DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

Not sure of the issues here. The game will have top end raiders either way. The only question will be whether those top end raiders will be ridiculed or respected due to comparative difficulties elsewhere. One doesn't just translate to top end and expect to be worshipped. It's all judged and analysed by the mmo communities.

I think Noaani is talking about top lvl raiders from games that have raiding as their main attractor. So kind of an "elites of the elites" type of deal.

Songcaller

Yeah, I've mentioned before that if the raids are the best versions from all mmos then countless 'elite guilds' will partake so who will become the top 1% would be debatable. However, Noanni doesn't play WoW so I believe the WoW Guilds would be trumped in such a case.

Aerlana

NiKr wrote: »

WoW devs know that players will literally have a program telling them where and when to stand/move, so they can make the mechanics so unreasonably difficult that you can beat the encounter only with the help of such programs. One could argue that it's the "true difficulty" of the game, because it's that hard, but I just personally disagree with that kind of thinking. Iirc FF14 tells players where to stand through their own UI, right? So if you wanted to make a boss whose mechanics gotta be dodged like a dance (as you pointed out) - you're free to design it that way and people will have to have the skill to do so. I'm all for those kinds of fights, but against the type of fights where the game tells you literally nothing, yet presents an impossible fight.

For me, the best fight would be chaotic fights, with no call outside of movement of the model of the boss, as BNS, BDO or Lost Ark are doing.

About design : yes, they also include boss mods, but, boss mods are just tools doing call instead of have the RL doing the calls. Not many mechanic makes the boss mods really usefull.
It doesn't change that a boss you kill after 40-50 wipe is a boss quite easy to learn, wow devs don't develop fight with the idea people will use tool, they define fight in a way it is difficult, in a way they will need try after try to discover strategy, learn it, train on it, and finally getting closer and closer to the kill.
If you design your fight at a set difficulty you think "high end difficulty" and players end annihilating this fight... You just have to admit you did easy. You can check if they cheated (but if lot of raid do it... the cheat is quite obvious) or bug exploit (same) or just admit your fight was too easy.

Also, FFXI did PW and AV without minding if people use tracker or not, battle assistant or not, because FFXI devs didnt care about it, they wanted to do bosses with a crazy difficulty. . . Difficulty is just where you want the cursor to be, the tools player have don't impact this.

But now, all i see is mostly around battle assistant, tracker help to build strategy and said example on my post, but it doesn't remove at all the need to use your brain, eyes. And then work on apply strategy perfectly.

For a high difficult fight shown now :
FFXIV : ARR was not when they did their first boss fight. Yoshida became lead of FFXIV far before ARR, and did add content, patch and fights. They still needed 1 expansion to be able to define well how they want their mid tier and high tier fights, and design it a way they avoid the players to cheese most bosses.
So first bosses will remain probably easier that what they aim. (it can also be fine, or harder).
Then, back to the pace of release question... developping fights doesnt need years of work of tons of people... more about few months, with one or a really small team. FFXIV/WoW team for those fight are always few people, one designer per fight. So i don't expect getting an idea of midtier fight (what they could show) before few months before release.

The debate, like many debate on those forum, have to consider what was said and not yet changed, is still their target.

Honest question for you (or also maiwaifu) :
A good PvE is not only about high end, but what i call "midtier". For wow it would be normal/heroic bosses for example, in FFXIV, the extrem primals.
Do you really want to be able, to go on the high tier bosses, no matter what, or you just want a PvE giving you challenges, rewards, and the will to push for more ?

WHen i say "impossible to have a real difficulty on fight without some DPS check" i mean it. But... only for top fights. Normal raid, but also heroic raids (wow), or xtrem primals (FFXIV) can be really interesting fight, with fun, tricky or hard mechanics even if easier than top fights. but what is the most reduced is the DPS check.
Many players don't even know, or others forgot, that Xtrem primals on FFXIV have a hard enrage... because it is rarely reached, boss die before... or wipe happens before.

Ludullu

Aerlana wrote: »

Honest question for you (or also maiwaifu) :
A good PvE is not only about high end, but what i call "midtier". For wow it would be normal/heroic bosses for example, in FFXIV, the extrem primals.
Do you really want to be able, to go on the high tier bosses, no matter what, or you just want a PvE giving you challenges, rewards, and the will to push for more ?

I have no real preconceived notions about what the content should be, outside of that it should have pvp somewhere around it (before/during/after). I expect to see a wide range of difficulty of bosses, but if there'll be only one super high one - I'd be fine with it.

Aerlana

NiKr wrote: »

I have no real preconceived notions about what the content should be, outside of that it should have pvp somewhere around it (before/during/after). I expect to see a wide range of difficulty of bosses, but if there'll be only one super high one - I'd be fine with it.

This was not really my question.

How many time, on wow or FFXIV : ARR i saw people complained for content being too hard, and so reserved to only small part.
Making a content difficult is not really a "there is this way or this way". Sure, there are various tools to create difficulty. But the more difficult you aim, the more of those tools you will use because each has its limit, but also because each player will have preference of what he find to be an interesting challenge.

You messages feels like some kind of way to create difficulty do not fit at all your taste. And, so you fear that the game with tracker would have too much of them. But in reality this is a problem only if you want to have all fight being in what you think fight are good. If you are fine considering that maybe you won't be able to do all PvE content of the game, because some requesting far too much time/energy investment in the game, there is nothing around those kind of way to create PvE fight you dislike, because yes it will exist, but it won't be a rule on all fights...

On both FFXIV and WoW, i can say lot of fight i would define as easy/medium, that was still a good and fun challenge for a large part of the community. Without real DPS check but still mechanics that can be punitiv a lot.
My question is "are you fine with some PvE content with so many difficulty factors that you will probably never be able to clean it ?".

Ludullu

Aerlana wrote: »

You messages feels like some kind of way to create difficulty do not fit at all your taste. And, so you fear that the game with tracker would have too much of them. But in reality this is a problem only if you want to have all fight being in what you think fight are good. If you are fine considering that maybe you won't be able to do all PvE content of the game, because some requesting far too much time/energy investment in the game, there is nothing around those kind of way to create PvE fight you dislike, because yes it will exist, but it won't be a rule on all fights...

My only problem with the suggested difficulty (mainly by Noaani) is the "invisible" mechanics that can only be figured out by parsing a tracker. Those feel unfair to me.

Aerlana wrote: »

My question is "are you fine with some PvE content with so many difficulty factors that you will probably never be able to clean it ?".

There's a high chance that I won't consume even mid-lvl difficulty content because I dunno if my planned casual guild will even be doing pve content. I will make a hardcore character later on, once I establish myself as the best crafter around and have enough influence to get myself into a guild that would be clearing hard content. And if the game survives up until that point - I'll be fine with whatever difficulty that content has.

I have literally all the free time a person could possible have, so no content is a problem for me.

LordXp

143 pages of comments all about dps numbers. That's insane. Personally I dont feel like getting into pissing matches with randoms about weight pulling and not min/maxing dps/tanking/healing. I only see it as useful in a non toxic way is for damage testing and fine tuning your build. For that I'd say if you have test dummies in the world or on your property, let those tell you the damage you can output

Mag7spy

LordXp wrote: »

143 pages of comments all about dps numbers. That's insane. Personally I dont feel like getting into pissing matches with randoms about weight pulling and not min/maxing dps/tanking/healing. I only see it as useful in a non toxic way is for damage testing and fine tuning your build. For that I'd say if you have test dummies in the world or on your property, let those tell you the damage you can output

It literarily is just the same small handful of people talking 80% of the time trying to tell everyone they should want dps meters.

Amaa

Maybe some compromise ..

There will be different servers, so some servers can be marked with a built-in dps meter and others clean and everyone will be happy, from the programming point there is no big problem.

No one will come in the way of anyone or spoil the fun

Regards

Aerlana

NiKr wrote: »

There's a high chance that I won't consume even mid-lvl difficulty content because I dunno if my planned casual guild will even be doing pve content. I will make a hardcore character later on, once I establish myself as the best crafter around and have enough influence to get myself into a guild that would be clearing hard content. And if the game survives up until that point - I'll be fine with whatever difficulty that content has.

I have literally all the free time a person could possible have, so no content is a problem for me.

Ok, so yes, high end difficulty is a real topic for you.
For how nooani sees it, and i see it, and what you fear also, it feels for me partially out of topic. I personally am not favorable at totally hidden... by totally hidden i think that not even a motion of the boss can do a potential hint that anything happened. But even when there is hint for all, tracker can remain helpfull to see what is happening (the hand motion and speak says anything happen, but for 10, 20, 30 second nothing... more motion meanwhile and mechanics before the "hand motion" do a landing attack. or also, begining a random timer of when the next step occurs. the tracker will help because it will track each damage/debuff/buff/heal on the fight, so any "strange" data will be a "maybe it is link to hand motion" )

This will be to the dev fight team to do it. And the existence of tracker in reality is not really so impactfull.
Some fight in MMORPG history were really cryptic even without "oh, they will see what happened with datas on log/tracker"

This is also thing that can change, with or without tracker, after first fight done, many time.

SongRune

Amaa wrote: »

Maybe some compromise ..

There will be different servers, so some servers can be marked with a built-in dps meter and others clean and everyone will be happy, from the programming point there is no big problem.

No one will come in the way of anyone or spoil the fun

Regards

I dislike this suggestion. There will be trackers on both of those servers, but the ones on the "no trackers" server will then actually be biased to only toxic users (the non-toxic ones will be on the "yes trackers" server), which will create a selection bias effect that will cement the false association between trackers and toxicity in many players minds.

If there are the same ratio of toxic tracker players to non-toxic tracker players as there are toxic players to non-toxic players in general, but you put all the non-toxic ones on a specific "trackers allowed" server, you're making all the "no trackers please" players lives unnecessarily difficult, and giving a normal community an undeserved bad reputation with those players.

Ludullu

Aerlana wrote: »

This will be to the dev fight team to do it. And the existence of tracker in reality is not really so impactfull.
Some fight in MMORPG history were really cryptic even without "oh, they will see what happened with datas on log/tracker"

This is also thing that can change, with or without tracker, after first fight done, many time.

That's the main contradiction for me though. If tracker is not impactful why have it? And if it is impactful then why not design fights where you don't need it.

Noaani says that devs can't make a truly difficult piece of content w/o accounting for players using trackers. That leads me to believe that trackers are wildly impactful on the content and its potential difficulty.

akabear

Early L2, the bosses were not tethered.

A few instances a major raid boss was lured across the map and into the most populous town, and it wrought havoc on the 100s of afk player shops.. with dead player drops to be picked up.

Another instance, a raid boss was lured into the pvp arena where there were no death penalties and instant respawn on death... so a small group were able to take down the boss with ease.

I wonder what level of tethering will be in place!

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Aerlana wrote: »

This will be to the dev fight team to do it. And the existence of tracker in reality is not really so impactfull.
Some fight in MMORPG history were really cryptic even without "oh, they will see what happened with datas on log/tracker"

This is also thing that can change, with or without tracker, after first fight done, many time.

That's the main contradiction for me though. If tracker is not impactful why have it? And if it is impactful then why not design fights where you don't need it.

Noaani says that devs can't make a truly difficult piece of content w/o accounting for players using trackers. That leads me to believe that trackers are wildly impactful on the content and its potential difficulty.

Even if a tracker were to not be impactful in regards to having an effect on content in any way at all, it is worth having purely for its bug identification faculties.

That aspect of a tracker alone makes them worth having in a game, everything else is just an argument as to how worth it they are, imo.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Aerlana wrote: »

This will be to the dev fight team to do it. And the existence of tracker in reality is not really so impactfull.
Some fight in MMORPG history were really cryptic even without "oh, they will see what happened with datas on log/tracker"

This is also thing that can change, with or without tracker, after first fight done, many time.

That's the main contradiction for me though. If tracker is not impactful why have it? And if it is impactful then why not design fights where you don't need it.

Noaani says that devs can't make a truly difficult piece of content w/o accounting for players using trackers. That leads me to believe that trackers are wildly impactful on the content and its potential difficulty.

Or someone is bsing trying to manipulate logic to say you need trackers to make hard content. I've said it before, there is a reason why they won't talk about ways to make content without trackers since that isn't their goal. They simply just want eyes and control of a situation to figure out whom to kick for future content or force people to do exactly what they say else be kicked (even if that doesn't work).

If content revolves around invisible mechanics with no hints it is bad content. If you are trying to use a trackers to figure out certain mechanics you are also cheating.

The question for any game you play is what makes the content hard with the exact mechanics. That is the best way to have a open dialogue on what kind of content is fair and what content has been ruined by trackers.

@NiKr Though i doubt anyone is going to start being unbias and explain past content they have done because that all needs to be a secret to push trackers. They don't want any sensible person questioning it

. 9001% their arguments will all fall apart for trackers and imo all that will be left is the toxicity part to control others.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Aerlana wrote: »

This will be to the dev fight team to do it. And the existence of tracker in reality is not really so impactfull.
Some fight in MMORPG history were really cryptic even without "oh, they will see what happened with datas on log/tracker"

This is also thing that can change, with or without tracker, after first fight done, many time.

That's the main contradiction for me though. If tracker is not impactful why have it? And if it is impactful then why not design fights where you don't need it.

Noaani says that devs can't make a truly difficult piece of content w/o accounting for players using trackers. That leads me to believe that trackers are wildly impactful on the content and its potential difficulty.

Even if a tracker were to not be impactful in regards to having an effect on content in any way at all, it is worth having purely for its bug identification faculties.

That aspect of a tracker alone makes them worth having in a game, everything else is just an argument as to how worth it they are, imo.

Not a reason for trackers no.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Not a reason for trackers no.

So, when someone that has spent years working CS says "the job of CS people is much easier when players can give us objective data rather than just subjective opinions along with their bug reports", how would you not say that bug reporting is not a reason to have trackers?

You are free to say it is not a reason you like, or not something you consider to be a good enough reason, but you can't really say it isn't a reason at all without also saying that the CS person in question doesn't know what they are talking about.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Not a reason for trackers no.

So, when someone that has spent years working CS says "the job of CS people is much easier when players can give us objective data rather than just subjective opinions along with their bug reports", how would you not say that bug reporting is not a reason to have trackers?

You are free to say it is not a reason you like, or not something you consider to be a good enough reason, but you can't really say it isn't a reason at all without also saying that the CS person in question doesn't know what they are talking about.

Keep trying to manipulate peoples words and skew them to fit your own narrative. If they supports trackers in AoC and wants them they will say it exactly and then you can quote.

In the mean time you can keep your disgusting behavior out of your post.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Not a reason for trackers no.

So, when someone that has spent years working CS says "the job of CS people is much easier when players can give us objective data rather than just subjective opinions along with their bug reports", how would you not say that bug reporting is not a reason to have trackers?

You are free to say it is not a reason you like, or not something you consider to be a good enough reason, but you can't really say it isn't a reason at all without also saying that the CS person in question doesn't know what they are talking about.

Keep trying to manipulate peoples words and skew them to fit your own narrative. If they supports trackers in AoC and wants them they will say it exactly and then you can quote.

In the mean time you can keep your disgusting behavior out of your post.

I mean, I asked you a question.

How disgusting!

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Not a reason for trackers no.

So, when someone that has spent years working CS says "the job of CS people is much easier when players can give us objective data rather than just subjective opinions along with their bug reports", how would you not say that bug reporting is not a reason to have trackers?

You are free to say it is not a reason you like, or not something you consider to be a good enough reason, but you can't really say it isn't a reason at all without also saying that the CS person in question doesn't know what they are talking about.

Keep trying to manipulate peoples words and skew them to fit your own narrative. If they supports trackers in AoC and wants them they will say it exactly and then you can quote.

In the mean time you can keep your disgusting behavior out of your post.

I mean, I asked you a question.

How disgusting!

All you can do is manipulate and whine about trackers when Steven told you no. Person the deserves the least amount of respect honestly is you. Keep trying to manipulate peoples words it won't prove anything.

Said it before and ill say it again, you are toxic, and i don't trust trackers in your hands, nor do I trust your words.

Child Item