in particular, but there are classes in FFXIV that operate on a similar principle. For instance, the Bard, which is the Archer class in the game, has 3 different songs. Each songs has its own effects. In one of them, you get 3 slots of a resource that fill up whenever your applied DoTs deal Crit damage. You can expend it using the associated skill at any point (using 1, 2 or 3 of that resource). But the more you have, the more damage you deal. WoW also has stuff like this. I think for instance Warlock and Paladins generate resources with certain skills or attacks, and then you expend them for specific skills which require X amount of them. I never tried bow in ff14 just cqc as I was never encouraged to use bow in many mmo due to just endlessly infinitely mashing. I mean it sounds OK but I still don't get how my idea wouldn't work. If anyone played ghost of tsushima legends they did it nice with limited arrows and swarms of enemy . Besides if they let us retrieved arrows from dead enemies and craft or have shops and vendors frequently at locations it wouldn't be bad at all.
Asgerr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » Ever thought of potions being limited but after a while you have high amount and the cost go down as you get more money? Except most of the time the higher in lvl you go the better and more expensive potions you get, so they never really "just become cheap". Ohmib0d wrote: » Limitation helps avoid spam and non archery class from being primary arrow. Also, the high amount of arrow obtained will be useful for grind or weaker enemy for fast grind What spam? Archers will just shoot arrows the same way they would with unlimited arrows. Literally nothing changes except for the money requirement. And no, other classes won't magically become better than archers at using the bow if arrows are unlimited. Archers will have weapon skills for bows so they'll always be better at using a And again I ask: why have it cost anything if you mean to make the cost nothing? You're adding unnecessary steps to a perfectly fine and working system. Asgerr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » ] Asgerr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » ] Asgerr wrote: » If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following. You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level). Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used. To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs. You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown. Basic attacks have no limit on arrows. This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop. Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource? Correct. Basic attack should not be limited by ammunition in my vision of it. You generate the class resource by using certain skills or using the basic attack or crits on DoTs. (I don't really have a preference on which one). And then you expend that class resource on the special skills. This however will mostly apply to Ranger based classes. A Fighter using a Bow, may get some augments and skills if he specs into it, but otherwise would be limited to the infinite basic attack (which in his case would deal considerably less damage than his melee weapon). This serves mostly for kiting, or keeping uptime when the monster or boss uses a close range AoE. That's OK I guess. Gives a different take with some consequences on attack Guage usage. Feels weird but at least different. What game was that from? I'm not sure it fits any one game in particular, but there are classes in FFXIV that operate on a similar principle. For instance, the Bard, which is the Archer class in the game, has 3 different songs. Each songs has its own effects. In one of them, you get 3 slots of a resource that fill up whenever your applied DoTs deal Crit damage. You can expend it using the associated skill at any point (using 1, 2 or 3 of that resource). But the more you have, the more damage you deal. WoW also has stuff like this. I think for instance Warlock and Paladins generate resources with certain skills or attacks, and then you expend them for specific skills which require X amount of them. I never tried bow in ff14 just cqc as I was never encouraged to use bow in many mmo due to just endlessly infinitely mashing. I mean it sounds OK but I still don't get how my idea wouldn't work. If anyone played ghost of tsushima legends they did it nice with limited arrows and swarms of enemy . Besides if they let us retrieved arrows from dead enemies and craft or have shops and vendors frequently at locations it wouldn't be bad at all. The difference is that Ghost of Tsushima Legends is a multiplayer adaptation of a single player game. The economy of it matters considerably less than in an MMO where resources may be scarce, contested and variable in availability. Sure, everyone can use a bow in AoC, but it's going to mostly be a Ranger and Ranger + 2nd Archetype's tool of war. So now, tell a player: "Hey, Rangers are really cool! But you're the only Archetype in the game whose main weapon requires you to constantly sink your hard earned money into having your primary weapon actually work and deal damage. Everyone else can just use their weapon and occasionally repair it from damage. But you? You have to buy all of the arrows for your basic attack to even work. And sure, arrows may be cheap at first. But what of whenever some large guild claims a partial monopoly on the resources for it? Or if the mayor of your node taxes them higher than everything else, because he just effing hates archers? Anyway. So you wanna play Ranger?"
Ohmib0d wrote: » The special part about AoC is it isn't like other mmo. How dynamic the game is design and the concept behind it. Not all game of same genre is the same copy and paste cookie cutter
Okeydoke wrote: » In Ultima Online, not only did archers need arrows, but mages needed reagents to cast spells. About 8 or 9 separate reagents. Things like black pearl, mandrake, ginseng, nightshade.
NiKr wrote: » Okeydoke wrote: » In Ultima Online, not only did archers need arrows, but mages needed reagents to cast spells. About 8 or 9 separate reagents. Things like black pearl, mandrake, ginseng, nightshade. I think an additional resource that boosts/changes attacks for all classes could be cool, but that's pretty much what augments and enchantments gonna do so it's kinda pointless.
Ohmib0d wrote: » If cqc weapon require repair after a while then wouldn't that balance out with the arrows required for archery?
Ohmib0d wrote: » Asgerr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » Ever thought of potions being limited but after a while you have high amount and the cost go down as you get more money? Except most of the time the higher in lvl you go the better and more expensive potions you get, so they never really "just become cheap". Ohmib0d wrote: » Limitation helps avoid spam and non archery class from being primary arrow. Also, the high amount of arrow obtained will be useful for grind or weaker enemy for fast grind What spam? Archers will just shoot arrows the same way they would with unlimited arrows. Literally nothing changes except for the money requirement. And no, other classes won't magically become better than archers at using the bow if arrows are unlimited. Archers will have weapon skills for bows so they'll always be better at using a And again I ask: why have it cost anything if you mean to make the cost nothing? You're adding unnecessary steps to a perfectly fine and working system. Asgerr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » ] Asgerr wrote: » Ohmib0d wrote: » ] Asgerr wrote: » If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following. You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level). Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used. To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs. You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown. Basic attacks have no limit on arrows. This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop. Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource? Correct. Basic attack should not be limited by ammunition in my vision of it. You generate the class resource by using certain skills or using the basic attack or crits on DoTs. (I don't really have a preference on which one). And then you expend that class resource on the special skills. This however will mostly apply to Ranger based classes. A Fighter using a Bow, may get some augments and skills if he specs into it, but otherwise would be limited to the infinite basic attack (which in his case would deal considerably less damage than his melee weapon). This serves mostly for kiting, or keeping uptime when the monster or boss uses a close range AoE. That's OK I guess. Gives a different take with some consequences on attack Guage usage. Feels weird but at least different. What game was that from? I'm not sure it fits any one game in particular, but there are classes in FFXIV that operate on a similar principle. For instance, the Bard, which is the Archer class in the game, has 3 different songs. Each songs has its own effects. In one of them, you get 3 slots of a resource that fill up whenever your applied DoTs deal Crit damage. You can expend it using the associated skill at any point (using 1, 2 or 3 of that resource). But the more you have, the more damage you deal. WoW also has stuff like this. I think for instance Warlock and Paladins generate resources with certain skills or attacks, and then you expend them for specific skills which require X amount of them. I never tried bow in ff14 just cqc as I was never encouraged to use bow in many mmo due to just endlessly infinitely mashing. I mean it sounds OK but I still don't get how my idea wouldn't work. If anyone played ghost of tsushima legends they did it nice with limited arrows and swarms of enemy . Besides if they let us retrieved arrows from dead enemies and craft or have shops and vendors frequently at locations it wouldn't be bad at all. The difference is that Ghost of Tsushima Legends is a multiplayer adaptation of a single player game. The economy of it matters considerably less than in an MMO where resources may be scarce, contested and variable in availability. Sure, everyone can use a bow in AoC, but it's going to mostly be a Ranger and Ranger + 2nd Archetype's tool of war. So now, tell a player: "Hey, Rangers are really cool! But you're the only Archetype in the game whose main weapon requires you to constantly sink your hard earned money into having your primary weapon actually work and deal damage. Everyone else can just use their weapon and occasionally repair it from damage. But you? You have to buy all of the arrows for your basic attack to even work. And sure, arrows may be cheap at first. But what of whenever some large guild claims a partial monopoly on the resources for it? Or if the mayor of your node taxes them higher than everything else, because he just effing hates archers? Anyway. So you wanna play Ranger?" Well..everytimeI bring up my plan everyone immediately jumps to buying arrows but no one recognize that I also said arrows can be looted from dead enemies and crafted from abundant resources without having to worry about money. On top of that the special arrow abilities are infinite as well they just require cooldowns. More than enough options to keep an archer going for long without spending much
Asgerr wrote: » Except arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra.
NiKr wrote: » Asgerr wrote: » Except arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra. But that's the point. Ohmi suggested a shitty design and immediately suggested a fix for said shitty design
Ohmib0d wrote: » How is it shifty? So many people thinking like this. This is why mmo games die fast. They just want to be the next wow or gw2. No one takes risk. EQ got boring with the endless quivers. Mmo in general is a chore to begin with anyways..loot grind etc. How is finding simple resource to craft arrows or looting or buying arrows any different? Besides New World requires ammunition and arrows and they did a pretty good idea.
SongRune wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Asgerr wrote: » Except arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra. But that's the point. Ohmi suggested a shitty design and immediately suggested a fix for said shitty design It's not a great fix. You can loot arrows if... - You're not in a Siege where you don't have time to do so safely. - You're not defending a caravan that's continuing to move along as you fight, leaving the corpses far behind by the time you can safely loot them. - You're not in a raid with relatively fewer adds to loot from. - You don't get unlucky with your loot quantity over time and gain less than you spend. In these or many other possible cases, you have to pay money to use your basic attack. Thing is. Ashes isn't a pure ability-spam game. Your basic attack matters. If you just spam abilities you're going to run out of MP/stamina. You have to use your basic attack to be fully effective. So in the end, it all still comes down to "you have to pay money to play your class". And sure, everyone else has to repair their weapons too. But are bows just not going to ever need repair? That goes against core requirements of the intended economic design. Bows need an item sink for the same reason greatswords do. Paying for arrows is just extra.
Ohmib0d wrote: » SongRune wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Asgerr wrote: » Except arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra. But that's the point. Ohmi suggested a shitty design and immediately suggested a fix for said shitty design It's not a great fix. You can loot arrows if... - You're not in a Siege where you don't have time to do so safely. - You're not defending a caravan that's continuing to move along as you fight, leaving the corpses far behind by the time you can safely loot them. - You're not in a raid with relatively fewer adds to loot from. - You don't get unlucky with your loot quantity over time and gain less than you spend. In these or many other possible cases, you have to pay money to use your basic attack. Thing is. Ashes isn't a pure ability-spam game. Your basic attack matters. If you just spam abilities you're going to run out of MP/stamina. You have to use your basic attack to be fully effective. So in the end, it all still comes down to "you have to pay money to play your class". And sure, everyone else has to repair their weapons too. But are bows just not going to ever need repair? That goes against core requirements of the intended economic design. Bows need an item sink for the same reason greatswords do. Paying for arrows is just extra. You must not have played EQ or Asherons call. Arrows were easy and cheap to craft and magicians can summons arrows back. Don't see why not have a siege summons arrows you shot or missed back at you? A simple in combat hotkey to craft and restock in a fight with a cooldown counter like abilities. In asheron archery learn to create so much inventory space that they rarely run out of arrows in raid or anything
Ohmib0d wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Asgerr wrote: » Except arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra. But that's the point. Ohmi suggested a shitty design and immediately suggested a fix for said shitty design How is it shifty? So many people thinking like this. This is why mmo games die fast. They just want to be the next wow or gw2. No one takes risk. EQ got boring with the endless quivers. Mmo in general is a chore to begin with anyways..loot grind etc. How is finding simple resource to craft arrows or looting or buying arrows any different? Besides New World requires ammunition and arrows and they did a pretty good idea.
Asgerr wrote: » Arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra.
