DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

Ceepex wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Ceepex wrote: »

Please no DPS meter. It breaks immersion in my opinion. If it is an optional personal thing it is fine I guess, but don't make other people able to see each other's dps/hps output, because it will take away focus from the game itself and make it a war of numbers which would be a shame.

@Ceepex

I agree it shouldnt be something that people feel the need to have on screen at all during content. This is something I have always considered a misuse of combat trackers.

My question is, would it concern you at all if I had one that I could use with my guild, but if you and I were in a group (assuming you are not in my guild), I am unable to see anything you are doing?

Not at all. I would like that actually. I would use it while I play with my friends as well, I would just hate it if in a group with "randoms" everyone can see each others dps/hps and then everything becomes about who does or does not do enough dps/hps.
But then the problem is when one can activate/deactivate showing their stats to the group, the ones who refuse to do it will get kicked from partys you know? so I don't think there can be a middle ground so better not include it unless I am missing something.

Thanks for the reply.

Honestly, this is the reaction most reasonable people have to this suggestion - it just kind of works for everyone that isnt being purposefully unreasonable.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Intrepid listening to feedback on no dps meters and everyone cheers.

There are actually currently less than a dozen posters that are against trackers if implemented in the manner I have discussed.

But sure, everyone cheers.

Aerlana

What is funny with this "you are bad neighbor"

Nooani is fighting to have this limited combat tracker.
limited to guilds that WANT to have it = no problem, you don't join guild for its name, color of logo but for its mindset, goals and way to reach goals. so only people who are ok with combat tracker will join guilds with it, while you who hate it will never join such guild, and if you are guild leader, you will never chose this perk, in favor of another guild perk. (Because yes... being a guild perk, it won't be totally free)

But yes, nooani seeing what problem could come, he tries to fight for a far less problematic way to do, he is a bad neighbor.
Because you, holy saint, defenders of laws... You just consider "ban them all"
When nooani says "People will use it and won't get ban" it is not a defiance, it is fact... You may dislike it and cry about them being bad neighbor what would it change ? FFXIV is perfect example... people are recorded without even knowing it, and their data are uploaded on a well known site, people can use (and some are using) to reject them from their party...

This is the way Ashes is going right now. And nooani, just want to reduce or even avoid it.
Why his idea would avoid it ? Most people don't care about parsing unknown. And if they have already built in tracker in game they won't have to take another one... always better/easier to use the tools directly in game.

Yes, people are toxic, not the tool, and YES seeing numbers on the tool opens a way to be toxic, and... YES they should be ban, not for using the tool, but for being toxic.

Now you seems to be "law law law" is the way to be a good neighbor right ?
One of my parent's neighbor, for years, and years complains about his bad neighbor behaviour, all according to law... It went to a point that police and mayor now, uses any way they can (with law) to make his life harsh. The good neighbor is not the one that respect a law or a spirit of a law, the good neighbor is the one that is smiling, offering help, invite others to diner... I personally fire wood bbq which is not allowed in my town... neighbors never complained, and i know if a new neighbor complain, they would be angry because... they like when i invite them to share a good piece of fish or meat cooked this way. He would be the bad neighbor in this story, in the mind of all others.

Bad/good are subjectiv things, the law don't say what is bad or good, it says what is allowed and what is forbidden. This is different. And a law can be bad... really bad. history has lot of example of it.

About activate or not : Worst idea. it add a thing to do (less userfriendly) to have the same result... dumb people will kick brainlessly anyone who dont activate it. and still kick people activating it but with bad result.
normal people will say "no problem" do run, and begin to mind problems only if their begin to struggle. as does with a totally open combat tracker.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Intrepid listening to feedback on no dps meters and everyone cheers.

There are actually currently less than a dozen posters that are against trackers if implemented in the manner I have discussed.

But sure, everyone cheers.

NT People don't want to have DPs meters in any form, just because they say they would be ok not wanting to argue anymore, etc doesn't mean they want DPS meters. You are just trying to argue everyone post to get them to somewhat change their mind so you can slowly move the goal post over. Almost everyone doesn't want them at all. Classic manipulation, simply stop trying to argue everyone on it and try just hearing what people say and the direction of what they want.

Mag7spy

People here against it can be just as loud as you, your point is to keep this thread on the top isn't it so the same 4 people could go back and froth forever while new people come and say they don't want it lol on top of it further proving the point of people against it including Steven making the right choice.

DPS meters are toxic, spend time learning the game, stop trying to get the DPS meter to do all the work for you. Just use the combat log in game..

Dygz

Guilds should not have dev designed DPS meters, either:

"Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, 'Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!' It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, 'Oh! We need to do exactly this.' Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group."
---Steven

Steven means... learn how to play the game without relying on DPS meters.
And the devs should design the game such that we don't need to rely on DPS meters.

You know that the devs consider players using DPS meters to be against the rules, but you want to cheat anyway.
Rules are rules; not laws. Cheating in a video game is not breaking a law. We agree.

Mag7spy

I just went though the older comments on the thread I get a better idea of new people rather than the same people going back and forth. I think Noaani forgot how many people he has been arguing with and how the majority of people don't' want it. Even if some people are find with personal tracks or just combat logs (which are in the game) only only further skews the idea of a DPS meter in forum of groups and guild not something people want by a large majority.

@Noaani When are you going to get off your high horse and accept what the community wants?

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Intrepid listening to feedback on no dps meters and everyone cheers.

There are actually currently less than a dozen posters that are against trackers if implemented in the manner I have discussed.

But sure, everyone cheers.

NT People don't want to have DPs meters in any form, just because they say they would be ok not wanting to argue anymore, etc doesn't mean they want DPS meters. You are just trying to argue everyone post to get them to somewhat change their mind so you can slowly move the goal post over. Almost everyone doesn't want them at all. Classic manipulation, simply stop trying to argue everyone on it and try just hearing what people say and the direction of what they want.

You're the one that said "the community doesnt want trackers", I simply pointed out that there are only a handful of people that are posting that they dont want them at all - when the VAST MAJORITY of people are perfectly happy with the guild/family suggestion.

As to my trying to somehow move the goalpost, I'm not sure which goalpost it is you are talking about.

I've been arguing for a family based tracker since basically the beginning. That wont change.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Steven means... learn how to play the game without relying on DPS meters.
And the devs should design the game such that we don't need to rely on DPS meters.

The problem with this that Steven doesnt understand is that back then, back in the day when MMO's were great, people were using combat trackers.

Those people that helped Steven - they helped him by using objective data from a tracker.

Sure, he may not have used one - indeed he may not have known they were even a thing. His guild would have though, at least some people - and those people are the ones that are best suited to helping out.

So, Steven has this memory of MMO's without combat trackers being some.magical time where players helped each other and everything was just grand - except that memory was actually of a time when people ran combat trackers, but had fixed servers without cross server play, had no automated grouping, and so wanted to get the most out of the people around them.

Basically, what Steven is remembering here is what I have been saying all along about combat trackers but no LFG, teleporting or cross server grouping.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

I just went though the older comments on the thread I get a better idea of new people rather than the same people going back and forth. I think Noaani forgot how many people he has been arguing with and how the majority of people don't' want it. Even if some people are find with personal tracks or just combat logs (which are in the game) only only further skews the idea of a DPS meter in forum of groups and guild not something people want by a large majority.

@Noaani When are you going to get off your high horse and accept what the community wants?

Just to throw in here since I thought this was known already, no one I know has any issue with trackers.

Certainly not the tracker type Noaani has suggested, which seems like a good idea.

We are silent because when you have a skilled advocate willing to put in their time on something they understand better than you, you shut up and let them do their thing and don't get in the way.

I know this doesn't matter to you specifically, Mag, just noting it to remind people not to be pulled in by your 'whole community' assertion.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

I just went though the older comments on the thread I get a better idea of new people rather than the same people going back and forth. I think Noaani forgot how many people he has been arguing with and how the majority of people don't' want it. Even if some people are find with personal tracks or just combat logs (which are in the game) only only further skews the idea of a DPS meter in forum of groups and guild not something people want by a large majority.

Noaani When are you going to get off your high horse and accept what the community wants?

Not at all. However, if you actually pay attention, in most cases it eventually goes exactly how my brief interaction with Ceepex above went - dont want trackers (usually because of WoW - which is understandable). Hears the suggestion of s guild based tracker and thinks it's a great idea.

You are right in that a lot of people have initially come in to this thread being against them. The thing is, unlike you, most people are open minded enough to change their position upon hearing a good argument.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I just went though the older comments on the thread I get a better idea of new people rather than the same people going back and forth. I think Noaani forgot how many people he has been arguing with and how the majority of people don't' want it. Even if some people are find with personal tracks or just combat logs (which are in the game) only only further skews the idea of a DPS meter in forum of groups and guild not something people want by a large majority.

Noaani When are you going to get off your high horse and accept what the community wants?

Not at all. However, if you actually pay attention, in most cases it eventually goes exactly how my brief interaction with Ceepex above went - dont want trackers (usually because of WoW - which is understandable). Hears the suggestion of s guild based tracker and thinks it's a great idea.

You are right in that a lot of people have initially come in to this thread being against them. The thing is, unlike you, most people are open minded enough to change their position upon hearing a good argument.

I think you need to go back over the thread and realizes how many people are against it and were tired of arguing with you. You simply want DPS meters to make the game easier for you, rather ran putting the time and and figuring things out yourself. All pints brought up have just been excuses for laziness.

Most the people here don't want DPS meters, they will have a combat log that will give them the information they need to see their damage and such. You ask the same people if they would prefer a game without dps meters and the answer would be clear and why they don't want other people to see information on them through a DPS meter.

The fact you get this much push back through a 100 pages should tell you that right there. They are toxic and people don't want that garbage. Use your combat tracker, use your brain, experiment and testing things out. There is far more to be gained from that and sharing information and people find the best ways to adjust their combat and grow. in groups and themselves.

Now if we get into a conversation of all the people that don't post if they were to this wouldn't even be a question. Everyone would be crapping on this kind of post compared to the few people that are for DPS meters that haven't commented.

Put your hands up we can box this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvOmroVDuu0

Mag7spy

What is another 100 pages after all.

TheClimbTo1

Noaani wrote: »

TheClimbTo1 wrote: »

The Devs aren't here to negotiate with you. You even say they put out feelers to get a sense of what the community wanted, and AFTER THAT said "We are going with No Trackers". That means that got the info from the COMMUNITY, and from that likely saw THE COMMUNITY at large didn't want them.

Two points here.

First, I am not talking to Intrepid, I am talking to you.

Second, the above isnt how it happened either - the community started talking about them, and Steven basically came in with his pre-existing misconception of trackers and decided to make policy bases on that.

The sad thing is, Steven knows full well trackers are kot a source of toxicity, but players are. He knows full well that he himself is the most toxic MMO player many thousands of people on his server in Archeage have ever come across.

When the most toxic player you have ever seen -that doesnt know what a combat tracker can even do - tells you that combat trackers cause toxicity, you know something is wrong with their statement.

Steven's later comment on it is all you need to know - he doesnt want them and he is making the decisions.

That doesn't mean it is the right decision.

The point is, if the ToS says "No Trackers" and you say "You can't stop me", that's you being the Bad Neighbor. Because you agreed to the ToS, and you understand the intent.

It's really that simple. You are refusing to follow a rule... so why play THIS game then? Go play something else that doesn't have that rule.

That's the complete issue. You are knowingly going to agree to a ToS, to a Community Guideline, knowing full well you aren't going to follow it. That's the problem.

TheClimbTo1

Aerlana wrote: »

What is funny with this "you are bad neighbor"

Nooani is fighting to have this limited combat tracker.
limited to guilds that WANT to have it = no problem, you don't join guild for its name, color of logo but for its mindset, goals and way to reach goals. so only people who are ok with combat tracker will join guilds with it, while you who hate it will never join such guild, and if you are guild leader, you will never chose this perk, in favor of another guild perk. (Because yes... being a guild perk, it won't be totally free)

But yes, nooani seeing what problem could come, he tries to fight for a far less problematic way to do, he is a bad neighbor.
Because you, holy saint, defenders of laws... You just consider "ban them all"
When nooani says "People will use it and won't get ban" it is not a defiance, it is fact... You may dislike it and cry about them being bad neighbor what would it change ? FFXIV is perfect example... people are recorded without even knowing it, and their data are uploaded on a well known site, people can use (and some are using) to reject them from their party...

This is the way Ashes is going right now. And nooani, just want to reduce or even avoid it.
Why his idea would avoid it ? Most people don't care about parsing unknown. And if they have already built in tracker in game they won't have to take another one... always better/easier to use the tools directly in game.

Yes, people are toxic, not the tool, and YES seeing numbers on the tool opens a way to be toxic, and... YES they should be ban, not for using the tool, but for being toxic.

Now you seems to be "law law law" is the way to be a good neighbor right ?
One of my parent's neighbor, for years, and years complains about his bad neighbor behaviour, all according to law... It went to a point that police and mayor now, uses any way they can (with law) to make his life harsh. The good neighbor is not the one that respect a law or a spirit of a law, the good neighbor is the one that is smiling, offering help, invite others to diner... I personally fire wood bbq which is not allowed in my town... neighbors never complained, and i know if a new neighbor complain, they would be angry because... they like when i invite them to share a good piece of fish or meat cooked this way. He would be the bad neighbor in this story, in the mind of all others.

Bad/good are subjectiv things, the law don't say what is bad or good, it says what is allowed and what is forbidden. This is different. And a law can be bad... really bad. history has lot of example of it.

About activate or not : Worst idea. it add a thing to do (less userfriendly) to have the same result... dumb people will kick brainlessly anyone who dont activate it. and still kick people activating it but with bad result.
normal people will say "no problem" do run, and begin to mind problems only if their begin to struggle. as does with a totally open combat tracker.

I do consider "Ban them all", if "all" means "Those that agreed to a ToS they knew they would never honor." Yes, that is my stance, completely.

Should we follow a ToS we agree to, or not? You tell me. Break it down for me.

My stance is, so it's clear, IF the ToS says No Trackers, then don't use Trackers. Ta-da. There it is. Do you agree or disagree with that stance?

Mag7spy

9001% agree, ban (doesn't mean its a perma ban depending on case to case and intent) them all and make a statement else people will do it without worry. Once you set a benchmark people will think twice on this kind of thing and not play games.

Noaani

TheClimbTo1 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

TheClimbTo1 wrote: »

The Devs aren't here to negotiate with you. You even say they put out feelers to get a sense of what the community wanted, and AFTER THAT said "We are going with No Trackers". That means that got the info from the COMMUNITY, and from that likely saw THE COMMUNITY at large didn't want them.

Two points here.

First, I am not talking to Intrepid, I am talking to you.

Second, the above isnt how it happened either - the community started talking about them, and Steven basically came in with his pre-existing misconception of trackers and decided to make policy bases on that.

The sad thing is, Steven knows full well trackers are kot a source of toxicity, but players are. He knows full well that he himself is the most toxic MMO player many thousands of people on his server in Archeage have ever come across.

When the most toxic player you have ever seen -that doesnt know what a combat tracker can even do - tells you that combat trackers cause toxicity, you know something is wrong with their statement.

Steven's later comment on it is all you need to know - he doesnt want them and he is making the decisions.

That doesn't mean it is the right decision.

The point is, if the ToS says "No Trackers" and you say "You can't stop me", that's you being the Bad Neighbor. Because you agreed to the ToS, and you understand the intent.

It's really that simple. You are refusing to follow a rule... so why play THIS game then? Go play something else that doesn't have that rule.

That's the complete issue. You are knowingly going to agree to a ToS, to a Community Guideline, knowing full well you aren't going to follow it. That's the problem.

Maybe this is a cultural thing, but where I am from, if I have a right that is pre-existing and someone comes in and says they want to take that right away, they are automatically looked on unfavorably.

A company that attempts to remove an individual's rights where I am from is considered an oppressor. Now again, maybe this is different where you are, maybe your society considered oppressors to be good. I still neither know nor care.

The other thing to keep on mind, this whole discussion here is based on Intrepid using language in their ToS that had never been used, and will likely cause a bit of controversy if they did. The invasiveness that would need to be put in place would absolutely see most gaming outlets report on it.

As it stands now, without needing to use "loopholes", my expectation is that the combat trackers made now are not going to be against the ToS.

Edit to add: the ToS cant just say "no trackers". They need to specify what functions they dont want software performing, AND how they dont want it interacting with the game client. Both need to be present for it to be in the ToS.

Since combat trackers exist that do not interact with the game client, the ToS for that piece of software simply can not prevent me from using them - as once again the ToS for the game client can ONLY cover how the game client is used, and how other software can interact with it. If your software is not interacting with the game client at all, the ToS of that game client simply can not prevent you using it

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

9001% agree, ban (doesn't mean its a perma ban depending on case to case and intent) them all and make a statement else people will do it without worry. Once you set a benchmark people will think twice on this kind of thing and not play games.

The problem here is - even if it is against the ToS, how do you ban people? As I said, they dont need to be run on the same computer as the game client.

In order to ban people using trackers - assuming they have grounds to do so - you still need to identify people using them.

How do they even do that?

Mag7spy

That is not your right to use a dps meter / trackers / add ons / etc in a game wtf. No gaming outfits are going to care about a TOS that says no trackers. Stop trying to act like a victim, play WoW if you want that stuff.

Mag7spy

Now trackers have no damn business reading anyone else's damage in a game if anything lmfao.

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