Dygz wrote: » But...again...I like objective-based, opt-in, manual flagging PvP...sometimes. And... since I am first and foremost an explorer, any game I play has to allow me to explore the entire map without being auto-flagged for PvP. Ashes doesn't do that. So, clearly Ashes is not the game for me.
Warth wrote: » Azherae wrote: » And now, for a personal addition to this. One of the largest problems with this, I think outright huge problems, is that higher PvE skill automatically puts many players in a situation where they are automatically disadvantaged in PvP against a player with less of it. Let's use Alpha-1 as a simple example. Crabs on a beach, level 13-15. High skill PvE player goes there at level 8 and starts racking up the exp. Lower skill PvE player or one who doesn't have as good a build doesn't go there until level 11 or 12. These two players could have literally the same build, gear, and PvP skill, and the LESS skilled PvE player would win their fight. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be like this, I'm simply adding it to the conceptual pile of reasons why PvE-focused players who build up those skills don't necessarily enjoy games like Ashes. Note it again. The player with the higher SKILL at one thing can have EQUAL skill to the other in PvP but because of their wish to push their PvE skill, they are disadvantaged in a PvP conflict anyway. What defines the success of a player in an MMO (for simplicity sake in a solo scenario): Effort put into the game (progression) Skill (including knowledge..., ability to control your character...) a little bit of luck cash spent More skilled players can lose in MMOs, thats very much part of it and there is nothing bad about it as skill isnt the only attribute deciding your success. All you describe above is that the level 8 player couldnt bridge his gap in effort (not being level 12) with the gap in skill. Which i dont think is something bad at all, albeit it does require careful balancing. Im looking forward to Intrepid showing how they will balance it, but i do not think that is pertinent to the PvE vs PvP Player Scenario we were addressing before.
Azherae wrote: » And now, for a personal addition to this. One of the largest problems with this, I think outright huge problems, is that higher PvE skill automatically puts many players in a situation where they are automatically disadvantaged in PvP against a player with less of it. Let's use Alpha-1 as a simple example. Crabs on a beach, level 13-15. High skill PvE player goes there at level 8 and starts racking up the exp. Lower skill PvE player or one who doesn't have as good a build doesn't go there until level 11 or 12. These two players could have literally the same build, gear, and PvP skill, and the LESS skilled PvE player would win their fight. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be like this, I'm simply adding it to the conceptual pile of reasons why PvE-focused players who build up those skills don't necessarily enjoy games like Ashes. Note it again. The player with the higher SKILL at one thing can have EQUAL skill to the other in PvP but because of their wish to push their PvE skill, they are disadvantaged in a PvP conflict anyway.
The question then becomes 'what is the consequence of the choice of PvP-focus as a choice?'
However when we are talking about gathering, suddenly this matters a lot. So I ask you this. If you are trying to gather and my group of 5 comes along and says 'you can't gather here, move along', will you fight?
Dygz wrote: » Who told you I don't partake in hardcore PvE?? Who said I wouldn't partake in a WoW mythic? Even if I were to avoid fighting such mobs - I wouldn't avoid exploring their lairs.
Dygz wrote: » I am a casual challenge/hardcore time player.
Azherae wrote: » In fact, let's assume that PvP-focused players, by their nature, in Ashes, are ALWAYS underleveled and undergeared relative to PvE-focused players that start at the same time and play the same amount. The game's goal (in my mind) if trying to make the game PvX would be to somehow incentivize those PvE players to help the PvP player gear up, increase PvE skill if necessary, gain levels.
NiKr wrote: » So I meant that you wouldn't interact with the mob gameplay of hardcore pve content. Because to most people, when they hear "hardcore pve" they think about some difficult dungeons with difficult mobs/bosses.
Azherae wrote: » Dizz wrote: » PvX means a game is made with PvP and PvE cross to each other no matter what kind player you are, which means if you are a player only feel joy in PvP than PvE or PVP than PvE Ashes of Creation might not your game, and a well made PvX game will make sure no matter what content you doing you won't always 100% avoid the PvP or PvE part. A lot of games tried to make PvX before so Ashes of Creation is not special in anyway, it's special because Intrepid trying to make a PvX type of game that already not a majority taste for a long time and so call MMORPG genre is dying and games we can see now are full of shit in general in this era. So PvX is a game type not really easy to have fun for hardcore PvP/PvE players which means players only want to do PvP or PvE and don't want the other part, to those kind of players you need to really understand that before you give your opinions. Like open sea is a higher risk and higher return zone, it's just what we know for sure is that they choose to make open sea a auto flagging pvp zone to represent the higher risk for now, maybe the monsters are also much danger than monsters on land which means it's maybe won't work like a heavy PvP zone. If the thing is that because there is a content leans more to PvP so the game needs a content leans more to PvE as a counter, Ashes of Creation will not far to become just a game have PvP and PvE part and call itself PvX like other shit games. Too much hardcore PvP/PvE players here in official forum and want to make Ashes of Creation their game instead of make it fun, it's just too much "I don't play like that way so I don't want that content" BS like PvPer don't do PvE contents or PvEer don't want PvP contents cross to PvE contents or even they think PvPers are toxic etc, if these BS is truth that most players are just like what they said then Ashes of Creation is already dead. Well, if it is relevant or gives you any 'comfort' at all, my group and I are definitely 'full PvX players'. The main reason I don't mention it is because the response I usually get from 'hardcore' players is to 'assign us to the other camp' if I bring up anything I think doesn't support PvX properly. I hope there are a lot of players like me, but I'm starting to worry that Ashes isn't actually designed for that player type. This worry doesn't have much basis, though, moreso 'born of the lack of information from Intrepid'. It could be that most of the 'hardcores' are going to be the ones very disappointed. I think I hope that's not true, but I'm not sure how good/popular Ashes will be if it isn't.
Dizz wrote: » PvX means a game is made with PvP and PvE cross to each other no matter what kind player you are, which means if you are a player only feel joy in PvP than PvE or PVP than PvE Ashes of Creation might not your game, and a well made PvX game will make sure no matter what content you doing you won't always 100% avoid the PvP or PvE part. A lot of games tried to make PvX before so Ashes of Creation is not special in anyway, it's special because Intrepid trying to make a PvX type of game that already not a majority taste for a long time and so call MMORPG genre is dying and games we can see now are full of shit in general in this era. So PvX is a game type not really easy to have fun for hardcore PvP/PvE players which means players only want to do PvP or PvE and don't want the other part, to those kind of players you need to really understand that before you give your opinions. Like open sea is a higher risk and higher return zone, it's just what we know for sure is that they choose to make open sea a auto flagging pvp zone to represent the higher risk for now, maybe the monsters are also much danger than monsters on land which means it's maybe won't work like a heavy PvP zone. If the thing is that because there is a content leans more to PvP so the game needs a content leans more to PvE as a counter, Ashes of Creation will not far to become just a game have PvP and PvE part and call itself PvX like other shit games. Too much hardcore PvP/PvE players here in official forum and want to make Ashes of Creation their game instead of make it fun, it's just too much "I don't play like that way so I don't want that content" BS like PvPer don't do PvE contents or PvEer don't want PvP contents cross to PvE contents or even they think PvPers are toxic etc, if these BS is truth that most players are just like what they said then Ashes of Creation is already dead.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » In fact, let's assume that PvP-focused players, by their nature, in Ashes, are ALWAYS underleveled and undergeared relative to PvE-focused players that start at the same time and play the same amount. The game's goal (in my mind) if trying to make the game PvX would be to somehow incentivize those PvE players to help the PvP player gear up, increase PvE skill if necessary, gain levels. Imo the goal of a PvX game should be to not separate those at all. Make the "pvpers" participate in hardcore pve and make the "pvers" fight in pvp. But I realize that we live in a too dualismic of society for that to ever happen in the way I want it to. Both sides will just complain that they're being made to do smth they don't want and will just leave, which to me is very sad
Azherae wrote: » Note that in that case I was mostly targeting the idea of 'interest', not 'skill'. Let's assume for whatever reason that someone was so incredibly skilled at PvE that they were ALWAYS the highest level person on the server. That they always had the best gear. This would be a form of balance, but even they might not have interest if the reason for this was 'this game is easy and I can just breeze through it'. In fact, let's assume that PvP-focused players, by their nature, in Ashes, are ALWAYS underleveled and undergeared relative to PvE-focused players that start at the same time and play the same amount. The game's goal (in my mind) if trying to make the game PvX would be to somehow incentivize those PvE players to help the PvP player gear up, increase PvE skill if necessary, gain levels.
Azherae wrote: » I would expect PvP players to have less interest in a game like this. To 'desire for gear and potions to be less effective' perhaps. But maybe not, so if that turns out to be the way it is (I see this as a balance requjrement, the PvP player has more skill but less gear so they lose), then so be it.
Warth wrote: » The question then becomes 'what is the consequence of the choice of PvP-focus as a choice?' I assume we are talking about focusing on a PvP build here: Less efficient farming, that is the consequence. You trade off your efficiency in PvE-Scenarios to accommodate your need for more PvP Tools. Any point you set into your pvp capabilities is a point that could have been spent optimizing your performance in PvE. However when we are talking about gathering, suddenly this matters a lot. So I ask you this. If you are trying to gather and my group of 5 comes along and says 'you can't gather here, move along', will you fight? No, why would i fight 5 people? Id either keep gathering and see if one of them has the balls to go corrupt in order to stop me. I would get 4 people myself or I would move on and i wouldnt be mad about it. Thats part of it being a MMO designed towards competition between players. If there is a bigger fish then you, either group and overthrow them, move away and do something else, join them. Do whatever, really.
Dygz wrote: » I mean some people assume that the issue is about combat difficulty. As in up your skills. And I'm saying that has nothing to do with my issue. My issue is that I want more control over when I'm in a hardcore battle than being in a zone that auto-flags for PvP.
Warth wrote: » Intrepid has been pretty clear about that, no?
Dizz wrote: » I think Intrepid want to make a PvX game, but is now an era that a PvX game able to live and shine? I'm not feel good about it. Because players now more willing to play game with "game modes" in stead of a single game world players share and play to each other. To me, I feel is some players are glass heart and some players are just don't know the line where is fun and where is toxic, in short most people lost the golden spirit to have a real PvX mmorpg.
Azherae wrote: » And we will all just hope that there are a lot of players like you, or that however many there are, is enough. That's all I meant. But the moment one shuts down the option of 'rewarding high PvE skill with more interesting challenge consistently', some players will play less, or not at all. And many people are familiar with PvP-focused players as 'the types of players who will take every advantage even to what they consider an unsportsmanlike degree', so encountering those players would be a negative for them. I mean, it's a negative for me and if Ashes' systems result in too many of them, I'm not playing either. To be clear, this is a thing both sides face as a problem, 'KarmaBombing' is the other side of it.
Dygz wrote: » Warth wrote: » Intrepid has been pretty clear about that, no? No. Did you watch my interview with Steven? Given light of the recent change, do you think his answers clearly addressed my concerns?
Warth wrote: » Dizz wrote: » I think Intrepid want to make a PvX game, but is now an era that a PvX game able to live and shine? I'm not feel good about it. Because players now more willing to play game with "game modes" in stead of a single game world players share and play to each other. To me, I feel is some players are glass heart and some players are just don't know the line where is fun and where is toxic, in short most people lost the golden spirit to have a real PvX mmorpg. Azherae wrote: » And we will all just hope that there are a lot of players like you, or that however many there are, is enough. That's all I meant. But the moment one shuts down the option of 'rewarding high PvE skill with more interesting challenge consistently', some players will play less, or not at all. And many people are familiar with PvP-focused players as 'the types of players who will take every advantage even to what they consider an unsportsmanlike degree', so encountering those players would be a negative for them. I mean, it's a negative for me and if Ashes' systems result in too many of them, I'm not playing either. To be clear, this is a thing both sides face as a problem, 'KarmaBombing' is the other side of it. @Dizz @Azherae i quoted both of you, as the comment followed the same sentiment. Whether there is a community large enough to support this type of game or not? Well Intrepid thinks so, that is why they are creating a game like this. But who really knows? If success was the only metric, then creating a pc only mmorpg is probably one of the last things you want to create in the first place. Im all for Intrepid giving it a shot. I personally believe that you will find more than sufficient players interested, if executed properly and Intrepid is one of the few dev studios who have a shot at doing that. But my opinion in this regard matters as little as the opinion of anybody else. If it fails, then well wait for the next, just like we have been for the past X years.
Warth wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Note that in that case I was mostly targeting the idea of 'interest', not 'skill'. Let's assume for whatever reason that someone was so incredibly skilled at PvE that they were ALWAYS the highest level person on the server. That they always had the best gear. This would be a form of balance, but even they might not have interest if the reason for this was 'this game is easy and I can just breeze through it'. In fact, let's assume that PvP-focused players, by their nature, in Ashes, are ALWAYS underleveled and undergeared relative to PvE-focused players that start at the same time and play the same amount. The game's goal (in my mind) if trying to make the game PvX would be to somehow incentivize those PvE players to help the PvP player gear up, increase PvE skill if necessary, gain levels. If they are part of your guild/community/alliance, sure you would want to help them be more proficient in the game. However, why would you want to help anybody else? Your potential enemies, your competition? Hell No. This isnt a cooperative game where everybody is supposed to have a happy time together. Its a game based on scarcity, competition and conflict.
Warth wrote: » Azherae wrote: » I would expect PvP players to have less interest in a game like this. To 'desire for gear and potions to be less effective' perhaps. But maybe not, so if that turns out to be the way it is (I see this as a balance requjrement, the PvP player has more skill but less gear so they lose), then so be it. There is tons of "hardcore" PvP players who only ever want to PvP, preferably without deep progression, without having to put in much effort to gear. Many of them moved to moba-like games or games that feature standalone arena type pvp long ago. Ashes isnt designed for them, the same way it isnt designed for those that want to pve exclusively. Intrepid has been pretty clear about that, no?
