DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

That is not your right to use a dps meter / trackers / add ons / etc in a game wtf. No gaming outfits are going to care about a TOS that says no trackers. Stop trying to act like a victim, play WoW if you want that stuff.

I mean, you dont just say "you cant use a combat tracker", because then I can just state that my software is called a logger, ir a meter, or what ever.

What you need to do is say the function isnt allowed. Then you need to prove that a piece of software is performing that function.

As such, the language required to ban trackers in any way that could be considered effective would basically mean Intrepid need to be able to scan your computer for installed applications, and monitor all incoming and outgoing network traffic - whether the game client is running or not. Unless, of course, you expect them to not make provisions for detecting them at all...

That absolutely will cause a bit of a commotion.

Even with that language in place, I am still able to run a tracker without them detecting it.

There is a reason literally no MMO has banned trackers. They essentially cant.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

That is not your right to use a dps meter / trackers / add ons / etc in a game wtf. No gaming outfits are going to care about a TOS that says no trackers. Stop trying to act like a victim, play WoW if you want that stuff.

I mean, you dont just say "you cant use a combat tracker", because then I can just state that my software is called a logger, ir a meter, or what ever.

What you need to do is say the function isnt allowed. Then you need to prove that a piece of software is performing that function.

As such, the language required to ban trackers in any way that could be considered effective would basically mean Intrepid need to be able to scan your computer for installed applications, and monitor all incoming and outgoing network traffic - whether the game client is running or not. Unless, of course, you expect them to not make provisions for detecting them at all...

That absolutely will cause a bit of a commotion.

Even with that language in place, I am still able to run a tracker without them detecting it.

There is a reason literally no MMO has banned trackers. They essentially cant.

They can't ban without proof, but if you give proof that will be plenty or someone catches you and can show proof. We both know what game you are trying to play here, what you are saying right now if the game was out and you admitted to doing it and it was against the guidelines it would be plenty of proof.

And if it in any way connects to the games files that is 100% a ban. Its akin to the people that you see multiboxing on the same computer trying to not get caught for as long as possible.

Mag7spy

Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

That is not your right to use a dps meter / trackers / add ons / etc in a game wtf. No gaming outfits are going to care about a TOS that says no trackers. Stop trying to act like a victim, play WoW if you want that stuff.

I mean, you dont just say "you cant use a combat tracker", because then I can just state that my software is called a logger, ir a meter, or what ever.

What you need to do is say the function isnt allowed. Then you need to prove that a piece of software is performing that function.

As such, the language required to ban trackers in any way that could be considered effective would basically mean Intrepid need to be able to scan your computer for installed applications, and monitor all incoming and outgoing network traffic - whether the game client is running or not. Unless, of course, you expect them to not make provisions for detecting them at all...

That absolutely will cause a bit of a commotion.

Even with that language in place, I am still able to run a tracker without them detecting it.

There is a reason literally no MMO has banned trackers. They essentially cant.

They can't ban without proof, but if you give proof that will be plenty or someone catches you and can show proof. We both know what game you are trying to play here, what you are saying right now if the game was out and you admitted to doing it and it was against the guidelines it would be plenty of proof.

And if it in any way connects to the games files that is 100% a ban. Its akin to the people that you see multiboxing on the same computer trying to not get caught for as long as possible.

What you are now talking about is an FFXIV style of tracker acceptance.

More people in that game use trackers than I would expect to see in Ashes.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.

You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.

No one is asking for combat assistants.

Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.

You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.

No one is asking for combat assistants.

Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.

Nothing is confused it is simply the next step of what some people would want to try to include. You start with one thing to make it more acceptable to add more and more into the game in the form of other add ons

. When you stop all add-ons then there is no chance any types of things being added into the game including dps meters. As it isn't important with some work and thought you can figure things out on your own without a tool to do all the heavy work for you, you simply are just asking for a easy cheat.

The game will have a combat log for all your testing needs with min/maxing.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.

You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.

No one is asking for combat assistants.

Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.

Nothing is confused it is simply the next step of what some people would want to try to include. You start with one thing to make it more acceptable to add more and more into the game in the form of other add ons . When you stop all add-ons then there is no chance any types of things being added into the game including dps meters. As it isn't important with some work and thought you can figure things out on your own without a tool to do all the heavy work for you, you simply are just asking for a easy cheat.

The game will have a combat log for all your testing needs with min/maxing.

A slippery slope argument (which is what you have here) isnt overly valid.

The reason is, all a slippery slope argument is, when broken down, is a redefinition of where a line should be drawn.

You say they shouldnt have combat trackers because that could lead down the slope to combat assistants, someone else may say they shouldnt have combat, because we all know combat in an MMO will lead to combat trackers, and that may lead to combat assistants.

As such, you work out for yourself where your line is, you draw that, and you debate up to that point. When that line is crossed, you start debating about that crossed line - but not before then.

Clearly, this only works if you have a solid understanding of the topic, and a solid understanding of your position within that topic. If either of these are not that well established, a slippery slope argument may be of some merit, but it is akin to saying you have no issue with where the debate is now, but are afraid that it may lead to somewhere you have an issue with.

As such, since no one is talking about combat assistants, there is no need to debate them at all yet - unless you agree with me that trackers are fine, and wish to draw that line before combat assistants.

Another point to note that you may not be aware of - combat trackers are not inherently add ons. An add on is - as it sounds - an addition to an application. It is essentially a mod.

A combat tracker like ACT is it's own application, and so isnt an add on.

I am against add ons, and will happily get in to a debate as to why add ons in themself shouldnt be a thing in Ashes.

However, that is not the same discussion as a combat tracker, especially a combat tracker built in to the game.

Asgerr

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.

You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.

No one is asking for combat assistants.

Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.

Nothing is confused it is simply the next step of what some people would want to try to include. You start with one thing to make it more acceptable to add more and more into the game in the form of other add ons . When you stop all add-ons then there is no chance any types of things being added into the game including dps meters. As it isn't important with some work and thought you can figure things out on your own without a tool to do all the heavy work for you, you simply are just asking for a easy cheat.

The game will have a combat log for all your testing needs with min/maxing.

A slippery slope argument (which is what you have here) isnt overly valid.

The reason is, all a slippery slope argument is, when broken down, is a redefinition of where a line should be drawn.

You say they shouldnt have combat trackers because that could lead down the slope to combat assistants, someone else may say they shouldnt have combat, because we all know combat in an MMO will lead to combat trackers, and that may lead to combat assistants.

The difference being of course that one is the core of the game, whilst the other is a third party tool brought on to automate certain processes, and which the game is telling you you're not allowed to use.

So not quite comparable there bud.

Noaani

Asgerr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.

You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.

No one is asking for combat assistants.

Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.

Nothing is confused it is simply the next step of what some people would want to try to include. You start with one thing to make it more acceptable to add more and more into the game in the form of other add ons . When you stop all add-ons then there is no chance any types of things being added into the game including dps meters. As it isn't important with some work and thought you can figure things out on your own without a tool to do all the heavy work for you, you simply are just asking for a easy cheat.

The game will have a combat log for all your testing needs with min/maxing.

A slippery slope argument (which is what you have here) isnt overly valid.

The reason is, all a slippery slope argument is, when broken down, is a redefinition of where a line should be drawn.

You say they shouldnt have combat trackers because that could lead down the slope to combat assistants, someone else may say they shouldnt have combat, because we all know combat in an MMO will lead to combat trackers, and that may lead to combat assistants.

The difference being of course that one is the core of the game, whilst the other is a third party tool brought on to automate certain processes, and which the game is telling you you're not allowed to use.

So not quite comparable there bud.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

Care to clarify?

Mag7spy

As such, you work out for yourself where your line is, you draw that, and you debate up to that point. When that line is crossed, you start debating about that crossed line - but not before then.

Exactly why all that stuff needs to stay out of AoC, so people can't work out for themselves until it gets where each single person desire on that side of things including yourself. Axe it off and leave no room for those to be included into AoC. Just like you are pushing for something someone else will push for something else and it will keep going till you all ruin the game.

Thankfully you are in the extreme minority and the developer isn't supporting DPS meters or any add ons.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

As such, you work out for yourself where your line is, you draw that, and you debate up to that point. When that line is crossed, you start debating about that crossed line - but not before then.

Exactly why all that stuff needs to stay out of AoC, so people can't work out for themselves until it gets where each single person desire on that side of things including yourself. Axe it off and leave no room for those to be included into AoC. Just like you are pushing for something someone else will push for something else and it will keep going till you all ruin the game.

Thankfully you are in the extreme minority and the developer isn't supporting DPS meters or any add ons.

As I said, if someone else pushes for combat assistants, we can have that debate.

Right now, we are having the debate about combat trackers though.

You dont use the possibility of combat assistants to further your argument about combat trackers, because they are not the same thing.

As a point of interest, the ToS of almost all games prevents the use of combat assistants, as they need to interact directly with the game client.

As such, they are easy to identify without being overly evasive.

Again though, the issue with arguing a slippery slope argument is that it just doesnt work.

You're arguing against combat trackers, and claiming that they could lead to assistants. Why not argue against people using Excel as a manual combat tracker? I mean, a combat tracker is literally a spreadsheet that gets auto filled (some trackers back in the 90s for Meridian 59 and such used to literally just give you something to paste in to Excel, and MUD users back in the day used to just manually populate Excel templates as the games were slow enough to allow this).

If you want to prevent excel use, then why not ask for a ban on calculators while playing? I mean, excel is basically just a fast calculator.

Then you need to ask for a ban on pen and paper, because that is just a slower calculator.

This is why slippery slope arguments are not valid. You draw your line,and you argue up to it, but not past it.

Further to that, if combat trackers meant combat assistants were next, that would necessitate that all games with combat trackers also have combat assistants.

This isnt true, and in fact the only game I know of that has anything I would consider a combat assistant is WoW - and that is only because Blizzard literally doesnt care.

So, even if we ignore the slippery slope argument you are trying here, you cant really argue that combat trackers leads to combat assistants when all evidence says otherwise.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

As such, you work out for yourself where your line is, you draw that, and you debate up to that point. When that line is crossed, you start debating about that crossed line - but not before then.

Exactly why all that stuff needs to stay out of AoC, so people can't work out for themselves until it gets where each single person desire on that side of things including yourself. Axe it off and leave no room for those to be included into AoC. Just like you are pushing for something someone else will push for something else and it will keep going till you all ruin the game.

Thankfully you are in the extreme minority and the developer isn't supporting DPS meters or any add ons.

As I said, if someone else pushes for combat assistants, we can have that debate.

Right now, we are having the debate about combat trackers though.

You dont use the possibility of combat assistants to further your argument about combat trackers, because they are not the same thing.

As a point of interest, the ToS of almost all games prevents the use of combat assistants, as they need to interact directly with the game client.

As such, they are easy to identify without being overly evasive.

Again though, the issue with arguing a slippery slope argument is that it just doesnt work.

You're arguing against combat trackers, and claiming that they could lead to assistants. Why not argue against people using Excel as a manual combat tracker? I mean, a combat tracker is literally a spreadsheet that gets auto filled (some trackers back in the 90s for Meridian 59 and such used to literally just give you something to paste in to Excel, and MUD users back in the day used to just manually populate Excel templates as the games were slow enough to allow this).

If you want to prevent excel use, then why not ask for a ban on calculators while playing? I mean, excel is basically just a fast calculator.

Then you need to ask for a ban on pen and paper, because that is just a slower calculator.

This is why slippery slope arguments are not valid. You draw your line,and you argue up to it, but not past it.

Further to that, if combat trackers meant combat assistants were next, that would necessitate that all games with combat trackers also have combat assistants.

This isnt true, and in fact the only game I know of that has anything I would consider a combat assistant is WoW - and that is only because Blizzard literally doesnt care.

So, even if we ignore the slippery slope argument you are trying here, you cant really argue that combat trackers leads to combat assistants when all evidence says otherwise.

Its a fact, the same way with DPs meters being solo for yourself and then people wanting them extended to everyone and others around them. Its not about what you think its about what people in general will want to do, and any add on or DPS meter should not be included in the game as the company is not supporting it.

Then you don't need a combat tracker and you can put in the work and figure out things on your own so we are on the same page then.

You are simply trying to look at things in a way that benefits your view point trying to dumb it down and say its like pen and paper lmao. You have a program doing all the work and you aren't actually trying to figure things out on your own, and in the worst version you are trying to figure out what everyone else is doing which leads to toxic behavior.

They have stated on the record they aren't supporting dps meters, they gave people to speak up and they did and it has been clear for 100 pages people don't' want it. Go reread all the post and reflect and realize what the community has voiced.

Again the slippery slope is fact, one thing leads to the next, which leads to more types of add on as people try to create a environment where it is normalized. There is no reason to even get to that point, use your combat log in game and figure things out and socialize with people as AoC is suppose to be.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Its a fact, the same way with DPs meters being solo for yourself and then people wanting them extended to everyone and others around them.

I mean, this makes no sense.

Combat trackers have never been for solo people. If a combat tracker came out that was solo only, or if people started talking about one, obviously people would want it for those around them, because that is what people have always had.

There was never a situation in which solo trackers were a thing and group trackers were not. This wouldn't be a case of people complaining and wanting more, it would be a case if people wanting what they already had.

While you could then say "but people in WoW had combat assistants,so they would just argue for what they had", the easy answer to that (and an answer I would give should anyone seriously ask for combat assistants) is that since they are exclusive to WoW, as opposed to a genre staple, you cant really use the argument that they exist in that one game.

You are simply trying to look at things in a way that benefits your view point trying to dumb it down and say its like pen and paper lmao. You have a program doing all the work and you aren't actually trying to figure things out on your own, and in the worst version you are trying to figure out what everyone else is doing which leads to toxic behavior.

I am indeed trying to dumb things down a bit, but only to suit my current audience.

I didnt say combat trackers are like pen and paper, I used it as an example of why a slippery slope argument is not a good thing.

I'll try it again for you. Here is a scale.

Pen and paper
Calculator
Excel
Combat tracker
Combat assistant

Draw a line where you are content, and argue up to that point. There is no need to argue anything outside of what people are asking for.

They have stated on the record they aren't supporting dps meters, they gave people to speak up and they did and it has been clear for 100 pages people don't' want it. Go reread all the post and reflect and realize what the community has voiced.

I'm not talking to Intrepid, I'm talking to you. If Intrepid had confidence that the decision they have made is what the community wants, they would host a poll like they did for multiboxing (which needs to be boosted by Intrepid, and needs to have actual pertinent information such as no actual way to stop people using combat trackers).

They wont do that though, because they know what the result will be.

It's funny, you tell me to go back and read the thread - despite the fact I wrote the plurality of it. Even if I did go back through the thread, that isnt going to show the dozens of discussions that spawned off in to other threads, or in to private messages.

When I saw there are less than a dozen people currently against the combat tracker suggestion that has been presented here, I am being generous.

Not only are there very few people against it, but those that are against it are unable to give an actual reason as to why they are against it. Those people are also stubborn, and would not alter their opinion on something they have argued over regardless of how futile they realize their argument is (even to the point of arguing factitious cases of slippery slopes).

Essentially, the world values facts less now than it used to, and so some people are happy arguing without any facts to back them up. It's so bad now, in fact, that sometimes these people dont even realize they are making an argument from a tactless perspective.

For the record the argument for combat trackers is that most MMO's are able to alow then without any negative consequence, and many players enjoy using them.

The argument against them seems mostly to involve some herps and a few derps. It is incoherent, there are no solid examples that aren't immediately disproven, basically there is no solid foundation to it as an argument.

Again the slippery slope is fact, one thing leads to the next, which leads to more types of add on as people try to create a environment where it is normalized.

So why do most games not end up with combat assistants?

At this point, until you can either answer this point or claim that all MMO's have combat assistants, I cant see how you can logically maintain this slippery slope argument.

TheClimbTo1

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

That is not your right to use a dps meter / trackers / add ons / etc in a game wtf. No gaming outfits are going to care about a TOS that says no trackers. Stop trying to act like a victim, play WoW if you want that stuff.

I mean, you dont just say "you cant use a combat tracker", because then I can just state that my software is called a logger, ir a meter, or what ever.

What you need to do is say the function isnt allowed. Then you need to prove that a piece of software is performing that function.

As such, the language required to ban trackers in any way that could be considered effective would basically mean Intrepid need to be able to scan your computer for installed applications, and monitor all incoming and outgoing network traffic - whether the game client is running or not. Unless, of course, you expect them to not make provisions for detecting them at all...

That absolutely will cause a bit of a commotion.

Even with that language in place, I am still able to run a tracker without them detecting it.

There is a reason literally no MMO has banned trackers. They essentially cant.

You know exactly what they mean by Trackers. In fact, you know a ton about Trackers.

You understand the intent. That's the point.

You don't respect that intent at all, and you have no intent in following that despite knowing you are going to click "Agree" on that ToS.

Even if it's an Honor System and they just trust you to follow the ToS that you agreed to, if you decided not to that makes you the bad neighbor. Sure, they can't enforce it, but you understand the intent from the developer and you choose to ignore it. That's the issue.

It's the entire "They can't enforce it so I'm going to do what I want" that makes you the Bad Neighbor. Just because you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD.

There are PLENTY of games that open their arms to Trackers, that want them used. Stick to those games then (that is, IF the ToS comes out against Trackers... it's not in stone until the ToS after all).

That's the issue I have with you. You understand the intent, and you simply choose to not respect it and do your own thing anyways. That's not being a Good Neighbor at all.

Let's say it's just Community Guidelines, and in those Guidelines they say they don't want Trackers used. Well there it is, the intent. You understand it. And you disrespect the Community if you then fail to follow those Guidelines.

It's your steadfast refusal under any circumstance. That's not negotiating. That's demanding. It never mattered what Intrepid said, you were going to do your thing regardless. And somehow, to you, that's Good Neighbor Negotiating.

You openly talk about how you will agree to terms that you will then refuse to follow. I appreciate the honesty, I really do... doesn't make you the Good Neighbor here.

TheClimbTo1

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.

You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.

No one is asking for combat assistants.

Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.

A combat tracker, by definition, IS assisting you.

If it wasn't you wouldn't need it. It's assisting you on gathering all the data.

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Its a fact, the same way with DPs meters being solo for yourself and then people wanting them extended to everyone and others around them.

I mean, this makes no sense.

Combat trackers have never been for solo people. If a combat tracker came out that was solo only, or if people started talking about one, obviously people would want it for those around them, because that is what people have always had.

There was never a situation in which solo trackers were a thing and group trackers were not. This wouldn't be a case of people complaining and wanting more, it would be a case if people wanting what they already had.

While you could then say "but people in WoW had combat assistants,so they would just argue for what they had", the easy answer to that (and an answer I would give should anyone seriously ask for combat assistants) is that since they are exclusive to WoW, as opposed to a genre staple, you cant really use the argument that they exist in that one game.

You are simply trying to look at things in a way that benefits your view point trying to dumb it down and say its like pen and paper lmao. You have a program doing all the work and you aren't actually trying to figure things out on your own, and in the worst version you are trying to figure out what everyone else is doing which leads to toxic behavior.

I am indeed trying to dumb things down a bit, but only to suit my current audience.

I didnt say combat trackers are like pen and paper, I used it as an example of why a slippery slope argument is not a good thing.

I'll try it again for you. Here is a scale.

Pen and paper
Calculator
Excel
Combat tracker
Combat assistant

Draw a line where you are content, and argue up to that point. There is no need to argue anything outside of what people are asking for.

They have stated on the record they aren't supporting dps meters, they gave people to speak up and they did and it has been clear for 100 pages people don't' want it. Go reread all the post and reflect and realize what the community has voiced.

I'm not talking to Intrepid, I'm talking to you. If Intrepid had confidence that the decision they have made is what the community wants, they would host a poll like they did for multiboxing (which needs to be boosted by Intrepid, and needs to have actual pertinent information such as no actual way to stop people using combat trackers).

They wont do that though, because they know what the result will be.

It's funny, you tell me to go back and read the thread - despite the fact I wrote the plurality of it. Even if I did go back through the thread, that isnt going to show the dozens of discussions that spawned off in to other threads, or in to private messages.

When I saw there are less than a dozen people currently against the combat tracker suggestion that has been presented here, I am being generous.

Not only are there very few people against it, but those that are against it are unable to give an actual reason as to why they are against it. Those people are also stubborn, and would not alter their opinion on something they have argued over regardless of how futile they realize their argument is (even to the point of arguing factitious cases of slippery slopes).

Essentially, the world values facts less now than it used to, and so some people are happy arguing without any facts to back them up. It's so bad now, in fact, that sometimes these people dont even realize they are making an argument from a tactless perspective.

For the record the argument for combat trackers is that most MMO's are able to alow then without any negative consequence, and many players enjoy using them.

The argument against them seems mostly to involve some herps and a few derps. It is incoherent, there are no solid examples that aren't immediately disproven, basically there is no solid foundation to it as an argument.

Again the slippery slope is fact, one thing leads to the next, which leads to more types of add on as people try to create a environment where it is normalized.

So why do most games not end up with combat assistants?

At this point, until you can either answer this point or claim that all MMO's have combat assistants, I cant see how you can logically maintain this slippery slope argument.

"Why do most games..."

We generally feel MMOs are in a crap state. We don't WANT most MMOs. That's the point of Ashes.

If you want MOST MMOs, go play them. Stop trying to make Ashes into Most MMOs.

They are literally taking this route to distance themselves from 'Most MMOs', because the MMO Community has pretty much said we've endured a Decade of Suckage.

We don't want that Suckage in Ashes. And maybe it fails because it's trying to buck those trends. I'd rather it fail for that, than fail for trying to be like 'Most MMOs'.

So when you bring up 'Most MMOs', yeah... those are all the MMOs we're leaving or have already left. Why in the world would we want that here?

That's like hating the laws in your state, so you move to a different state ran by the other party... and go right back to voting for the party that ran your old state. Don't bring that crap here, you fled that crap already. Now you want to do that here?

We left those games. We don't want that crap here.

Most games have Fast Travel. We don't want that here. Most games don't require any Social to get a group going, you just click a button and you are in a group and in a Dungeon. We don't want that here. Blizzard stood right there on stage and said "You think you want that, but you don't... now you just click a button and you're in the Dungeon". Turns out, we'd rather have the Social aspect back again.

There are certain principles and ideas about Ashes, that are contrary to the current state of MMOs. That's the ENTIRE POINT of Ashes. We don't want Ashes to be all those other MMOs, we're ACTIVELY HERE for something different.

We feel MMOs were ruined, because of all the crap that developers told us we wanted. Why play the game, when you can just pay money and have a Max Character? Why interact with people, when you can just click a button and you're in a Dungeon with a full group? Why travel the world, when you can just click a button and now you're all the way on the other side of it? Turns out, we don't like those things. We don't want those things.

We're leaving THOSE games, to come to THIS one. And the idea of THIS GAME, is that it's not going to do those things.

Now you're coming here saying "All those games do it, we should do it.". No, we shouldn't... and that's WHY we shouldn't. Because our entire feeling (and you can say it's objectively wrong if you like) is that the current state of MMOs SUCKS. We don't want what is currently offered. That's WHY we're here, waiting on and supporting Ashes.

Again, we could be wrong. Current State of MMOs might be awesome. Ashes might try different things and fail. Cool, fine. We'd rather a new attempt, a different strategy. We don't want 'Most MMOs', we're actively fleeing from them... and here you are trying to go against that.

How about just give this game a chance, the way Steven and the Team envision it? That's a thing, a Good Faith thing you could do.

If we wanted most other MMOs, we wouldn't be HERE. I'm not exactly sure why you are here, you don't seem to be down with their vision. Steven has clearly stated the vision, and you're fighting it tooth and nail.

That's weird, man. You'd rather stick around, accept a ToS or Community Guideline you have zero intent of following. When you could just play a game that accepts those things and encourages them.

Meanwhile, the rest of us are fleeing exactly those things, and here you are saying we should put them in the game. We've had that, we've done that, we don't want that here. That's fine there. We don't want it HERE. If we want Trackers, there are places we can go for that. Many many places. The idea here is different, and that difference is why we're here.

Asgerr

Noaani wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.

You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.

No one is asking for combat assistants.

Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.

Nothing is confused it is simply the next step of what some people would want to try to include. You start with one thing to make it more acceptable to add more and more into the game in the form of other add ons . When you stop all add-ons then there is no chance any types of things being added into the game including dps meters. As it isn't important with some work and thought you can figure things out on your own without a tool to do all the heavy work for you, you simply are just asking for a easy cheat.

The game will have a combat log for all your testing needs with min/maxing.

A slippery slope argument (which is what you have here) isnt overly valid.

The reason is, all a slippery slope argument is, when broken down, is a redefinition of where a line should be drawn.

You say they shouldnt have combat trackers because that could lead down the slope to combat assistants, someone else may say they shouldnt have combat, because we all know combat in an MMO will lead to combat trackers, and that may lead to combat assistants.

The difference being of course that one is the core of the game, whilst the other is a third party tool brought on to automate certain processes, and which the game is telling you you're not allowed to use.

So not quite comparable there bud.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

Care to clarify?

That it is acceptable to speculate on the possible consequences of the presence of DPS meters/Combat trackers in a game, without it constituting a fallacious argument.

The false equivalence you drew there however, does lean more towards a fallacy.

It has been the experience of many that DPS meters/Combat trackers lead to less than ideal social interactions and to some level of exclusion. I can appreciate that you may not be one of the perpetrator of said behaviours, but allowing you the opportunity to have them, opens the door for more nefarious people to abuse them in all the wrong ways.

If you wanna use another false equivalence: it's like banning guns (picturing a US situation here). Because one person is capable of using their gun properly and without causing harm to others, doesn't mean that others won't and haven't already caused harm. The easiest solution then? Ban everyone from having access to guns (except maybe the devs for whatever testing reasons etc).

Aerlana

TheClimbTo1 wrote: »

My stance is, so it's clear, IF the ToS says No Trackers, then don't use Trackers. Ta-da. There it is. Do you agree or disagree with that stance?

I don't care about rules like i don't care about my town rules/law if they reduce the harmony in the neighborhood.

I prefer doing things that make the neighborhood happy, and that the neighborhood think is good.

As i said, because you seems to love a lot the neighborhood metaphor, i saw the lawfull side being bad, and the don't care side being good. And gave two obvious example of this. (Mayor and police knows i use firewood for my bbq and not coal... but everyone plays to be blind)

My question i ask myself is always "does my decision is a danger for other people, or does it harm them" . Excessiv application of laws/rules can be harmfull... And here we go on FFXIV... Where combat tracker are openly forbidden as stated by Naoki Yoshida, and we still have a whole website, full of datas of millions fight across the world, including datas of people that DOESN'T WANT to be recorded.

FFXIV is showing what kind of things will happens to AOC : both game are forbidding combat tracker with a ban hammer as sanction. So just lets watch what the old one is doing ?
The simple fact some people that doesn't want to be recorded are recorded and have their stat published is for me a problem. a real one. And the solution is not getting the site down (it won't stop at all this problem). The solution is having a tool usefull enough for people using it, while protecting people who don't want to be recorded...

This is what a good neigborhood is : a place where each neighbor doesn't harm the other comfort, not by following the town's rules, but with decision that makes everyone happy.

To finish a thing i love about @Mag7spy it is how he is full of bias, and decide what community wants, which most people in this topic never pretended (be it on one side or other)...
Let's be honest : you know nothing about what a community is. so before saying "the community says" try to learn what a community is.
It is not a nearly uniform mass, with a global mindset. no, it is lot of different mindset, different hope, different way to play the game that gather the whole community. A community is a patchwork... And sticking about the mindset of only one color of this big patchwork is not how you get a good and harmonious neighborhood...

Asgerr

Aerlana wrote: »

TheClimbTo1 wrote: »

My stance is, so it's clear, IF the ToS says No Trackers, then don't use Trackers. Ta-da. There it is. Do you agree or disagree with that stance?

My question i ask myself is always "does my decision is a danger for other people, or does it harm them" . Excessiv application of laws/rules can be harmfull... And here we go on FFXIV... Where combat tracker are openly forbidden as stated by Naoki Yoshida, and we still have a whole website, full of datas of millions fight across the world, including datas of people that DOESN'T WANT to be recorded.

FFXIV is showing what kind of things will happens to AOC : both game are forbidding combat tracker with a ban hammer as sanction. So just lets watch what the old one is doing ?
The simple fact some people that doesn't want to be recorded are recorded and have their stat published is for me a problem. a real one. And the solution is not getting the site down (it won't stop at all this problem). The solution is having a tool usefull enough for people using it, while protecting people who don't want to be recorded...

I'm pretty sure that to use FF Logs you need to explicitly do so yourself. You can't be parsed against your will, if the process requires you to copy paste an URL to your profile and download ACT, for your logs to be uploaded to FF Logs.

If anyone is crying that they're being parsed against their will, they're poorly attempting to deflect blame for their own actions.

TheClimbTo1

Aerlana wrote: »

TheClimbTo1 wrote: »

My stance is, so it's clear, IF the ToS says No Trackers, then don't use Trackers. Ta-da. There it is. Do you agree or disagree with that stance?

I don't care about rules like i don't care about my town rules/law if they reduce the harmony in the neighborhood.

I prefer doing things that make the neighborhood happy, and that the neighborhood think is good.

As i said, because you seems to love a lot the neighborhood metaphor, i saw the lawfull side being bad, and the don't care side being good. And gave two obvious example of this. (Mayor and police knows i use firewood for my bbq and not coal... but everyone plays to be blind)

My question i ask myself is always "does my decision is a danger for other people, or does it harm them" . Excessiv application of laws/rules can be harmfull... And here we go on FFXIV... Where combat tracker are openly forbidden as stated by Naoki Yoshida, and we still have a whole website, full of datas of millions fight across the world, including datas of people that DOESN'T WANT to be recorded.

FFXIV is showing what kind of things will happens to AOC : both game are forbidding combat tracker with a ban hammer as sanction. So just lets watch what the old one is doing ?
The simple fact some people that doesn't want to be recorded are recorded and have their stat published is for me a problem. a real one. And the solution is not getting the site down (it won't stop at all this problem). The solution is having a tool usefull enough for people using it, while protecting people who don't want to be recorded...

This is what a good neigborhood is : a place where each neighbor doesn't harm the other comfort, not by following the town's rules, but with decision that makes everyone happy.

To finish a thing i love about @Mag7spy it is how he is full of bias, and decide what community wants, which most people in this topic never pretended (be it on one side or other)...
Let's be honest : you know nothing about what a community is. so before saying "the community says" try to learn what a community is.
It is not a nearly uniform mass, with a global mindset. no, it is lot of different mindset, different hope, different way to play the game that gather the whole community. A community is a patchwork... And sticking about the mindset of only one color of this big patchwork is not how you get a good and harmonious neighborhood...

Or, if they say "No Trackers" what we COULD do, as a community is go "Hey, they'd rather us not use Trackers. Let's be respectful and honor that."

Why is that not an option? Why can't we just try it their way? FFXIV, some of the community decided to not try it that way, and now they have a mess. Those people collecting that data of people that don't want theirs collected, ARE negatively impacting their neighbors. Those people ARE the Bad Neighbors.

It's clear who the Bad Actors are there. But your suggestion isn't that they should just follow the rule. That's weird.

People in FFXIV are actively having their comfort harmed. The simple solution is to call out those doing the harm. Don't use Trackers. Obey the rule.

You will NEVER get decisions that make everyone happy. It's not possible. Perfection is an ideal, not a reality, it can not be achieved.

So if the game has things you don't like, either suck it up and accept it... or play a different game. Because the game CAN NOT cater to EVERYONE. So decide if you're good with this one or not. There are PLENTY of options out there.

If you don't like the rules of this game, play a game you do like the rules of. That seems super obvious.

This whole "I do not care what the rules are" IS the problem. Because the Developers have a concept, an intent, it's actively part of the design. And when you disregard that, you destroy what it is trying to be. That's exactly how you get people on FFXIV, a game intended to not have Trackers, having their information gathered against their will. Because some people decided to be bad neighbors, decided the rules didn't pertain to them. Now you have a mess, that those Bad Neighbors caused. They could have simply went to a game that DOES encourage and allow Trackers. That was an option. That would be the respectful thing to do. Instead, they disrespect their neighborhood, they do things that other players who are following the rules don't want done. Those players following the rules are having their comfort harmed, literally by those not following the rules.

It's really simply. We have options, choices. Go to the game that gives you the choices you want. If you want Trackers, play a game that accepts and encourages them. Plenty do. Don't be like those toxic people in that FFXIV Community that figure rules don't apply to them and their neighbors don't matter.

Your example is so horrible that it's disgusting. You'd rather empower those that have no regard for their fellow player. You'd rather empower those that have options that fit what they want, but instead would rather impose what they want on games that don't offer it. Why? Why in the world would you do that?

If you demand Trackers, go play a game that accepts Trackers. It's that easy.

Don't come to a game that is saying No Trackers, and disregard that. If you want them, plenty of games offer them. Go there. Why is this so hard to understand?

Noaani

TheClimbTo1 wrote: »

You don't respect that intent at all

Of course not.

Ashes is going to be a competitive game. People are going to use what advantages they can. If I am on a server with a guild that is using a combat tracker to optimize builds and such, me and my guild will be at a disadvantage if we do not also do the same.

Since there is literally nothing at all Intrepid can do about it, I cant rely on them stepping in.

As such, what kind of a guild leader would I be if I knowingly left useful tools that we are essentially free to use on the table?

In order to respect intent, they need to have an ability to back that up. Respect is - after all - earned.

Sure, they can't enforce it, but you understand the intent from the developer and you choose to ignore it. That's the issue.

You're still not getting it.

Their intent doesn't matter.

It would honestly be like some HoA or something in Texas saying "no guns in this neighborhood - that is our rule!". There are laws superseding that "rule", and so that rule simply does not apply to anyone. Obviously, no one is going to take that rule seriously, because of the Second Amendment (I believe that's the right one - not sure, not my laws). You are not going to begrudge someone in that area for owning and possessing a gun, because clearly the law allows them to do so, and the stupid little HoA does not get to remove the Constitutional Rights of the people in that HoA.

That is literally the situation here. Intrepid can ask all they want, but asking is all they can do, and I am free to say no. The fact that I am saying no many years before the game releases gives Intrepid time to come up with other options if they desire, or just live with how things are (which is the most likely outcome).

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