Bard Suggestion

I would like to see whistling be part of the bard's repertoire where it can act like a spell of sorts.
I would also like to see bards being able to "throw" music from their instruments like spells that do damage.
It would also be fun if their idle stances also included strumming/thumping on instruments or even scribbling on pages like they are composing a story.

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PenguinPaladin

Dygz wrote: »

Bard instruments should be weapons - similar to D&D.
Any class can use any weapon.

Instruments are currently not on the weapons list, so them not being weapons should be expected.

daveywavey

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Bard instruments should be weapons - similar to D&D.
Any class can use any weapon.

Instruments are currently not on the weapons list, so them not being weapons should be expected.

Yeah, that's why I'm wondering how the instrument/book is going to impact the gameplay. They've already said that they don't just want musical Bards, they also want speech to be involved.
"Bards will have a wide range of abilities to choose from, such as wordsmithing, acting, and musical aspects.[10]"
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bard
So, maybe an instrument/book will improve ordinary Bard skills, or some will only be available if you have that instrument/book (which would suck, as it would decrease the available skill options).

To be honest, I'd rather the Bard theme stayed implied, and I was able to use my weapon between skills, rather than trying to play an instrument & use my weapon between skills.

I'd really really like to know what Intrepid's plans are for the Bard. Feel like we've been waiting long enough! Let's hope our friendly neighbourhood hero Vaknar is reading...

PenguinPaladin

daveywavey wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Bard instruments should be weapons - similar to D&D.
Any class can use any weapon.

Instruments are currently not on the weapons list, so them not being weapons should be expected.

Yeah, that's why I'm wondering how the instrument/book is going to impact the gameplay. They've already said that they don't just want musical Bards, they also want speech to be involved.
"Bards will have a wide range of abilities to choose from, such as wordsmithing, acting, and musical aspects.[10]"
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bard
So, maybe an instrument/book will improve ordinary Bard skills, or some will only be available if you have that instrument/book (which would suck, as it would decrease the available skill options).

To be honest, I'd rather the Bard theme stayed implied, and I was able to use my weapon between skills, rather than trying to play an instrument & use my weapon between skills.

I'd really really like to know what Intrepid's plans are for the Bard. Feel like we've been waiting long enough! Let's hope our friendly neighbourhood hero Vaknar is reading...

Maybe it could fit in a trinket or jewelry slot? Idk how they will do it. But currently you will not be swinging a bass, or tooting a horn at the enemy.

Dygz

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Bard instruments should be weapons - similar to D&D.
Any class can use any weapon.

Instruments are currently not on the weapons list, so them not being weapons should be expected.

LMAO
Yeah, there's also not a list ot Bard Active Skills, so I guess we shouldn't expect those either.

Dygz

T Elf wrote: »

I would like to see whistling be part of the bard's repertoire where it can act like a spell of sorts.
I would also like to see bards being able to "throw" music from their instruments like spells that do damage.
It would also be fun if their idle stances also included strumming/thumping on instruments or even scribbling on pages like they are composing a story.

Speaking of Active Skills...
Yeah, much of that could be Active Skills similar to the Weaponmaster's Hammer Strike and Whirlwind, the Cleric's Castigation and Tank's Javelin.

PenguinPaladin

Dygz wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Bard instruments should be weapons - similar to D&D.
Any class can use any weapon.

Instruments are currently not on the weapons list, so them not being weapons should be expected.

LMAO
Yeah, there's also not a list ot Bard Active Skills, so I guess we shouldn't expect those either.

The weapons list lists "potion launchers" as a possible weapon, but doesnt list anything about instruments at all.... hmmmm. The weapons list lists bows even tho they have not been functionally implemented yet... hmmmmm..... i do not believe you will be swinging a guitar....

Crazy how much you try to stickler to whats in the wiki when it favors your arguments and now its like it doesnt even exist.

Dygz

Potion launchers were hand-weapons in APOC and will be pretty sure naval canons in Ashes.
I'm pretty sure the Predator demo included a Bow.
We know next to nothing about Bard combat, but Steven's expectation is that Bard physical instruments will be a Flute or a Violin - and those can be transmogged into Bagpipes (or some other instrument). Just because something is not listed in the wiki does not mean it's not been discussed by the devs. Transmog implies gear, like weapons.

I'm a stickler for what th devs have said about the Ashes game design. Yes. And the wiki helps with that.
But the wiki does not contain 100% of the Ashes game design nor even 100% of what the devs have stated.

Who said that Bards have to swing a Guitar? Each "weapon", including instruments, will have their own animations.

CROW3

Dygz wrote: »

Bard instruments should be weapons - similar to D&D.
Any class can use any weapon.

So do you think my Ranger can have & use a guitar? I’m ok with this - could be cool for implementing a music system downstream.

Though seems like this would take a bit from bards.

Dygz

CROW3 wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Bard instruments should be weapons - similar to D&D.
Any class can use any weapon.

So do you think my Ranger can have & use a guitar? I’m ok with this - could be cool for implementing a music system downstream.

Though seems like this would take a bit from bards.

Yes. I think your Ranger will be able to use a Guitar. Just as my Cleric in Alpha One used a Wand.
You would still be using Ranger Active Skills . Andwould be pretty cool if you're a Bowsinger (even better if you're wielding a Violin).

T Elf

Instead of swinging the actual instrument/book at mob, I see it more like flinging NOTES or WORDS (don't forget Vicious Mockery) at mob to do damage.

Perhaps there could be racially different instruments as well; books can always be different.

Dygz

I certainly hope weapons have racial designs.

But, yes, something like Whistle could be a Bard Active Skill and racial augments could change the appearance of that Active Skill.
There's potential for all of that in the design, I think.

Woolfe

Think it would be cool over all if there was a music sheet crafting profession sort of like how in arkage you could craft music sheets then play the music from them. And you could craft those in a similar manner by taking real world notes and converting them for use in the game and create music based off real world music

Sapiverenus

I'd like Bard to play more like a Rhythm game.
Because having 64 classes that boil down to the same type of gameplay is extremely limited in appeal.
If you want the game to play a certain way you can just choose a certain Archetype and then Sub-archetype.

Trying to balance 64 shades of grey is just not EASY, it's not FUN to create, and it does not have broad appeal [$$$], [Social], [Engagement], [Motivation].

Big picture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3Vvr3UdFM8

If Bard was like a Shaman warning of and warding off evil. . . . that would be amazing.

Giving songs to Bards to play. sounds great.

But I would like it if it were taken a step further and the song choice is IN TUNE WITH ITS SURROUNDINGS and like an ORACLE; depending on broad AI attractors/repellers, regional AI modifiers, biome and of course what is going on such as combat vs [player or NPC] or simply being near friendlies, alone, near corrupted, or near party members. Some nuance such as whether one is playing in an echo chamber (cave) or busy loud location (city) of course should be considered.

Such AI modification map should be a layer on the map already. It's the easiest way to handle Migration Behavior.

If Bard was like a Shaman warning of and warding off evil. . . . that would be amazing. x2

If the area is attracting big threats: Looming darkness, threat on the horizon type music === Tense, Looming, heavy music.

Big threats are leaving the area, small ones entering === Upbeat but a bit aggressive and terse.

both big threats and small ones leaving the area === upbeat and joyful. probably celebratorial.

both big threats and small ones entering the area === Heavy, aggressive, erratic, thunder and lightning, oppressive, dark. Mega Death and Somber.

For the most part you can simply match a song to situation [for conceptual mapping/ fitting] then program around it. Then fill in the missing pieces.

A simple long. . . sustained and pained note on a violin. . . works just fine for conveying a bad atmosphere and alerting the party that threats are entering the larger 'area' though.

Hence. . .

Not every instrument should be able to "Take Lead"
and Play a Song that is based on the Context.
They can play something mostly non-disruptive though. So they could add background notes, 'diddies', moreso than Bard-it-Out.
But then Elaborate songs are available for specific instruments (as Lead) where other Bards can jump in (as accompaniment once lead begins the elaborate song) then that could lead into a Phase AFTER that song where one tries to do something about the situation such as Repel Enemies, Buff Allies, Call Rain (drought?), Attract Animals (lack of game?), [War Drums to Prepare for War anyone?], et cetera with LEAD INSTRUMENT decided by BIOME and SITUATION such as Drums to Prepare for War of course.

A different song for every situation.

Of course when bards are influencing things all-over Verra then perhaps creatures may target Bards to kill. . . it's like being pushed around afterall.

And Sirens, negative Song creatures in general along perhaps with positive ones might start POPPIN' UP all over. . . which start influencing the world.

I can imagine 100 Bards partaking in a 30 minute song to ward off a huge 1000 enemy NPC siege about 15 minutes away by lining a huge section of the zone of influence border and playing their hearts out an extremely difficult lengthy piece.
Then there being some indication of the result such as a dark phantom tide rising from the ground and flying off in a direction (away) or (towards the Node) and washing over the Bards [FAILED - but maybe their resolve is weakened?].

I can see a form of Herding resulting from this as well, but songs can't keep Evil bottled lol.

So Bard is. . . Canary in the Coal Mine.Preparer for War. Fate Weaver. Tide Shifter. Something Poetic. Fun on the Drum.

And don't forget the much more valuable and interesting boost to herb and general plant growth when playing sweet melodies. [rhythm gaming still required]

Or I guess scratch the strings and cause enemy to stagger or whatever. . .

Additionally. . .

In the parallel Book Series that followed Bean from "Ender's Game", near the end of the series there's an Alien planet. The creatures there could sing a song and the tree would offer itself and its wood in the shape they needed.

Similar could be done with the Bard as well.

With enough Bards and a difficult and long enough song played, you might draw up more resources from the Earth even.
Playing for an hour to move a ton of Iron to the surface. sounds dope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4iSqv5z73E

I would not mind Guitaroo style. at all.

I'm sure there are unique rhythm game mechanics to rip off lmao just DO IT.

Bard should be controller-only and Freestyle half of any drawn out song to, for example, bring Ore rich rocks to the surface to be mined; taking 30 minutes to an hour.

A game shouldn't take itself so seriously that it starts demanding time and energy from millions of people for months and months without allowing different sorts of 'game' that doesn't impact others in terms of power balance at all.

Joystick shift pitch. . . buttons can do different beats. Click left trigger to start Playing. . . Depending on Instrument movement is on the thumb that's free. Bumper to strum. Whatever works tbf.

You can give a tool to people to play music in the game, live, and impact the game with such a tool; or have a Bard class that doesn't allow you to play an instrument in a real way because. . . .?????????????????????
because.. . . . ??????????????

A passion project can permit others to express passion. . . for a passionate game with hundreds of thousands playing. . . or everyone with any kind of passion can go somewhere else.

SongRune

Sapiverenus wrote: »

If Bard was like a Shaman warning of and warding off evil. . . . that would be amazing.

Let Bards be Bards. We're here to shape the tone and experience of an area, not to mimic it or draw it out. If this was about "not wanting what you hear to clash", I'd say sure, let the audio engine sort that out. But it's not. You've made that very clear.

I'm here to inspire, not reinforce the area's gloom. I'm here to move minds and spirits, not "play an ambient track". My job is to resist and transform the environment, not reinforce it. If you want a Shaman class, ask for that. Don't try to get rid of Bard.

Sapiverenus wrote: »

I'd like Bard to play more like a Rhythm game.

This is a mechanical skill that has no little relation to what music is or what bards are, other than being one of many specific skills that contribute to a performance.

You don't build a "Chef" class entirely around "Potato Peeling". You build it around properly selecting and combining ingredients and dishes that work well together to produce the effects you're going for. Anything less is an insult.

Don't make my core gameplay "potato peeling".

Sincerely,
Someone who actually plays Bard.

Sunboy

Sonic type damage?

JustVine

Sap's class is 'necromancer'. If they wanna change my mind they should stop necroing dead threads -_-

Liniker

Dygz wrote: »

Yes. I think your Ranger will be able to use a Guitar. Just as my Cleric in Alpha One used a Wand.
You would still be using Ranger Active Skills . Andwould be pretty cool if you're a Bowsinger (even better if you're wielding a Violin).

that's stupid, any class can use any weapon - music instruments are not weapons, summoners have 3 summoned pets, bards have music instruments, they shouldn't be used by other classes.

Sapiverenus

SongRune wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

If Bard was like a Shaman warning of and warding off evil. . . . that would be amazing.

Let Bards be Bards. We're here to shape the tone and experience of an area, not to mimic it or draw it out. If this was about "not wanting what you hear to clash", I'd say sure, let the audio engine sort that out. But it's not. You've made that very clear.

I'm here to inspire, not reinforce the area's gloom. I'm here to move minds and spirits, not "play an ambient track". My job is to resist and transform the environment, not reinforce it. If you want a Shaman class, ask for that. Don't try to get rid of Bard.

Sapiverenus wrote: »

I'd like Bard to play more like a Rhythm game.

This is a mechanical skill that has no little relation to what music is or what bards are, other than being one of many specific skills that contribute to a performance.

You don't build a "Chef" class entirely around "Potato Peeling". You build it around properly selecting and combining ingredients and dishes that work well together to produce the effects you're going for. Anything less is an insult.

Don't make my core gameplay "potato peeling".

Sincerely,
Someone who actually plays Bard.

You clearly want to be the center of attention at all times if you can't stand to be relegated to a supporting role in the ambience of a game.
Many players want the kind of experience I describe and being inflexible is not helping you or anyone.

Don't start talking about what music is ffs.... why do people start talking about mechanics only when it's to argue vain BS.
And you're insulting every rhythm game player as best you can lmao just stop.

Sapiverenus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGrTF0DqVqc

Here's one of those frothing brain damaged potato peelers you don't want to play the game.

There's no satisfying drum sound even and he (amongst others) play the game for the rhythm aspect alone.

In the guitaroo game video I link in the post you reply to, the game mechanic is tied to the song. You turn the joystick up when going up in pitch and down when going down in pitch. It's stylized but fits the feel of the song. There is also timed button presses as with plucking/ strumming.

Potato peeler. . .

Bards have access to multiple instruments 'SongRune' it isn't an arbitrary constraint

Sapiverenus

Freestyle section after the song would be good probably.

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