Before I get too Excited, PVP\PVE by Choice?

My question is, will pvp\pve be separated? Or will this be a forced pvp game?

From some of the videos I have been watching, it looks like you will have to pvp to maintain your housing. Is this the case or will there also be pve housing that is just where you go for some buildcraft?

Is the game open world pvp too, or can you choose to do some immersive questing or relaxing gathering without being ganked? Sometimes I like the intensity of pvp but I am a much bigger fan of immersive content.

Before the hardcore types get too judgy, I like the idea of a massive world with content to suit a large population so that the MMO-world feels beyond immense. Im not sure why developers have decided to cater to one small aspect of a game when this only leads to creating a game that seems small and finite, in both what a player can do in the game and how long the game can hold players' attention spans.

I have never had long queues for WvW, Arenas, or Battlegrounds so I never understand why developers are willing to lose such a large amount of revenue from players who do not want pvp, or only want to pvp on their terms.

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Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

'Drop up to half your gathered resources and certificates on death' is a BIG incentive for me. In a game without this, where the player suffers something else or is slightly inconvenienced, I would play more like you because the 'benefit to PvP' would be the fight itself or 'getting to keep the farm', and there would be no calculation to do.

Do we have any concrete word on the "up to half" part? I think I've always heard "a fraction". If it is truly up to half their inventory of gatherables, my pov might change, but so far I've been operating on a "no more than 20%, if even that". Cause as I see it, if people can drop 50% of their shit from a gank - Ashes in a much more dangerous place than I thought.

AFAIK, all we know is a portion is dropped. I don't recall any dev quotes of actual percentages.

Azherae

Warth wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

But did the weak people drop 25-50% of their stuff?

Imo weak people won't have valuable resources. We'll see how it works out in Ashes though, maybe I'm wrong on that assumption.

With how crafting oriented ashes is going to be won't the lower levels still be worth something if you steal a chunk of mats?

I don't know any MMO where low levels hold things that are valued so highly that you would risk losing your gear, 100% of the mats you hold, several hours of making up negative exp or several hours of getting rid of the corruption.

Do you @SirChancelot ?

From an economic standpoint, i do not see any reason for a high level player to gank a normal low level player since the high level player can usually do something else that awards 10x the mats with 1/5 of the hassle attached to it.

To be clear we're actually not necessarily talking about 'low level players' which is the real point here.

Skill gaps between gamers are often very large.

So 'equal level but without PvP skill' is still a 'weaker player'.

I should have clarified that to begin with. For me, (Fighting Gamer), there is no such thing as a 'lower level' player since characters are approximately equal. Player skill is the only factor worth considering. If you are level 30 and I am level 33 and my PvP skills are at 'normal gamer gap' above yours, I expect to succeed in killing you to take your stuff 8 out of 10 times.

Ludullu

Warth wrote: »

I don't know any MMO where low levels hold things that are valued so highly that you would risk losing your gear, 100% of the mats you hold, several hours of making up negative exp or several hours of getting rid of the corruption.

If L2's characters dropped half their mats on death, there'd definitely be waaaay more PKing of lowbies there, cause I have personally been a lowbie with thouuuuusands of different valuable mats on me after a good grinding session.

There's definitely a possibility this will be the case in Ashes. Maybe that's even why BHs exist, because the game will kinda push people to PKing gatherers because they're piñatas. But as I said, that'd put the game into a dangerous place, cause casuals would utterly hate that setup.

SirChancelot

Warth wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

But did the weak people drop 25-50% of their stuff?

Imo weak people won't have valuable resources. We'll see how it works out in Ashes though, maybe I'm wrong on that assumption.

With how crafting oriented ashes is going to be won't the lower levels still be worth something if you steal a chunk of mats?

I don't know any MMO where low levels hold things that are valued so highly that you would risk losing your gear, 100% of the mats you hold, several hours of making up negative exp or several hours of getting rid of the corruption.

Do you @SirChancelot ?

From an economic standpoint, i do not see any reason for a high level player to gank a normal low level player since the high level player can usually do something else that awards 10x the mats with 1/5 of the hassle attached to it.

We don't know how the crafting system will work
So I have no idea how material requirements will work. You might still need some amount of "lower" tier mats to make higher tier gear.

So if I high level player needs a little bit of wood to go with his other high level mats to build something and some low level player is getting in his way, yeah... That's inviting a scenario where a very one sided fight is about to take place.

All of this is purely hypothetical though. Maybe the crafting will be like wow and when you get to titanium ore the copper ore is useless to you so who knows.

Ludullu

SirChancelot wrote: »

All of this is purely hypothetical though. Maybe the crafting will be like wow and when you get to titanium ore the copper ore is useless to you so who knows.

I mean, Intrepid have been fairly clear in saying that all tiers of mats will be important.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Crafting#Gathering

Sengarden

As far as dropping mats on death goes, one thing that interests me is the system that decides what you’ll drop. Will it be more or less random? Will there be a RuneScape-like system where you get to choose and change at any time a certain number of items on your person that never drop? Can that hard number or any other metrics deciding player drops be changed through religious investment or something similar? It would be nice to have a small handful of “safe” items, but I can see some hardcore PvPers arguing against those protective measures.

Ludullu

Sengarden wrote: »

As far as dropping mats on death goes, one thing that interests me is the system that decides what you’ll drop. Will it be more or less random? Will there be a RuneScape-like system where you get to choose and change at any time a certain number of items on your person that never drop? Can that hard number or any other metrics deciding player drops be changed through religious investment or something similar? It would be nice to have a small handful of “safe” items, but I can see some hardcore PvPers arguing against those protective measures.

It's gonna be gatherables and processed goods. The thing we don't know is whether we'll drop a portion of all of them equally or just a portion of one stack of them in our inventory at random.

Okeydoke

NiKr wrote: »

Do we have any concrete word on the "up to half" part? I think I've always heard "a fraction". If it is truly up to half their inventory of gatherables, my pov might change, but so far I've been operating on a "no more than 20%, if even that". Cause as I see it, if people can drop 50% of their shit from a gank - Ashes in a much more dangerous place than I thought.

I don't think we have anything concrete. I think Alpha 1 was 50% when you died, not even sure about that. But that was just Alpha 1, not necessarily an indicator.

But the issue is, if for instance it's 20% that a non combatant loses upon death, then a combatant only loses 10%, because combatants lose half as much as non combatants.

So a 10% difference there between the two. The goal of the combatant/noncombatant mechanics are to encourage people to fight back. Is 10% really enough to encourage people to fight back? Probably not. 10% extra loss, in general, seems worth it to give someone else corruption.

Then you add in, by flagging up to fight back, not only do you have to win the fight, but you're flagged up, ANYONE else can attack you too, because you flagged up. Why go through all of that for just the CHANCE of saving an additional 10% of your loot?

There would need to be a bigger delineation between the two in my opinion.

Azherae

Okeydoke wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Do we have any concrete word on the "up to half" part? I think I've always heard "a fraction". If it is truly up to half their inventory of gatherables, my pov might change, but so far I've been operating on a "no more than 20%, if even that". Cause as I see it, if people can drop 50% of their shit from a gank - Ashes in a much more dangerous place than I thought.

I don't think we have anything concrete. I think Alpha 1 was 50% when you died, not even sure about that. But that was just Alpha 1, not necessarily an indicator.

But the issue is, if for instance it's 20% that a non combatant loses upon death, then a combatant only loses 10%, because combatants lose half as much as non combatants.

So a 10% difference there between the two. The goal of the combatant/noncombatant mechanics are to encourage people to fight back. Is 10% really enough to encourage people to fight back? Probably not. 10% extra loss, in general, seems worth it to give someone else corruption.

Then you add in, by flagging up to fight back, not only do you have to win the fight, but you're flagged up, ANYONE else can attack you too, because you flagged up. Why go through all of that for just the CHANCE of saving an additional 10% of your loot?

There would need to be a bigger delineation between the two in my opinion.

I'm actually counting on people to take the offered incentive and fight back, because in that case if we win, there's no Corruption for any of us anyway.

(I kept saying 'I' before, but it will nearly never be just me, so I figured I should stop doing that).

This is also a thing I often consider. It's easy to control who gets Corruption when the opponent isn't fighting back, so 'designated Red' is simple enough that the player might just go 'this isn't gonna work anyway, that red doesn't care, might as well fight back'.

The main thing to stop this is if your 'Designated Red' is red already, any players that are also in small-group can kill them off first without ever opening themselves up to 'dying without giving Corruption'. But that just makes the 'Designated Red' an interesting tank.

If you are of sound enough mind when jumped in a 3v2 or 3v3 to consider all this, and also decide 'am I going purple to defend an extra 10% of my materials if I lose?', then you are exactly the opponent type I want.

Ludullu

Okeydoke wrote: »

There would need to be a bigger delineation between the two in my opinion.

While true, it still depends on how abundant/valuable your loot is. If one item from your 10 takes a few hours to acquire, even 10% would be worth it. But if you only have some random sticks that you picked up in the last 20 minutes, then even 25% wouldn't be worth flagging up.

And then there's the "is it all gatherables or only one stack that drops" issue. If it's all of them that drop a portion - 10% is still quite a lot. If it's only a stack - 25% ain't much, relatively speaking.

In other words, the balancing will be very tight and the main determinant will be the end goal of Intrepid. Do they want to have high risk/reward on each death (would push away a lot of casuals) or do they want the penalty not be as big (might remove owpvp, because it'll be better to just give corruption).

I personally wouldn't care, because I don't care for the economic side of pvp, but both the casual and the Azherae's side of this issue would definitely have more things to say about it whichever way it goes.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

There would need to be a bigger delineation between the two in my opinion.

While true, it still depends on how abundant/valuable your loot is. If one item from your 10 takes a few hours to acquire, even 10% would be worth it. But if you only have some random sticks that you picked up in the last 20 minutes, then even 25% wouldn't be worth flagging up.

And then there's the "is it all gatherables or only one stack that drops" issue. If it's all of them that drop a portion - 10% is still quite a lot. If it's only a stack - 25% ain't much, relatively speaking.

In other words, the balancing will be very tight and the main determinant will be the end goal of Intrepid. Do they want to have high risk/reward on each death (would push away a lot of casuals) or do they want the penalty not be as big (might remove owpvp, because it'll be better to just give corruption).

I personally wouldn't care, because I don't care for the economic side of pvp, but both the casual and the Azherae's side of this issue would definitely have more things to say about it whichever way it goes.

For clarity I don't actually care if Intrepid balances hard toward 'discouraging OWPvP' from the perspective of economic incentives. I would probably prefer if they did, because I like med-population dynamism in games in my areas.

I may be a more useful test case in some situationsbecause my structure is 'respond to incentives'. Intrepid can get a lot of systems data from someone who is constantly calculating 'the margins' of going Red, rather than RP-ers, PermaReds, or pacifists.

Which is why there's no real downside to me blabbing about perceptions beforehand. Also, I don't mind if this thread floats because I bet you that it is 'suppressing' a bunch of other similar threads just by its title, but we'll see in the coming weekend.

EDIT: Shoutouts to OP for having such a good title and first post, on that note.

TheDarkPaladin

Before the hardcore types get too judgy, I like the idea of a massive world with content to suit a large population so that the MMO-world feels beyond immense. Im not sure why developers have decided to cater to one small aspect of a game when this only leads to creating a game that seems small and finite, in both what a player can do in the game and how long the game can hold players' attention spans.

I have never had long queues for WvW, Arenas, or Battlegrounds so I never understand why developers are willing to lose such a large amount of revenue from players who do not want pvp, or only want to pvp on their terms.[/quote]

Go play WoW or New world, those two have togglable PvP

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

I don't know any MMO where low levels hold things that are valued so highly that you would risk losing your gear, 100% of the mats you hold, several hours of making up negative exp or several hours of getting rid of the corruption.

If L2's characters dropped half their mats on death, there'd definitely be waaaay more PKing of lowbies there, cause I have personally been a lowbie with thouuuuusands of different valuable mats on me after a good grinding session.

There's definitely a possibility this will be the case in Ashes. Maybe that's even why BHs exist, because the game will kinda push people to PKing gatherers because they're piñatas. But as I said, that'd put the game into a dangerous place, cause casuals would utterly hate that setup.

PKing gatherers because they're piñatas

Time to kill all the lowbies ^_^

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Time to kill all the lowbies ^_^

Ashes will have a harsher punishment for doing this, so not sure how much we can do that

Though if there's some glass cannon class in the game - ohhh boi, the lowbies shall be dropping left and right.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Time to kill all the lowbies ^_^

Ashes will have a harsher punishment for doing this, so not sure how much we can do that Though if there's some glass cannon class in the game - ohhh boi, the lowbies shall be dropping left and right.

That is what alts are for lol,

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

That is what alts are for lol,

Well yeah, but that'll only work if there's a glass cannon class. Cause to maximize your genocide you'd have to be roughly the same lvl as lowbies and have shitty gear that you can easily replenish. Otherwise you're just getting to super decreased stats within a few kills.

But if there's no glass cannon, there's a much higher chance that your victims will either fight back or have enough time to just run away. A ton of such cases happened back in L2 if you didn't use a mage/dagger to try and PK lowbies at their own lvl.

Dygz

Okeydoke wrote: »

But the issue is, if for instance it's 20% that a non combatant loses upon death, then a combatant only loses 10%, because combatants lose half as much as non combatants.

So a 10% difference there between the two. The goal of the combatant/noncombatant mechanics are to encourage people to fight back. Is 10% really enough to encourage people to fight back? Probably not. 10% extra loss, in general, seems worth it to give someone else corruption.

Then you add in, by flagging up to fight back, not only do you have to win the fight, but you're flagged up, ANYONE else can attack you too, because you flagged up. Why go through all of that for just the CHANCE of saving an additional 10% of your loot?

There would need to be a bigger delineation between the two in my opinion.

Um. Non-Combatants have normal death penalties - no different than dying from a mob attack. It's not really an issue.
If you care more about keeping your mats and gear durability than you do about participating in PvP - flag as a Combatant. If you lose it's only half the normal penalties, so that is a Win/Win situation.

Okeydoke

Dygz wrote: »

Um. Non-Combatants have normal death penalties

That's what we're talking about. We don't know quantitatively what the normal death penalties are. I had kind of a hard time understanding Nikr's and Azherae's replies to me. You just beat them out haha. I like you Dygz. Even when we disagree, like I legitimately like you. No idea why.

Dygz

We don't have to know the details.
Normal death penalties are fine - because they are normal.

And, yeah, I like you, too.
It should be OK to disagree.
That's part of the fun of the forums - we don't all have the exact same opinions.

Okeydoke

My bad DarkPaladin, just realized I misquoted you here, partly because you botched your quote of the OP, but my bad.

TheDarkPaladin wrote: »

Im not sure why developers have decided to cater to one small aspect

Because serving niche, or minority markets can be extremely lucrative. There are usually less barriers to entry compared to dominant or majority markets. The competition is not as stiff, and in some cases is nonexistent.

It's easier to secure customer loyalty because niche markets are usually underserved or not served at all. They have nowhere else to turn to, used to being ignored and thus are more appreciative, supportive and loyal.

Certainly if you can capture 50%+ of the dominant market in an industry, you are maximizing the amount of money you can make in that industry. But capturing 50-90% total of a niche market can be more lucrative than 10-30% of the majority market.

There's money to be made in niche markets. Lots of it. But you have to execute and capture that market with a good product all the same.

It's not always strictly about maximizing profit for every business owner though. In the case of Steven Sharif, he played pvp mmos with other pvp players. He had fun in those games and with those players, allies and enemies alike. He became a part of that community. And now he wants to serve that community with a product. I can guarantee you he wants to make a profit, but he also just wants to serve a long neglected community that he is a part of.

That is my estimation as of now at least. Source - the common sense of a bygone era + personal opinion.

All of that said, I don't know him. And I am pretty much expecting him to sell out his early backers at some point, "go Hollywood," and radically change the game to accommodate whiners. Can't help it, just my cynical nature.

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