DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

GetDatGreg wrote: »

Interested players will pursue high performance metrics regardless if they have a tracker on hand or not. People are always searching for guides and tips to improve. The tracker isn't the deciding factor in content completion. The quality of the content and the skill of the community is. The claim that a tracker will change how content is made is just a false one.

It's not false. If the devs provide a combat tracker they will design with the expectation that 100% of the playerbase will use them, rather than just the numbers-obsessed players.

No they wont.

That's like saying if Intrepid provide crafting classes, they will assume everyone will max out. Or if they provide PvP, everyone will be all for it.

Different people enjoy different things in an MMO, and it is a developers job to provide for all.

You know all of this perfectly well, you are just being argumentative because you have no real argument left

Dygz

They will design as if 100% of the playerbase will max out Crafting. Yes.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

They will design as if 100% of the playerbase will max out Crafting. Yes.

So what you are saying is - if you dont want to get involved in crafting, Ashes isnt the game for you?

I mean, they very obviously wont design the game based in everyone crafting. Literally no MMO has ever done that in history.

Ludullu

It could be argued that the whole artisanal system is quite literally "100% of people crafting" because it's all interconnected in one way or the other. And it's interconnected exactly because Intrepid designed it for the 100% of people.

And the pvp is designed in an almost-impossible-to-avoid way too. And the whole world is built around the idea of pvp being unavoidable.

And they could either design pve for everyone, and disregard those who want to crunch numbers (in the same way that pvers are somewhat disregarded with the unavoidable pvp), or they could provide trackers to everyone and maybe even implement some form of guide that would help people read the tracker properly.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

It could be argued that the whole artisanal system is quite literally "100% of people crafting" because it's all interconnected in one way or the other. And it's interconnected exactly because Intrepid designed it for the 100% of people.

I mean, I know a lot of people that never engage with a games crafting system at all - just as I have known many players that never engage with a games raiding content at all, or never engage with a games arenas at all.

Dygz' comment that if Intrepid implement a thing - any thing - in to the game then they would need to assume everyone uses it is just outright incorrect.

Sapiverenus

Aerlana wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

re-posted in the correct thread!

As i said in the post you quoted, tracker is a minor subject that won't change the base philosophy of the game.
Or if you go this way, so, no debate should happen on forum about what is already said (so... no debate about corruption ... which is the most common thing here... )

If you really think that have a in game tracker would be a change of the philosophy of the game... i would be interesed about your arguments this way.
The impact of the game itself would be lesser than, for example... making no corruption in open sea (while all expected it wouldnt be the case as reminder)

While, the idea on the topic where my message comes from, which is making some nodes a NPC territory to reconquer is a deep change : like other ideas of this guy, it would transform part of the game world to a "survival game", ... literally another kind of video game.

And... this debate is in its place on this forum, after all the first post invite to get all discussion around tracker here, and is from... Steven.

What is this genre thinking. . . It's a power dynamic.
Most games advertised as "Survival" are what; Zombie Survival? Generally some sort of scavenging sort of thing? Then what is Gathering? I don't think Gathering should be the focus of the game of course; there's plenty of other stuff to do.

Is Left 4 Dead a survival game? You survive but it's not really about scavenging.
I really do not know what people are thinking of because it is ambiguous when they start talking about genres and "other video games" as if alluding to something well-known.
"Survival" is just a fight or die dynamic, and present in every game you can die in.

Many of these threats could be economic, simply territorial, or a threat to something specific like Metals (rust? stone golems eating different metals?).

It's not very contradictory to have PvE pressure the players & world. In fact it's rather aligned to their current intent given sieges, hostile events; and the player collision allows stuff to be balanced based on max # of effective people in one location.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

I mean, I know a lot of people that never engage with a games crafting system at all - just as I have known many players that never engage with a games raiding content at all, or never engage with a games arenas at all.

How many games required or, at the very least, encouraged those players to partake in those activities though?

L2 made you pve in order to get levels and gear and made you pvp to be able to pve. So both were kinda required. But its crafting wasn't really required cause you could just buy stuff on the market.

AoC will have the same approach with pvx, but it will also heavily encourage participation in the overall artisanal system, purely based on the sheer amount of various way to participate. I feel like it'd be at least somewhat difficult to find a person who's disinterested in literally that entire system. I'm sure there'll be at least a few, but I'd bet their numbers will be dismissible in the grand scheme of things.

And if you want to participate in some part of the system, you kinda made to interact with its other parts.

Sapiverenus

GetDatGreg wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

It would change the design philosphy signifciantly because the devs would design encounters with the expectation that everyone is relying on combat trackers to succeed.

I disagree. There are going to be people who parse through the data regardless if there is a tracker available to them or not, and that data will be disseminated to the community through one way or another. People will utilize that information to put out higher performance regardless. Having a combat tracker available merely changes the amount of time needed to put together the data, offering more tools to the average player to improve their performance if they so choose. This leads to less disinformation and more build discussion within the community, not a complete change in design philosophy for PvE content.

Bar graphs are dumb though. I'd rather see the damage/ effect on the enemy.

Sapiverenus

@Aerlana
Your idea of what's design philosphy and what isn't is questionable.

Sapiverenus

Aerlana wrote: »

they added some easy difficulty to please the majority of their customer who wouldn't spend time/effort in those high difficult content.

Playerbase stagnated in WoTLK then started dropping thereafter.
The majority began leaving lol and the majority began saying "no thanks" when people tried to get them interested in the game. During Vanilla/ TBC you could convince people to join the game. After TBC you couldn't. After WotLK they just started leaving.

Easy mode and making multiple versions of the dungeons/ raids is part of what killed it. Just make it hard and give something to do to everyone else. Make the threat real.

Trivializing content in a WORLD is what kills the World aspect of it. Don't gamify/ GIMMICK a World. People want the World not the gimmick of difficulty/ convenience.

Dolyem

No really Intrepid, we need an unfollow button for individual discussions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YYFFeVzmsw

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I mean, I know a lot of people that never engage with a games crafting system at all - just as I have known many players that never engage with a games raiding content at all, or never engage with a games arenas at all.

How many games required or, at the very least, encouraged those players to partake in those activities though?

There is almost always an economic advantage to participating.

Sure, there wont be a lot of people in the game that sont participate at all in crafting - but that isnt the point.

The point is thatDygz said the game will be designed around 100% participation - which Ashes will not, and no MMO ever has been.

Even then that wasnt the actual point, it was an illustration of the point. That original point being Dygz suggesting that Intrepid inplementing a combat tracker to the game would mean all content would be designed around 100% of people using that tracker.

Very few modern MMO's these days even assume 100% participation in their combat system (note; I am not talking about L2 here). Even back in 2004, EQ2 didnt expect everyone to participate in combat. The developers knew there would be people only interested in crafting, and people only interested in decorating houses (these people because some of the richest in the game).

We can go even further than this, many games have various consumables found within that game. If Dygz suggestion were to be true, the fact that developers add these consumables to the game would then mean that 100% of content needs to be designed around players using them.

My point was - and still is - that the comment of 100% content being designed with tracker use in mind if trackers are in the game is just outright incorrect.

Hinotori

Dolyem wrote: »

No really Intrepid, we need an unfollow button for individual discussions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YYFFeVzmsw

It's only been 150 pages

akabear

Yes, 150 pages, but just one more they said!

Mag7spy

I see nothing has changed, still same people makin dumb arguments because they want trackers lmao. Half their arguments go based off their biased assumptions "Hey this is going to happen no matter what because i said so give us trackers" Actually dumb.

Mag7spy

imagine protesting this hard for years and like 2 or one person just spamming in thread to push it back to top when no one else cares.

Strevi

OP got all tricks by now.I bet the game will punish DPS meter users.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

imagine protesting this hard for years and like 2 or one person just spamming in thread to push it back to top when no one else cares.

Actually, it's always random people that push this thread to the top - usually people that were not signed up on these forums at the time of the post before the one they made.

I have personally never posted in this thread unless there is a post that I feel warrants a reply, and also have never posted to it if the thread is not on the front page (and rarely if it is not in the top half of the front page).

Mag7spy wrote: »

I see nothing has changed, still same people makin dumb arguments because they want trackers lmao. Half their arguments go based off their biased assumptions "Hey this is going to happen no matter what because i said so give us trackers" Actually dumb.

The reason the same arguments are being made is because those arguments have not been rebuffed.

People want to say trackers cause toxicity, yet no one can explain why some games with high tracker use have low toxicity, and some games with low tracker use have high toxicity.

The problem there isn't that we are making the same arguments, it is that no one has a response to the arguments made - yet people against trackers continue to post without making any actual reasoned arguments against this point.

Strevi

Noaani wrote: »

People want to say trackers cause toxicity, yet no one can explain why some games with high tracker use have low toxicity, and some games with low tracker use have high toxicity.

That's easy.

Trackers favor reason.
Lack of trackers favor emotions (good and bad).
Trackers help to see things clearly, removing the false sense of superiority and possibility to blame others.
The word "toxic" is used by those who cannot adapt and cry. They leave and play other MMOs.

Noaani

Strevi wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

People want to say trackers cause toxicity, yet no one can explain why some games with high tracker use have low toxicity, and some games with low tracker use have high toxicity.

That's easy.
Trackers favor reason.
Lack of trackers favor emotions (good and bad).
Trackers help to see things clearly, removing the false sense of superiority and possibility to blame others.
The word "toxic" is used by those who cannot adapt and cry. They leave and play other MMOs.

While I appreciate your reasoning here, this would then lead to toxicity in games like WoW not being possible.

If you look over all MMO's, there are games with low tracker use and high toxicity (Archeage), games with low tracker use and low toxicity (early FFXIV), games with high tracker use and high toxicity (WoW), and games with high tracker use and low toxicity (EQ2, among many others).

The only constant among all MMO's is that trackers have no objective impact on over all levels of toxicity in MMO's.

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