DPS Meter Megathread

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Edit; fun fact for anyone reading this, it would seem that 483 is the hard limit on notifications on these forums.

Notifs have been broken for a few days now, so I doubt that's the limit.

That could be all it is. Thought it was an odd number to be the limit.

I noticed thread views have been broken for a few days, assume it's the same thing.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

My english comprehension isn't enough to properly comprehend that almost triple negative

Steven says that Ashes should not have separate PvE players. There are PvE players who don't agree with that. We can expect Steven to accept that there are players who don't agree and still not implement separate PvP servers.
Similarly, Steven says that Ashes should not have combat trackers. There are hardcore challenge PvE players who don't agree with that. We can expect Steven to accept that there are players who don't agree and still not implement combat trackers.

NiKr wrote: »

And while yes, there's more options that just "tracker" or "super obvious easy" one, the discussion around dps meters mainly talks about the harder side of pve and especially the "<10% clearable" stuff. In context of any other discussion it might've been way more than just 2 choices, but in context of trackers you either have no use for them or there's potential use for them. Yes, not everyone would even want to use them, but the potential use is still there.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by potential use for them.
There is a use for combat trackers. There should not be a need for combat trackers.
If the devs implement combat trackers, the will design boss encounters expecting that it's common for people to rely on combat trackers. Therefore, needing combat trackers would be more prevalent than it will be when the devs design expecting most people are not relying on combat trackers.

Dygz wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

My english comprehension isn't enough to properly comprehend that almost triple negative

Steven says that Ashes should not have separate PvE players. There are PvE players who don't agree with that. We can expect Steven to accept that there are players who don't agree and still not implement separate PvP servers.
Similarly, Steven says that Ashes should not have combat trackers. There are hardcore challenge PvE players who don't agree with that. We can expect Steven to accept that there are players who don't agree and still not implement combat trackers.

The big difference is that players cant ignore Intrepid and just start up their own PvE only server.

If they could, you had better believe Steven would rethink the situation.

Noaani wrote: »

The big difference is that players cant ignore Intrepid and just start up their own PvE only server.

If they could, you had better believe Steven would rethink the situation.

Wait for the private servers after the official game dies. I imagine all the rulesets under the sun will be implemented on the private servers. Incidentally, trackers are against FF14 ToS too but so long as you don't use the trackers to spread information, ban players, block players or lambast players the FF14 devs don't discipline the tracker users. I'm not sure I'd want to dice with the IS devs. I don't particularly want my account banned. I'm normally quite free flow on certain game practices but with Ashes I've waited years to play the main game and also spent a lot of money on cosmetics. I don't think I could face a game ban.

Neurath wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The big difference is that players cant ignore Intrepid and just start up their own PvE only server.

If they could, you had better believe Steven would rethink the situation.

Wait for the private servers after the official game dies. I imagine all the rulesets under the sun will be implemented on the private servers. Incidentally, trackers are against FF14 ToS too but so long as you don't use the trackers to spread information, ban players, block players or lambast players the FF14 devs don't discipline the tracker users. I'm not sure I'd want to dice with the IS devs. I don't particularly want my account banned. I'm normally quite free flow on certain game practices but with Ashes I've waited years to play the main game and also spent a lot of money on cosmetics. I don't think I could face a game ban.

I'm not really wanting to comment on private servers - or what changes I could see Intrepid undertaking if a private server exists while they are still updating Ashes.

As to FFXIV, as far as I can tell from reading their User Agreement, here isnt anything at all about trackers. They only mention of analysis is in relation to them analyzing players - nothing at all in relation to players analyzing the game. All mentions of third party software are in relation to things like RMT, data mining, and other such activities.

If you have the exact language used where they say you cant use trackers, I'd like to read it. If it is in a document other than;

FINAL FANTASY® XIV
User Agreement
Last Updated: 12/24/2019

I'd like to know which document.

However, I will say that in their FAQ they have a list of prohibited activities. One activity is analyzing game data - this is the closest thing I can find. However, a combat tracker analyzes combat data (or character data), not game data. If taken at face value, it is reasonable to assume people could get mixed up between analyzing game data (data mining), and analyzing combat data.

However, not only are these things not the same, but this specific document is a FAQ, not their legally binding User Agreement. The FAQ Prohibited Activities page is basically a "please dont do these things - we're asking nicely". If it is in this FAQ but not in the User Agreement, they really cant actually do anything about it.

No i don't have any paperwork to document that. I just go by the player interactions. Either way, the rule still stands that you can't share the information because that's a bannable offense. All the further information has revealed is further reluctance to gamble with things against Ashes ToS. I will still aim to get a Combat Tracker installed by IS rather than a third party but should the ToS for Ashes not change I wouldn't dice with the devs.

Neurath wrote: »

No i don't have any paperwork to document that. I just go by the player interactions. Either way, the rule still stands that you can't share the information because that's a bannable offense. All the further information has revealed is further reluctance to gamble with things against Ashes ToS. I will still aim to get a Combat Tracker installed by IS rather than a third party but should the ToS for Ashes not change I wouldn't dice with the devs.

Yeah, in FFXIV they essentially treat talking about objective data the same as actual harassment.

People can use trackers freely in that game. It isn't actually against the rules, because they cant make it against the rules. So instead, they made talking about it against the rules for reasons that can only be called pettiness.

This is the way Intrepid seem to be heading. Running a tracker will be fine - purely because they cant make that act against the rules.

Talking about your tracker in any official channels (the game, forums and maybe social media) could result in a ban.

So, I will be able to run my tracker. In a group, if someone is sub-par, I will he able to boot them - as long as I dont tell them why. If I tell them they were booted for sub-par performance, and they complain, my account could be suspended regardless of whether I am using a tracker or not.

What this will also mean though, is that o adjective discussion about the game can not happen on the official forums.

The stupid thing is, if guilds only use Discord for communication, they are literally immune to any such rule.

This will result in such discussions happening on third party sites (perhaps a forum, perhaps an unofficial Reddit, what ever). Basically, the community will split - assuming Ingrepid make the same "no discussion" rule that FFXIV has (which is indeed a rule they are able to make).

So, in an attempt to not have the community split over trackers it is very possible that Intrepid will cause the community to split.

Well, I believe we can talk theory all we want. Steven has the thread here under Captain Picard. Thus, I feel quite secure discussing the theory behind the combat trackers. Right now, only the combat tracker seems to be disapproved rather than the discussion of said potential trackers. Not that I would advertise a tracker or expect you to advertise the tracker.

One could just google FF14 and find the 'Act' Devs though. If indeed your 'Act' is the same 'Act' associated with FF14. The tag, colours, font and image matches those Devs though. Not that it really matters. I'm sure in the grand scheme everything will work out for the best.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

No i don't have any paperwork to document that. I just go by the player interactions. Either way, the rule still stands that you can't share the information because that's a bannable offense. All the further information has revealed is further reluctance to gamble with things against Ashes ToS. I will still aim to get a Combat Tracker installed by IS rather than a third party but should the ToS for Ashes not change I wouldn't dice with the devs.

Yeah, in FFXIV they essentially treat talking about objective data the same as actual harassment.

People can use trackers freely in that game. It isn't actually against the rules, because they cant make it against the rules. So instead, they made talking about it against the rules for reasons that can only be called pettiness.

This is the way Intrepid seem to be heading. Running a tracker will be fine - purely because they cant make that act against the rules.

Talking about your tracker in any official channels (the game, forums and maybe social media) could result in a ban.

So, I will be able to run my tracker. In a group, if someone is sub-par, I will he able to boot them - as long as I dont tell them why. If I tell them they were booted for sub-par performance, and they complain, my account could be suspended regardless of whether I am using a tracker or not.

What this will also mean though, is that o adjective discussion about the game can not happen on the official forums.

The stupid thing is, if guilds only use Discord for communication, they are literally immune to any such rule.

This will result in such discussions happening on third party sites (perhaps a forum, perhaps an unofficial Reddit, what ever). Basically, the community will split - assuming Ingrepid make the same "no discussion" rule that FFXIV has (which is indeed a rule they are able to make).

So, in an attempt to not have the community split over trackers it is very possible that Intrepid will cause the community to split.

Toxic

Well, this raises a different point that came up in my DNF duel practice today. I'll try to explain it without too much Fighting Game stuff.

My character has an attack string that basically ends in 'FlameBreath'. If I use this FlameBreath on the frame just before my opponent can no longer be hit by it, my frame data changes, their fall position changes, I can use my teleport and make it impossible to counter (In Ashes, let's assume the equivalent of this is that I would appear behind the opponent if I do it right, and in front of them if I do it wrong).

If Ashes were similar, I would want the Frame Data (but I can get it myself). If an opponent had an attack that for some reason hit me anyway while LOOKING like it should only hit in front of them, now I want a 'Hitbox Scanner' (harder to get myself, but I CAN do it).

This HitBox Scanner would not give me any DPS information at all, but it would be in the same spirit, to ME, as a Tracker or Parser. In my practice, that I am doing right now, I can 'do this combo for 2000 repetitions until I know the Hitbox for my opponent's counter-move', or I can look it up.

It's already clear that some people will say 'do the 2000 repetitions', that's not the question. The question is 'should Intrepid also have a negative stance on Hitbox Scanners since it has Action Combat elements?' and then for my purposes then, would I 'then be not allowed to discuss hitboxes in-game?' e.g.

"We're dying because you keep missing the lastframe teleport on your Flame Breath and dropping into the wrong hitbox for the enemy Tank, we need you to swap with someone who can do it or we're gonna lose this (PvP Encounter)"

Well, we're moving into the territory of Quality Assurance tools, which, trackers were originally a part of. Hit box scanners are definitely Quality Assurance or Debugger territory. The Devs don't want any API Addons so I can only assume a hit box scanner would also be disallowed. I can't say you should or should not progress a Hit Box Scanner, at the very least we should have all these tools on the PTS (Private Test Server) if the A2 Server becomes the PTS. Otherwise, there's little testing to be done except the usual testing which we would do on the live servers.

Neurath wrote: »

Well, we're moving into the territory of Quality Assurance tools, which, trackers were originally a part of. Hit box scanners are definitely Quality Assurance or Debugger territory. The Devs don't want any API Addons so I can only assume a hit box scanner would also be disallowed. I can't say you should or should not progress a Hit Box Scanner, at the very least we should have all these tools on the PTS (Private Test Server) if the A2 Server becomes the PTS. Otherwise, there's little testing to be done except the usual testing which we would do on the live servers.

My concern is that for me, 'discussing hit and hurtboxes' happens whether I have a scanner or not. I know they exist, I learn them by just playing the game naturally, I am, in all arrogance, basically a savant at 'seeing them without the scanner' which makes my skill valuable in analysis (cat is credit to team!)

But unlike a Realtime Combat Tracker where the 'way you tell if someone is using it' is 'how detailed information they have is relative to your perception of human capacity' (for observation and arithmetic, basically), it's much harder to judge for a HTBox.

Even more troublesome, I think, is that they're a 'moment to moment' thing. If you ask someone 'please use this ability instead, I think it will do more damage', I think you can get away with that even in FF14. If you 'try to explain the enemy HTBox/Frame Data to someone in chat so that they can improve performance', you normally don't have any way to be less specific.

I think we're jumping the gun a tad. The devs haven't said anything about 1984 styled ban on discussion/communication. Of course, discussion and communication can give players away who are breaking ToS but one would hope a GM actually performs checks on each player before a ban. There is no ToS that states we can't act on our natural knowledge and then communicate the natural findings. I'm pretty sure Steven and the Devs are more open minded than not.

Neurath wrote: »

I think we're jumping the gun a tad. The devs haven't said anything about 1984 styled ban on discussion/communication. Of course, discussion and communication can give players away who are breaking ToS but one would hope a GM actually performs checks on each player before a ban. There is no ToS that states we can't act on our natural knowledge and then communicate the natural findings. I'm pretty sure Steven and the Devs are more open minded than not.

I don't quite understand in that regard. What is the GM checking to make the ban decision, if not the communication?

We first started discussing a hit box scanner. I merely meant, the GM would check whether you've used a third party API Sync or Hit Box Scanner if the Hit Box Scanner is not allowed. Yet, I haven't seen or heard any evidence that communication can get you banned unless you are vile/toxic/aggressive/abusive/stalkerish towards others and even then only banned via the current medium.

Noanni brought the ToS statements from FF14 and suggested that Ashes might follow the same terms as FF14, but, that remains pure speculation at this point. I merely suggested that Steven gets notified every time we enter a post on this thread, thus, from my vantage point we seem to be able to discuss matters in a civil manner without fear of retribution. Of course, everything is subject to change.

Neurath wrote: »

We first started discussing a hit box scanner. I merely meant, the GM would check whether you've used a third party API Sync or Hit Box Scanner if the Hit Box Scanner is not allowed. Yet, I haven't seen or heard any evidence that communication can get you banned unless you are vile/toxic/aggressive/abusive/stalkerish towards others and even then only banned via the current medium.

Noanni brought the ToS statements from FF14 and suggested that Ashes might follow the same terms as FF14, but, that remains pure speculation at this point. I merely suggested that Steven gets notified every time we enter a post on this thread, thus, from my vantage point we seem to be able to discuss matters in a civil manner without fear of retribution. Of course, everything is subject to change.

Ah. I see.

For clarity, I'm not talking about the type that interacts directly with the client (admittedly building an HBS that does not is considerable work for imprecise data), which gets us back to an unproductive discussion, I think.

Yeah, I mean the old addage of what happens behind close doors remains behind closed doors applies. Certainly, discussion around 'illegal' activities can get you monitored. We're so far out from launch that I'm not even sure what will or won't be required. I think after Alpha 2 we'll be more clued in to what will be required and what won't be required. Certainly, purely from educational parameters some practices are allowed whereby any practical appliances would not be. Everyone learns in individual ways.

Mag7spy

Most easy way to judge how strong a stance you can take and know fi there will be backlash or not. If tons of people are supporting it in every post of unique individual, or if tons of people are generally against it or half and half with a certain preference not caring how it goes either way. If you are confident in your stance and make it clear and give people a chance to respond and people agree with you more so than disagree, then it only confirms your stance.

There for there is no reason to stop people from talking about it.

We do discuss everything. We discuss everything so much we go in endless circles lol