DPS Meter Megathread

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MaiWaifu

Elitism is inevitable. People are competitive by nature. Access to stats and meters will definitely lead to min-maxing. Who doesn't like bigger numbers?

If it exists as a 3rd party tool, people will use it regardless of it is punishable or not. It might as well just be in game as standard otherwise you end up with GW2 balancing issues.

The players in GW2 that actually look at DPS value can do do triple or double with their rotations vs the average player which the game is balanced around. This makes the story content either trivial or overtuned.

Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

I still think a good solution is to give more information to military node citizens. That's why they choose to be that kind of citizens: a certain play style which is different from the economic node citizens' style.

This would just make the meta be "you gotta be a military citizen if you wanna pve at the top", which is shit imo.

Or at least the leaders would have to be, if the stat info can be applied to all the raid members. I do like specialties and limited availability based on different characteristics and stats. But I feel like this kind of feature being limited would be wrong.

Dygz

Otr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Combat logs are irrelevant.

Fun is important!

Precisely my point. So... we agree that combat logs are irrelevant!

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Archeage, on the other hand, has very low combat tracker use. I am the only player I know for sure to use one.

Did you use it mainly for pve or for both pve and pvp?

Mainly for PvP actually.

In Archeage, it didn't really matter what class you bought along in PvE. Even with the Red Dragon, if you had some tanks and some healers, and then just a bunch of other players, you were good.

The main thing I used it for was to find gaps. Some bugs, some poor design, some undocumented aspects about specific builds - things like that.

This is the sort of thing I do in every MMO, and then generally compile a report on them and pass it to the developers. I didn't do this last part in Archeage, because XL had already well and truly proven that they thought they knew everything about the game and how people would play it - their arrogance makes Blizzard even at their worst look fairly tame.

Instead, I just took advantage of what I found out myself. I saw that all three classes that people ran for the games PvP meta (Daggerspell, Darkrunner and something else I can't remember now) all had similar flaws that a single specific build was able to exploit. Since about 80% of the player base ran one of those three classes, and since it didn't matter what you had in PvE, when I ran the off-meta build I came up with, I was able to take on 3 or 4 better geared, better "skilled" players with ease.

Interestingly, the build I used to run is the new meta.

Noaani

Otr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Combat logs are irrelevant.

Fun is important!

Indeed it is - and different people derive fun from different activities.

Are you trying to push your version of fun on to everyone?

Noaani

Otr wrote: »

I said recently in another thread that on the topic of risk vs reward I would not compromise. A game which has no risks is boring to me.
Risk comes through variation, doubt, unpredictability, uncertainty, not knowing things.
People who come with the answers destroy the fun part of the game for me.

That's the thing.

If a game is well designed, there is no one size fits all answer.

WoW has one size fits all, because the game is designed to have it.

If Ashes is well designed, and combat trackers are heavily used, if someone tells you "this is the spec you should use", the only thing you should assume is that the spec they are talking about is probably not one you should use - unless you are in exactly the same situation they are in.

With a combat tracker, the only way I could give you actual answers (as opposed to recommendations) is if I look over your gear, what gear is easily available to you that you do not have, what your situation typically is in groups and raids, and what content you are going on.

Without all of that taken in to account, I can't give you answers, and I wouldn't attempt to give you any.

Ransel

I guess another question relevant to the DPS meters and meta builds is how reactive AoC will be to nerfing or modifying pvp because players find something that works well in pvp.

I'm not a fan of over "balancing" pvp. I'd rather see new skills added than continuously making effective builds rebalanced to do less damage. Too much balancing leads to a bland pvp experience where it doesn't particularly matter what role or class you play.

Dygz

What part of PvP would the devs nerf?
Ashes is a PvX game.

GethOverlord

Noaani wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Combat logs are irrelevant.

Fun is important!

Indeed it is - and different people derive fun from different activities.

Are you trying to push your version of fun on to everyone?

This....this is the infuriating part of this conversation. You're trying to insinuate everyone's fun needs to be a priority, while also putting yourself above the logical point:
This MMO has a design philosophy in mind to be a social first MMO and a majority of social players derive no enjoyment out of having numbers shoved in their face to play a significant portion of the game. Yet, because you want to have numbers it's encroaching on your fun if it isn't there.

You know what, this whole experience is collectively someone's ideal version of fun. It could be Steven's, it could be you, it could be some random sap who shows his ball sack on YouTube. But if it has to be someone's I hope it's someone who cares about the mental health and wellbeing of the players and makes life maybe a little bit harder for the people who need to be the best at everything.

Then more people will play the game and more people will enjoy playing the game. More people will have fun without this feature than with it. Even if it isn't you.

GethOverlord

Dygz wrote: »

What part of PvP would the devs nerf?
Ashes is a PvX game.

They've pretty much already said PvP is going to be a mess balance wise because they are going to focus on the PvX element and personally I hope they stick to that. Balancing games around PvP never really ends well.
Though this might be worth a separate thread.

Brewskie

i agree 100% that a DPS meter, and a Healing Meter needs to be added to the UI customization bar. No respectable guild will play a game without being able to manage dps output, rotation, healing output, and single healing output. So, the game from the beginning needs to have this meter available.

Everyone wants it, needs to see it, and needs to improve in rotation, animation canceling, and so on to get good.

You already customize the dmg on mobs, to the left and right, and able to customize the UI and this is beautiful.

Thanks, the PC Gods for this concept, now for the output meters and you will be the God Creators !! hehe

MaiWaifu

GethOverlord wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Combat logs are irrelevant.

Fun is important!

Indeed it is - and different people derive fun from different activities.

Are you trying to push your version of fun on to everyone?

You know what, this whole experience is collectively someone's ideal version of fun. It could be Steven's, it could be you, it could be some random sap who shows his ball sack on YouTube.

LOL shout out to this guys AoC content - I'm watching his vids now.

Overload

I want a DPS meter to be added to Ashes, just to see someone trying to analyze the DPS logs of a 4 hour encounter with a boss that was interrupted 10 times and each attempt done under different circumstances with half of their guild killed and other half being on half HP, missing important cooldowns due to having to constantly use them to fight off other players contesting them for the same boss

Asgerr

Brewskie wrote: »

i agree 100% that a DPS meter, and a Healing Meter needs to be added to the UI customization bar. No respectable guild will play a game without being able to manage dps output, rotation, healing output, and single healing output. So, the game from the beginning needs to have this meter available.

Everyone wants it, needs to see it, and needs to improve in rotation, animation canceling, and so on to get good.

You already customize the dmg on mobs, to the left and right, and able to customize the UI and this is beautiful.

Thanks, the PC Gods for this concept, now for the output meters and you will be the God Creators !! hehe

* Checks Guild Recruitment sections on Forums and Discord *

Funny how there are so many who have already invested into the game and care not for DPS meters.

Noaani

Overload wrote: »

I want a DPS meter to be added to Ashes, just to see someone trying to analyze the DPS logs of a 4 hour encounter with a boss that was interrupted 10 times and each attempt done under different circumstances with half of their guild killed and other half being on half HP, missing important cooldowns due to having to constantly use them to fight off other players contesting them for the same boss

That sounds like a Tuesday.

Noaani

Asgerr wrote: »

Brewskie wrote: »

i agree 100% that a DPS meter, and a Healing Meter needs to be added to the UI customization bar. No respectable guild will play a game without being able to manage dps output, rotation, healing output, and single healing output. So, the game from the beginning needs to have this meter available.

Everyone wants it, needs to see it, and needs to improve in rotation, animation canceling, and so on to get good.

You already customize the dmg on mobs, to the left and right, and able to customize the UI and this is beautiful.

Thanks, the PC Gods for this concept, now for the output meters and you will be the God Creators !! hehe

* Checks Guild Recruitment sections on Forums and Discord *

Funny how there are so many who have already invested into the game and care not for DPS meters.

I mean, are you surprised that the places where scrub guilds advertise recruitment are filled with scrub guilds?

Noaani

Otr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

I said recently in another thread that on the topic of risk vs reward I would not compromise. A game which has no risks is boring to me.
Risk comes through variation, doubt, unpredictability, uncertainty, not knowing things.
People who come with the answers destroy the fun part of the game for me.

That's the thing.

If a game is well designed, there is no one size fits all answer.

WoW has one size fits all, because the game is designed to have it.

If Ashes is well designed, and combat trackers are heavily used, if someone tells you "this is the spec you should use", the only thing you should assume is that the spec they are talking about is probably not one you should use - unless you are in exactly the same situation they are in.

With a combat tracker, the only way I could give you actual answers (as opposed to recommendations) is if I look over your gear, what gear is easily available to you that you do not have, what your situation typically is in groups and raids, and what content you are going on.

Without all of that taken in to account, I can't give you answers, and I wouldn't attempt to give you any.

"the only way I could give you actual answers is if I look over your gear"

Reading this post I realize that you might be the main source of information on those web sites which youtubers will read, to be able to make decent content and influence their followers who will then come to me (with your answers)

This may well be true.

The thing is, all of that will happen with it without combat trackers.

Someone will come to with what they think is the best build and post it. Others will read that and go to you with those answers.

The difference is, if combat trackers exist, you can prove to those people that they are wrong. If they do not exist,it is tour word vs the word of someone that posted it on the internet (so it must be true).

The idea that combat trackers cause a meta to exist (which is what you are talking about here) just isnt true.

Players cause a meta to exist.

Rhinehold

Really interesting topic. The number of benefits are equal to the number of drawbacks, in my mind.

On one hand, DPS meters breed a toxic sense of competition, where people are scolded for not having certain numbers.

On the other hand, as a raid leader, if we aren't killing a boss due to lack of damage, how do I know who to coach into being better, if there are no numbers to guide?

FF14 seems to do fine without them, so clearly it can be done. 17 years of WoW has me acculturated a different direction.

Neskartu

The only way DPS meters are healthy for the community is if they are paired with Healing Meters, Damage taken meters, CC meters, buff meters, etc.

We need to be able to either track all of the classes' contributions to a team's success, or none of them.

Noaani

The_Gaming_Butler wrote: »

Really interesting topic. The number of benefits are equal to the number of drawbacks, in my mind.

On one hand, DPS meters breed a toxic sense of competition, where people are scolded for not having certain numbers.

On the other hand, as a raid leader, if we aren't killing a boss due to lack of damage, how do I know who to coach into being better, if there are no numbers to guide?

FF14 seems to do fine without them, so clearly it can be done. 17 years of WoW has me acculturated a different direction.

FFXIV has combat trackers - heaps of people use them.

People just aren't allowed to talk about it.

Also, in most games, people don't get scolded for not hitting certain numbers - not in my experience at least.

In a game like WoW, since it is so linear in terms of progression, you can basically look at a players gear and class, and know what their numbers should be. In almost all other games, this isn't possible, as there are too many other factors that can impact your output - including things like the performance of others in your group or raid.

When you have classes dedicated to support, if they don't do their job well, others aren't doing their job well. Sometimes this manifests as everyone in the raid not being where they should, but sometimes it may be more concentrated on one or two players (a build that relies heavily on that support, as an example).

In my experience, in most games, guilds go out of their way to make sure they recruit people that know what they are doing, and that actually want to be participating on that content (this last part is missing in WoW, many people in raid guilds simply want the gear, the content is simply a barrier to getting it). As such, if there is an issue with someone not hitting the numbers they should be hitting, and it is an ongoing thing, what tends to happen is that someone in the guild has a chat with them to see why they think that is the case, and if there is anything the guild can do.

I mean, we know the player is good, we know the player wants to be there. Based on that, if there is a problem, the best solution is to just fix the problem.

Again, this doesn't happen in WoW for a myriad of reasons that aren't worth getting in to here again.

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