Narrow dungeons vs open dungeons

I always preferred narrow ones since it’s such a contrast to the open world we usually roam in and line of sight, movement, placement becomes more important in combat.

How about you?

Much love ❤️

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WHIT3ROS3

I'm familiar with the wiki. It does not say that they are one and done.

Why do you want 'loot' that has no tie to where it came from?

What? Where did I say that? Having a thematic range of self-contained storylines within the world of Verra which give cosmetic drops related to that dungeon's story/theme. Is the opposite of that. It's thematic, fun and wouldn't affect the economy.

I think the way you describe having dungeons in the game is very limited, I also think your scope is way off. 6 instanced dungeons? In the entire game? Huh? Considering each race is planned to have instanced content related to storylines etc. That alone would be a bare minimum of 9.

When it comes to instanced-based content... I think a spread something along the lines of.

Solo Instanced PvE - (Enter an instance solo and fight NPCs)
Solo Instanced PvX - (Enter an instance solo and fight NPCs that others can also enter solo and contest)
Small Group Instanced PvE - (Enter an instance as a group and fight NPCs)
Small Group Instanced PvX - (Enter an instance as a group and fight NPCs that others can also enter as groups and contest)
Small Solo Instanced PvP - (Enter a instanced death match/Arena for 1v1 PVP)
Small Group Instanced - (Enter an instanced death match/ Arena/ Battleground for group PVP)
8 16 and 40 Man Raids - (Enter an instance for a raid)

(Also housing and quest lines will use instances)

Obviously, the Open world will have the lion's share of content for all of the above scenarios. There should be content curated toward all of this.

Sapiverenus

Well if it's what they're wearing, in their pockets, around the dungeon, et cetera it's all good to me.

Ludullu

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

Solo Instanced PvE - (Enter an instance solo and fight NPCs)
Solo Instanced PvX - (Enter an instance solo and fight NPCs that others can also enter solo and contest)
Small Group Instanced PvE - (Enter an instance as a group and fight NPCs)
Small Group Instanced PvX - (Enter an instance as a group and fight NPCs that others can also enter as groups and contest)
Small Solo Instanced PvP - (Enter a instanced death match/Arena for 1v1 PVP)
Small Group Instanced - (Enter an instanced death match/ Arena/ Battleground for group PVP)
8 16 and 40 Man Raids - (Enter an instance for a raid)

And as long as all those are

not intended to be places that can be farmed repeatedly.

I'd be fine with them. Well, obviously arena is a repeatable thing, but I don't see those as instanced content, even if they technically are.

And as for race story-based instances, I'm not sure if we've seen any indication that each race will have a story separate enough to warrant a whole instance encounter. Yes, there'll be class (and maybe race) story quests, but we don't know if that's the "story" of the game.

Strevi wrote: »

When people say 'instanced' they also assume or know that they are in a private instance?
Instance could be just a dungeon on a separated server, with a transition waiting screen, but still accessible to multiple teams and with PvP enabled (or not enabled but still competitive).

So what kind of instanced dungeons will we have?

How can that location be "private" if others can enter it? L2 had such dungeons but literally no one called them instanced because they weren't. If others can mess with your farm that's not instanced content because you don't have a personal instance of said content.

Ashes had these types of location in alpha1. The volcano dragon needed you to TP through a portal to get to him. Don't recall anyone calling that dragon "instanced".

WHIT3ROS3

Instanced content is any content happening outside the open world. Everything and anything. Regardless if you consider it instanced or if people call it by another name. It is by literal definition, instanced. Anything that requires a loading screen (even if well hidden) is instanced content.

"And as for race story-based instances, I'm not sure if we've seen any indication that each race will have a story separate enough to warrant a whole instance encounter. Yes, there'll be class (and maybe race) story quests, but we don't know if that's the "story" of the game."

I would be incredibly surprised and pretty disappointed if there aren't questlines covering each of the races. I don't mean a singular QL that only players of that race can do (Like a starting leveling experience) but rather a storyline where you as a player (and/or as a group) embark on quests that explore the different races cultures providing information about their history, etc.

I do wonder what the scope of Quests and Storylines will be. Following the Development and listening to Steven talk it most certainly has the potential to be incredibly in-depth and expansive. It's certainly something I'd like to hear talked about on a future Dev stream.

Dolyem

Both. If I had to give an example of amazing dungeon design in relation to thus topic, I would have to use my favorite dungeon from WoW, Maraudon. Talk about a perfect mix of narrow corridors, options as far as pathing goes, and absolutely gorgeous large expanses and rooms with great NPCs to compliment the environment changes.
I'll never forget the first time I entered the waterfall area after pushing through the tunnel area. Perfect execution of a transition between major parts of a dungeon. The use of environment that wasn't even crucial to the completion of the dungeon also added scale to the area, and really held an impact for me.

Definitely hope the open world dungeons have variety in both cramped dungeon halls and massive caverns and chambers to provide sense of scale and allow for all sorts of fights and monsters to encounter.

Strevi

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

Instanced content is any content happening outside the open world. Everything and anything. Regardless if you consider it instanced or if people call it by another name. It is by literal definition, instanced. Anything that requires a loading screen (even if well hidden) is instanced content.

Additionally there would be multiple instances: two players might not see each other but could see other players around, if they forget to team up before entering. That is what I call a non-private instance. Such things used to happen for performance reason.

Now in AoC, they can have 500 players close to each-other in a node siege instance.
So maybe the 20% of instanced content is indeed intended to be only for a single player or a single team.
How much is for story and how much is to be used later once the player leveled up?

NiKr wrote: »

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

Both Instanced and Open world dungeons are planned. There will be instances.

I think there should be dynamically spawning instanced dungeon entrances that appear across the open world in a similar way to resource nodes.

Instances will be one-time things and comprise only 20% of the overall dungeon amount. I'd rather see that kind of dungeon design as a huge open world thing rather than a one-time thing with no good gear and no pvp interaction.

I would also prefer the story related parts to be less than 20% and developers to focus on end game open world content.

Sapiverenus

@Strevi
Why would you want the devs to focus on end game? As in end-level?
I think MMOs need to be designed to be always mid-game lol; journey not the destination.

So a level 100 contributes more but still can't solo 3 - 4 man level 50 content unless the content is easier for their class or something and the player is quite skilled at executing and using terrain to their advantage or pop a lot of consumables such as bombs; maybe they bring their mount dragging a cannon to help take down 1 difficult entity, and the mount can attack as well. Maybe they set up a barricade outside to draw entities to where there's some form of a trap or advantage.

But basically players should start at Level 20 and max at Level 80. 80 being 4x the power of level 20. And mostly nothing really soloable.

What would be your issue with this developer focus?

Okeydoke

Asgerr wrote: »

I only hope that not all dungeons are subterranean affairs.

Same here. Being underground in dark places all the time gets very boring. I'd love to see some above ground "dungeons." Like Lost Vale in Warhammer Online. Not the majority, just some above ground.

Strevi

Sapiverenus wrote: »

@Strevi
Why would you want the devs to focus on end game? As in end-level?
I think MMOs need to be designed to be always mid-game lol; journey not the destination.

The time to level up is already decided: 45 days

On release the developers anticipate max level should be attainable in approximately 45 days if playing 4-6 hours per day.[13][14]

That is quite a short time and somehow will pass. I don't feel that all the leveling process has to be covered with instances, offering safety and telling stories to the player.
Else, if leveling (journey) would be the important one, I agree. The game could be made to require players at all levels at all times, to provide low level resources needed for high recipes and low level PvP to work like the high level PvP. But the game doesn't seem to be designed with this in mind.

Sunboy

The cool thing about narrow dungeons if they are open would be if party X begin and party Y comes in behind. A player in a small guild (stronger) would be able to take on a bigger (Zerg) party, one on one in a corridor fit for only one.

Sapiverenus

@Strevi
Ah who knows. Will probably do better than every other MMO in that regard lol

Sapiverenus

@Sunboy
Hmm.
I imagined a narrow ravine or corridor to some fountain of youth or magic or something that becomes an Apothecaries jealous treasure lol. Renewable resource that rises from engraved stones and is used in potions or as a drink. Hence a fought over resource at times.
Just through a very narrow crack in the base of some low cliffside and there are the large grey blue black cut stones inlaid the end of said ravine; and slightly light and bubbling water coming up from them once a day.
You'd have to move sideways through it but there's room to turn halfway through. About 20 yards deep.

grisu

I don't think narrow or open dungeon matters. The dungeon design/ Identity does. It is what brings out the magic of excitment to want to run it again and again.
Tera's Kittycat witch house is practically just narrow hallways but is just such a fun design. It's a magic academy filled with witch cats and pumpkins and the like enslaved by adult witches.
WoW's Black Zitadell is an imposing bastion you had to bomb your way into through the sewers with big interconnected rooms that all make sense to have in a castle like this. You felt like you slaughtered your way to the top of it, through hordes of henchmen to meet Illidan.
There are good and bad examples on both sides, but the ones that are memorable are the ones that have an identity.
It's not the labyrinth that is exciting it's the reason of why it is a labyrinth in the first place. What is it protecting? What is it keeping in? Who are the wardens of it and why the heck is there a lifeless overgrown golem sitting here?

Not_A_Lizard

Sapiverenus wrote: »

@Sunboy
Hmm.
I imagined a narrow ravine or corridor to some fountain of youth or magic or something that becomes an Apothecaries jealous treasure lol. Renewable resource that rises from engraved stones and is used in potions or as a drink. Hence a fought over resource at times.
Just through a very narrow crack in the base of some low cliffside and there are the large grey blue black cut stones inlaid the end of said ravine; and slightly light and bubbling water coming up from them once a day.
You'd have to move sideways through it but there's room to turn halfway through. About 20 yards deep.

This would be cool for a few rare desirable locations. I wouldn't necessarily want it to be common in the game though. It seems like having these types of places all over could get tedious pretty quick. I don't know how fun it would be to be frequently a few players behind two people fighting to advance down super narrow corridors leading into dungeons. I could also see it being susceptible to griefing. It's a cool idea though.

Ace1234

I think map design is one of the most under-utilized tools for adding strategic depth. There is so many tactics that can be added through having a map design that allows you to flank, defend choke points, having blindspots, deducing enemy positions, covering lanes, having confrontations of varying distances, etc. All of this can be used to allow you to get the jump on an enemy, to position yourself well, and put yourself in advantageous positions while trying to exploit your enemy by puting them in disadvantageous positions. If these elements are there, then that can add new options for enemy mechanics that can be used that you have to deal with- while also adding to the pvp setting if they apply these principles to the pvp focused areas, or through the environmental design in general.

Taking inspiration from the elements of first person shooter map designs, such as call of duty or CSGO can be very beneficial for doing this, because a lot of these tactics are non-existent if its just big open areas with no cover or alternative routes to utilize.

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