Crafting systems (inspired by PotionCraft)

I think the game "PotionCraft" invented a genius crafting system that is worth being considered as a system inside an MMO:

Instead of binding a certain Item with certain stats to a predefined recipe with fixed ingredients, PotionCraft locates the stats for a potion at certain positions on a map. You then use a diverse range of ingredients to move, rotate, and maybe even scale the item on that map. The closer you navigate the item to the exact position, rotation, and scale of the stats you want, the better the effect is on your item. The ingredients move you in waves, zig-zag lines, loops, half-circles, etc... Different paths that are useful at different locations on the map.

The map has obstacles that can destroy the item if you move over them, slowing down or accelerating the movement of the item on that map, so you have to navigate around them or purposefully navigate over them using your ingredients.

Once you created an item, you can save the recipe in your book, so you don't have to repeat the steps every time you create the same item.

PotionCraft applies the concept to potions only, but you can also use the concept for crafting weapons, clothing, armor, and maybe even animal husbandry.

For weapons the system could provide a single map (blueprint) per weapon and navigation to certain points means adding certain stats to the weapon.

In the context of AoC, a system like this would come with a couple of interesting side effects:

1. Low-level ingredients stay useful as they allow you to move around the map like any other ingredients.
2. Higher-level ingredients may add rotation and/or scaling and allow you to navigate around the map faster, maybe they allow you to jump over a certain distance, so you don't have to navigate around a hurdle.
3. Arbitrary recipes can be invented by the players. Having found a particularly cost-efficient recipe can be an advantage for a crafter. This adds depth to the system without making it too complicated for those who aren't interested in optimizing their recipes.

What do you all think about such an approach to crafting? Would this be too much for a subsystem of a game?

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Ludullu

achereto wrote: »

What do you all think about such an approach to crafting? Would this be too much for a subsystem of a game?

Considering that you don't have to repeat the whole process for future craft I think it'd be great. And with some good "map" design this system could even represent the crafter's skill in finding the best approach. And you could then sell the blueprint of that path, if you want to.

And the "dials" that Intrepid has talked about in their design could provide an easier way across the map. Smth like "if you max out the m.atk dial, the crafting map has the least amount of obstacles in the m.atk direction".

Azherae

I see this as 'developer busywork' to implement a system that will then later be viewed by many players as busywork.

However, since players are often easily influenced by the initial impression/feeling of something, particularly in crafting, it might be a good way to get people into it.

I don't personally believe that encouraging more people to craft is necessary or even optimal, given the goals of the game we know so far.

So 'too much'? No, I'd love it. 'Worth doing'? I would vote no if it were up to a vote.

Warth

Now we are talking. Good idea.

Things like that should exist for all professions.

achereto

NiKr wrote: »

[...]
And you could then sell the blueprint of that path, if you want to.
[...]

Not sure about that part. That's the kind of shortcut I wouldn't like to have in such a system, except if selling it doesn't duplicate the blueprint.

Azherae wrote: »

[...]
I don't personally believe that encouraging more people to craft is necessary or even optimal, given the goals of the game we know so far.
[...]

Would that even be an "encouragement" in that sense? My thought was more along the lines that those who would choose a crafting profession anyways would like such a system, but those who aren't crafters anyways would see it as a reason not to dive into crafting.

Azherae

achereto wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

[...]
And you could then sell the blueprint of that path, if you want to.
[...]

Not sure about that part. That's the kind of shortcut I wouldn't like to have in such a system, except if selling it doesn't duplicate the blueprint.

Azherae wrote: »

[...]
I don't personally believe that encouraging more people to craft is necessary or even optimal, given the goals of the game we know so far.
[...]

Would that even be an "encouragement" in that sense? My thought was more along the lines that those who would choose a crafting profession anyways would like such a system, but those who aren't crafters anyways would see it as a reason not to dive into crafting.

Is that what the people you know, are like? My experience is that when people get 'bored' or their friends aren't on, they start looking for random things to do, and "I guess I'll try some crafting/lifeskilling" is often top of the list.

In order for what you say to be true and the above to also be true, the only way they'd end up 'not getting into crafting' is if the system was not 'fun on its own' to them.

achereto

Honestly, I don't know many MMO players. The last MMO I played was WoW during Burning Crusade, which is quite some time ago, and back then I found the crafting system disappointingly shallow, especially when it came to crafting legendary items. All I can do is assume that other crafters are of a similar mindset.

The few gatherer-people I know are more like "Just let me run around and collect the stuff I want to collect. Don't even dare think about giving me any minigame for my gathering. A short process bar is more than enough." They'd probably be appalled by such a system. 😅

Ludullu

achereto wrote: »

Not sure about that part. That's the kind of shortcut I wouldn't like to have in such a system, except if selling it doesn't duplicate the blueprint.

But that's just an extra income source and another way to sell your skill at a good price. You might've moved on from crafting t2 stuff, but you could then sell you top lvl blueprints to the newcomers.

And yeah, you could just make that copy a "one-use" type of thing, so that others couldn't sell them further. And to prevent potential "I made another path by copying what I bought and changing the last step in the process" you could have some limit on the steps the crafter could take in one general direction (based on the possible stat changes in the item) and if the crafter knows a recipe that has reached that limit, but didn't make that path themselves - they can't copy and sell recipes from that direction.

This would keep the reputation of the original blueprint creator, while still allowing people to craft the item at that lvl (if they bought the copy of the blueprint from the og).

Alternatively each crafting path could be completely randomized but I feel like that would kinda go against the player agency and the 100% crafting chance Intrepid wants.

MrPockets

These are the type of conversations I'm really interested in diving deep into during alpha 2, or whenever the devs are ready to heavily test the crafting systems.

I'm a huge fan of ANY innovation to MMO crafting. I'm just so bored of the standard, "press a button, watch a progress bar" 'gameplay'.

I think this idea is one of many crafting 'minigames' that can be adapted to an MMO. The main things I want from a new crafting system are:

Allow the crafter's skill to shine through. ie: strategy, planning, reaction time, unique ideas, etc.
Allow the crafter to ADD value to the final product. ie: crafted good should always be more expensive than the materials used to make it.
High end players should want to seek out good crafters. ie: a player should not be able to be a high end PvXer AND a high end crafter. Let players specialize and interact with each other.

Anyway, love the idea, and happy to discuss more with fellow crafting enthusiasts. =]

Ludullu

MrPockets wrote: »

ie: a player should not be able to be a high end PvXer AND a high end crafter.

Not sure if I agree with this, but agree with everything else.

I'd say it should be difficult or very time-consuming to be both, but definitely doable.

MrPockets

NiKr wrote: »

MrPockets wrote: »

ie: a player should not be able to be a high end PvXer AND a high end crafter.

Not sure if I agree with this, but agree with everything else.

I'd say it should be difficult or very time-consuming to be both, but definitely doable.

Yep, I agree. I wasn't sure how to word it exactly. But yea, it should be only the most dedicated players who have the ability to have the best of both worlds.

achereto

For me, crafting is about carefully choosing every step to create the product you want. A crafter should be in full control of the final product, so reaction time and certain dexterity checks are a nogo for me. Crafting should be easy to learn and hard to master, e.g. it should be easy to craft a very expensive potion, but it should take a bit of thinking and planning to find the least expensive strategy.

Another aspect I found for this system: You don't have to spread certain ingredients all over the world. Instead you can have vastly different vegetation on every continent, without forteiting the ability to craft. People on the eastern continent may start with 4 ingrediants that allow for easy horizontal and vertical movement. On the eastern continent the ingredients may allow for easy diagonal movement instead. This can then have the consequence that certain stats on a weapon a cheaper on one continent than on the other, because it takes less of local ingedients to craft them.

The next consequence could then be, that ingredients from the other continent are always on high demand.

Sathrago

These sorts of systems add depth, and yes selling blueprints would happen or if the formulas are too easy to figure out, will be spread freely and everyone will know the best crafts. Either way the initial journey of discovery firmly imprints on players and it ultimately doesn't matter if all the solutions are eventually found. Besides, the discoveries wont all be there when new content is added, so a whole new second wind of experimentation will happen each time new materials are added to the game.

Another cool aspect of this sort of system is that it creates another material sink, where you experiment and refine your techniques on materials until you reach what you desire. not every potion will be valuable, and I would hope that there will be an option so that we can delete items quickly after crafting.

Warth

Sathrago wrote: »

These sorts of systems add depth, and yes selling blueprints would happen or if the formulas are too easy to figure out, will be spread freely and everyone will know the best crafts. Either way the initial journey of discovery firmly imprints on players and it ultimately doesn't matter if all the solutions are eventually found. Besides, the discoveries wont all be there when new content is added, so a whole new second wind of experimentation will happen each time new materials are added to the game.

Another cool aspect of this sort of system is that it creates another material sink, where you experiment and refine your techniques on materials until you reach what you desire. not every potion will be valuable, and I would hope that there will be an option so that we can delete items quickly after crafting.

The movements on the mao could be influence by your Alchemy skills you specc into, making the recipes player unique depending on the skills specced into.

MrPockets

achereto wrote: »

For me, crafting is about carefully choosing every step to create the product you want. A crafter should be in full control of the final product, so reaction time and certain dexterity checks are a nogo for me. Crafting should be easy to learn and hard to master, e.g. it should be easy to craft a very expensive potion, but it should take a bit of thinking and planning to find the least expensive strategy.

I generally agree with this, I just included an example of dexterity checks because it might be a an interesting way to differentiate yourself from other crafters. What pops into my head: maybe professions get different 'minigames'. So maybe a blacksmith needs to worry about hammer timing/accuracy, whereas an alchemist can focus on ingredients/planning.

I feel like in general there is a big push back on any sort of 'minigame' like this. I'm curious how the more dedicated crafters feel about it?

Sapiverenus

Azherae wrote: »

I see this as 'developer busywork' to implement a system that will then later be viewed by many players as busywork.

However, since players are often easily influenced by the initial impression/feeling of something, particularly in crafting, it might be a good way to get people into it.

I don't personally believe that encouraging more people to craft is necessary or even optimal, given the goals of the game we know so far.

So 'too much'? No, I'd love it. 'Worth doing'? I would vote no if it were up to a vote.

It's relatively simple to program and make assets for if we're talking about a PotionCraft clone.
I can see a 24h GameJam where someone makes a similar game.

Sapiverenus

achereto wrote: »

Honestly, I don't know many MMO players. The last MMO I played was WoW during Burning Crusade, which is quite some time ago, and back then I found the crafting system disappointingly shallow, especially when it came to crafting legendary items. All I can do is assume that other crafters are of a similar mindset.

The few gatherer-people I know are more like "Just let me run around and collect the stuff I want to collect. Don't even dare think about giving me any minigame for my gathering. A short process bar is more than enough." They'd probably be appalled by such a system. 😅

Basically there are some people willing to do what gatherers do because it's berry picking. As gathering is they like to zone out and half-nap; it's all it's good for lol.
Gathering could be difficult to improve enough that it's worth ruining people's nap lol

Azherae

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I see this as 'developer busywork' to implement a system that will then later be viewed by many players as busywork.

However, since players are often easily influenced by the initial impression/feeling of something, particularly in crafting, it might be a good way to get people into it.

I don't personally believe that encouraging more people to craft is necessary or even optimal, given the goals of the game we know so far.

So 'too much'? No, I'd love it. 'Worth doing'? I would vote no if it were up to a vote.

It's relatively simple to program and make assets for if we're talking about a PotionCraft clone.
I can see a 24h GameJam where someone makes a similar game.

Maybe so, but for Intrepid and their relatively tight scope, it's harder to say.

I've been thinking about this lately, I just didn't feel it was right to be negative about it for no reason, but quite simply, based only on what they have shown us so far, there's no reason to assume things are easy. There are multiple systems that this game needs that smaller teams do just 'in their spare time' or that are entire smaller games with functionally LARGER scope.

Maybe they're just keeping a whole bunch of stuff close to the chest for some reason, but there's multiple games that do 'what we should see for Nodes' as part of their core gameplay, but we 'never got Nodes 3 video'.

I don't actually care too much either way, but there's a reason you'll constantly hear 'wait until testing' and 'no scope creep!' responses even on the smaller things people suggest. At this point I'd settle for any concrete concept reveals at all. Hopefully the Ranger info will knock it out of the park like always.

Sapiverenus

Well until a game is released we can try and come up with a better version of Potion Crafting that outdoes PotionCraft I guess.
If I think of something I'll let yall know.

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