DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

Sapiverenus

@Aerlana

You have my name and Mag's mixed up

@Xeeg
You don't need to update precise health to the client; you can just update the UI to change a certain amount, whether that's entirely accurate or not.

Time to kill (or abilities to kill) could be the only reliable metric and even then there's always variability of damage and possibly health & resistances between identical mobs.

Maybe a mob has crazy regen. It doesn't show it but at some point you may notice one's health tic up rather than down after half an hour of fighting these mobs. Then you know they heal or regen; but most healing show an animation. Thus it must be regen.

Some creatures may not show their health at all because they're literally made of stone and show no damage until they die.

All in all I don't think Intrepid or most studios can handle the burden of problem solving and creative design lmao. Too much nuance involved.

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

https://youtu.be/B3Vvr3UdFM8

Noaani wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

"name one entertainment. . ."
Working out

That isn't entertainment.

Sure, it is a thing you can enjoy, but I thoroughly enjoy my job. However, my job is not entertainment.

To you.

It's tedious and obnoxious how you try and recreate reality from your head, without understanding the in-between heads.

Some people are entertained by working out and you can turn red in the face and cry yourself to sleep thinking about it.

Working out, breakdancing, acrobatics, dancing, fighting, martial arts, training even. ffs

Anything can be entertaining. Hiking and looking at plant/ animal life can be the most entertaining thing in the world for someone. Not everyone is YOU.

And everything I mentioned just now is less of a time waster than MMOs.

Leave your echo chamber.

We are talking about entertainment activities, not entertaining.

This may seem the same thing to you, but it is not.

An entertainment activity is one which is primarily engaged with for entertainment. As such, activities such as working out dont fit, because the main reason most people have for engaging in them is fitness.

That doesnt mean YOU dont participate in said activity for enjoyment. In all honestly a single persons perspective is irrelevant here, as we are talking about activities, and as such we are talking about all peoples reason for engaging in said activity.

By the very nature of the word entertainment activities need to be perused for enjoyment. If an activity is persued primarily (by the collective of all people engaging in said activity) for any other reason, the activity is simply not entertainment.

It would seem, perhaps, that you assumed we were talking about things from an individual's perspective, rather than from the perspective of the activity. If we are going to look at classifying activities, you cant look at it from a personal perspective.

If there are cars in the MMO then go ahead and have racing. WHO GIVES A SHIT.

I thinknyouve lost sight of the context of comments at this point, and are just replying to snippets of posts in a somewhat angry demeanor.

I never said an MMO cant have races. In fact,both of the MMO's I have played the most had races in them.

That doesnt mean they are racing games - which is what I said. We use genres in discussion as it allows people to quickly understand. This is why genres exist - not just in games but in everything.

Again, we talk about MMO's in the context of MMO's so that people who have played MMO's understand easier.

As to you seeming to be pissed off at me for wanting ashes to be like some existing MMO's- that isnt a *me* thing, it is an Intrepid thing. They want Ashes to be reminiscent of older MMO's - hell they were even wearing "Make MMO's Great Again" hats in the early live streams.

I'm here because I want to play what Intepid want Ashes to be.

I am.unsure why you are here, as you clearly do not want to play whatIntrepid want Ashes to be.

I didn't want Trackers in the game so clearly I don't want the same function Trackers provide in the game ffs. I gave my reasons for it and took into consideration the broader playerbase (and potential playerbase) for why I do not want Trackers in the game.

You did no such thing.

In fact, you still haven't got your head around everything a tracker can and can not do, and what players like me are able to do with them.

You also have not even bothered going over my main point that is "as it stands, we have trackers I the game that are unlimited in function, my suggestion places limits on them, including not being able to use them on someone not in your guild".

In arguing AGAINST my point here, you are arguing FOR unlimited combat trackers, because I am arguing AGAINST unlimited trackers, and offering up the only solution that will ser that happen.

Your token 'rhythm' class from some game is hardly relevant.
Just name the class and game so I can tear your token argument apart.

No.

If you want to get in to a discussion as to what MMO's should and should not do, you should first of all educate yourself on what they have and have not done, what did and did not work, and the reasoning behind all of that.

All you are doing now is ranting about something you have no knowledge of, everyone reading can see it. I have no incentive at all to assist you.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Guild tracker idea is stupid, it just paves the way for people to use third party trackers. It is simple manipulation and that is why he brought it up. Then he will simply say it cant be TOS to use third party trackers since they are already in game.

If making a third party tracker that worked on others were trivial, I would agree with you that there would be no reason at all to make a first party tracker. Indeed, I would never have even suggested it.

Now, to be clear, making a tracker that only tracks the user is trivial - even without the game having a log file.

Getting that individual user tracker and setting it up on a server, asking each member of a group or raid to log in to said server, that is also fairly easy.

This is the base level of what will happen in Ashes in the absolute worst case scenario. This may well see people not invited to guilds (and potentially even groups) without being willing to log in to that tracker server. As long as that discussion happens on Discord and not in the game, there is nothing any developer can do about it (not even with an FFXIV style "trackers are like Fight Club" rule).

However, when I talk about how Ashes will have trackers, the above is not what I am talking about. I am talking about a small number of people that both able and are in a position to be able to make a tracker that works on your guild or raid in Ashes. They will make these trackers because - like me - they KNOW that a game is better off if players have access to trackers. To be perfectly clear, there are only about a dozen or so people in the world that fit the above criteria - I am trying to be as vague as I can here, but I have talked about exactly this with a few posters on these forums, they know what I am talking about.

If a first party tracker is added to the game, that reason they have for making a tracker simply goes away. The game will be better for having a tracker, but the game has a tracker, so there is no need to develop a third party tracker.

So, if those dozen or so people from above are convinced that Ashes doesn't need a third party tracker because the game has a suitable first party tracker, then third party trackers that can track others are not likely to ever actually exist for Ashes.

Those trackers that can only track the user will still exist (people can patch one together in about half an hour). However, I doubt people would then set up servers to run them, as there wouldn't be much point, and the work/cost involved wouldn't be worth it if an in game tracker were available.

Additionally, as I have said earlier, it is within the scope of a piece of softwares ToS to say that any function of that software can not be reproduced outside of that software. This could be taken to mean that you can't use a third party combat tracker if the game ships with a combat tracker.

If the game had a tracker, and included language like this in the ToS, I can tell you now that I wouldn't want to be the one to test out that could to see if it was legally sound. I would simply not run a third party tracker in that game - assuming the first party tracker had all necessary functionality (if it didn't running a third party tracker to provide said functionality wouldn't be against the ToS, as you are not reproducing a function, you are performing a new function).

Edit, as to this comment

Don't trust a word Noaani says look at his god damn profile picture.

It is as it is because a while back, some regular posters were commenting about how they were somewhat annoyed that I had not changed my forum name to have a capital first letter (those that have been around here long enough will know), and then when I changed it, they then commented that I should also change from the default picture.

So I did. It was right around the time this thread was created/merged, and so I used the icon of my preferred third party tracker. If you want to look in to it any more than that, you are welcome to do so. I've had people suggest that I much be the "owner" of ACT or something in order to use their icon here (nope, copy/paste works great), and so I must just be posting here to try and get more people to use ACT so that I somehow make more money.

I assume you are smart enough to realize that 1, ACT is free, so even if I were the "owner" of it, there is no money to be made and 2, if I were the owner of it and were trying to make money from more users, Ashes not having a first party tracker would see more people look for a third party one. As such, I am actually arguing for there to be fewer people in Ashes using ACT.

But as I said, surely you are smart enough to realize that.

Sapiverenus

@Noaani
I'm literally not reading past your first 2 lines.

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

You're getting every bit of engagement from me while I get vain shows of it from others.

Sapiverenus wrote: »

@Noaani
I'm literally not reading past your first 2 lines.

You are getting what you deserve, to be honest.

The first interaction you and I had on these forums was in relation to your idea on inspect rather than a tracker. I was overly polite (out of character for me) in pointing out to you that your suggestion may be a valid thing to add to the game, but it isn't a replacement for trackers as you claimed.

You then argued that point with me. Later on, we learned that you didn't even know what a tracker is actually even used for - yet you had argued with me in relation to your suggestion.

Then we have the whole debacle of your post formatting. Not just the OP of that other thread, but your insistence to use spoiler tags for quotes which is a needless hassle to anyone that may be reading while doing some other task.

You don't deserve to have people engage with you at this point. You can earn back that right, and people will begin to engage with properly you once again, but in order for that to happen you kind of need to realize that you are the one here that doesn't know what they are talking about in relation to MMO's, and if someone that does know what they are talking about corrects you, you need to simply accept that correction (don't worry, if the person that corrected you was wrong, someone will correct them).

An example of this would be the above suggestion you had in relation to inspect. You had a suggestion for an alternative to combat trackers, someone that has been using a combat tracker for more than two decades informs you that your suggestion will not replace combat trackers. The appropriate thing for you to do is to accept that, and then either drop your idea and discussion on it, or attempt to modify your idea so that it covers the shortfalls it had.

I mean, the suggestion of a guild based tracker wasn't just my idea. I agreed with someone else early on in this thread that said a built in tracker would be a good idea, and then as people pointed out issues with it, I came up with ways around that system. People said they didn't want anyone to track them, I said cool, the tracker should be opt in. People said group leaders will require people to opt in to be bought along on content, I said cool, make it opt in at the guild level (you should be joining a guild with like minded players - if you do not want to use a combat tracker, you should not be in a guild with people that do, and vice versa).

Sapiverenus

@Noaani
Now on Ignore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3NRReGog9c

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani
Now on Ignore

I never understood people that proclaim to others that they are now on ignore.

All you ignoring me means is that I can point out the flaws in your statements without needing to get in to a worthless debate with you.

And keep in mind, the bulk of my posts are for the benefit of other readers. If someone says something untrue, I will post a rebuttal for others that are reading - not for the person that posted something untrue. Generally speaking, if someone is ready to proclaim untruths as being fact, I am not going to be able to persuade them otherwise - but I may be able to prevent someone else from assume that untruth is true.

Xeeg

Noaani wrote: »

Now, to be clear, making a tracker that only tracks the user is trivial - even without the game having a log file.

Doesn't that depend on client/server information exchange? If the client only tells the server that the players did X attack at Y location, and the server does all the calculations, the client never has to know exactly how much damage was applied.

The server could just send back something to indicate that u hit them, and a status "unwounded, slightly wounded, heavily wounded, critically wounded" of the enemy.

Azherae

Xeeg wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Now, to be clear, making a tracker that only tracks the user is trivial - even without the game having a log file.

Doesn't that depend on client/server information exchange? If the client only tells the server that the players did X attack at Y location, and the server does all the calculations, the client never has to know exactly how much damage was applied.

The server could just send back something to indicate that u hit them, and a status "unwounded, slightly wounded, heavily wounded, critically wounded" of the enemy.

I'd be both 'okay with this' and sort of 'surprised that is what anyone wanted'.

Specific damage done doesn't matter to me when I'm using parsers, but similarly having to just 'trust that you're doing more damage now after X change' as a generality is kind of weird.

Plus, it would just make people use 'PvP' for the tests.

BDO already does this (if you aren't familiar with how to get a specific additional set of data), but I feel like that led to more harm than good since games almost always apply some sort of scaling or 'hidden aspects' of a formula somewhere.

If Ashes has simplistic damage formulas, that'd surprise me, but I guess it wouldn't be too weird.

Noaani

Xeeg wrote: »

Doesn't that depend on client/server information exchange?

Not specifically.

A log file is a text file the game creates that has, well, a log of everything. This is where trackers like ACT get their data from. It is why they are able to function without needing to interact with the game client at all - the client produces a file for ACT, and ACT only interacts with that file.

Ashes will not have a log file, but we do know it will have a combat log. As such, in order to get a text file for ACT to read, all you need to do is turn that combat log in to a text file, and point ACT at it.

All we really need the game to provide in order to be able to do this easily is floating combat feedback, which again is something we know we will have.

Developers of Western MMO's aren't usually keen on keeping players in the dark as to what is happening - this includes Intrepid. We can expect a reasonable amount of information to be sent to the client.

Strevi

@Xeeg
Have you used trackers before?
Steven's intention is to reduce, not to make completely impossible the use of trackers
See https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Addons

to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers

and on the same page

The goal is to mitigate and make the practice less prevalent

You may find ways to achieve more but for practical reasons that is not the intention the developers have.

Mag7spy

Strevi wrote: »

@Xeeg
Have you used trackers before?
Steven's intention is to reduce, not to make completely impossible the use of trackers
See https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Addons

to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers

and on the same page

The goal is to mitigate and make the practice less prevalent

You may find ways to achieve more but for practical reasons that is not the intention the developers have.

You are missing the point, that is clearly in reference that its impossible to stop people doing everything but make it so it isn't a normal thing as it is not desired to be.

You need to simply go by what is the meaning of what they want not with how you can try to change the meaning. "They are not allowed"

Strevi

Mag7spy wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

@Xeeg
Have you used trackers before?
Steven's intention is to reduce, not to make completely impossible the use of trackers
See https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Addons

to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers

and on the same page

The goal is to mitigate and make the practice less prevalent

You may find ways to achieve more but for practical reasons that is not the intention the developers have.

You are missing the point, that is clearly in reference that its impossible to stop people doing everything but make it so it isn't a normal thing as it is not desired to be.

You need to simply go by what is the meaning of what they want not with how you can try to change the meaning. "They are not allowed"

Of course we know they are not allowed.
But it also indicates that they are aware that they cannot prevent 100% of them just like they cannot prevent bots or gold sellers on 3rd party sites.
I understand that for now they want to make the life of those who use trackers difficult.

And players to convince eachother to stop using them because that is what Steven wants. That is the purpose of the thread.

Mag7spy

Dont think you can convince people wanting to use trackers for a advantage to not use it. Only thing that will convince will be enforcement action from the devs. So if given proof and they act on it and make it clear less people will be willing to mess around. Even more so if combat is not designed around trackers and not effective for trackers to really be used.

It will make the risk not worth it and not talked about much or used.

They can't be lax on it or things grow in time its better to make your statements clear and for others to see it. If it isn't clear then you get people like ones in new world creating a tracker for resources and knowing when they spawn exactly on the servers and where as well. People will always get out of hand to get an advantage over other players with tools out of game.

Strevi

Mag7spy wrote: »

Dont think you can convince people wanting to use trackers for a advantage to not use it. Only thing that will convince will be enforcement action from the devs. So if given proof and they act on it and make it clear less people will be willing to mess around. Even more so if combat is not designed around trackers and not effective for trackers to really be used.

It will make the risk not worth it and not talked about much or used.

They can't be lax on it or things grow in time its better to make your statements clear and for others to see it. If it isn't clear then you get people like ones in new world creating a tracker for resources and knowing when they spawn exactly on the servers and where as well. People will always get out of hand to get an advantage over other players with tools out of game.

You cannot convince 100% of people but trying to do that is what Steven wants.

You described in-game enforcement, by making the combat designed to not be effective. That might be the other way, more practical than not giving combat loggs at all and limiting data from server to client as @Xeeg seems to suggest.
I cannot say much about it as I have no idea how modern trackers work. Is it related to tab targeting vs action combat?

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are missing the point

I'll be honest, I think you are the one missing the point.

My entire argument as to guild based trackers is how Intrepid can achieve their stated goal.

If you read that quote from Steven, their idea is to give players the tools in game that they need in order to be convinced to not use a third party tracker. Steven knows full well that they can't just say "don't use trackers" and expect people to not use them - the only way to achieve the goal of no third party trackers is to supply suitable first party tools.

My suggestion (guild based tracker, option on the guild level, only works within the guild, only gives data at the end of fighting) is the minimum viable product to achieve Steven's stated goal.

Realistically, the only major difference between my suggestion and Stevens (personal log that can be filter and analyze) is that mine works with your whole guild, but only with your guild.

The ability to look at this information on the guild level rather than the individual level is absolutely key.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are missing the point

I'll be honest, I think you are the one missing the point.

My entire argument as to guild based trackers is how Intrepid can achieve their stated goal.

If you read that quote from Steven, their idea is to give players the tools in game that they need in order to be convinced to not use a third party tracker. Steven knows full well that they can't just say "don't use trackers" and expect people to not use them - the only way to achieve the goal of no third party trackers is to supply suitable first party tools.

My suggestion (guild based tracker, option on the guild level, only works within the guild, only gives data at the end of fighting) is the minimum viable product to achieve Steven's stated goal.

Realistically, the only major difference between my suggestion and Stevens (personal log that can be filter and analyze) is that mine works with your whole guild, but only with your guild.

The ability to look at this information on the guild level rather than the individual level is absolutely key.

Again you aren't worth trusting. You simply want trackers in game and it will validate any other 3rd party tracker so people can argue it is fine to use third party ones and aren't against ToS. The moment it is link to game files only means more information can be taken so all details can be known instantly.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again you aren't worth trusting. You simply want trackers in game and it will validate any other 3rd party tracker so people can argue it is fine to use third party ones and aren't against ToS. The moment it is link to game files only means more information can be taken so all details can be known instantly.

No, that is just an argument you fabricated yourself since you can't seem to grasp the idea that someone could argue for what they think is best for the game rather than best for that individual player.

You thinking I must have some form of ulterior motivation for my argument says nothing at all about me, but a lot about you.

Even if we were to argue for a third party combat tracker, my argument would be for Intrepid to support ACT (obviously).

ACT doesn't link in to game files. The game creates a *.txt file (note; this is not a game file), and that file is the only thing the combat tracker interacts with.

Your entire point here is just something you have made up - and you know full well it is.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again you aren't worth trusting. You simply want trackers in game and it will validate any other 3rd party tracker so people can argue it is fine to use third party ones and aren't against ToS. The moment it is link to game files only means more information can be taken so all details can be known instantly.

No, that is just an argument you fabricated yourself since you can't seem to grasp the idea that someone could argue for what they think is best for the game rather than best for that individual player.

You thinking I must have some form of ulterior motivation for my argument says nothing at all about me, but a lot about you.

Even if we were to argue for a third party combat tracker, my argument would be for Intrepid to support ACT (obviously).

ACT doesn't link in to game files. The game creates a *.txt file (note; this is not a game file), and that file is the only thing the combat tracker interacts with.

Your entire point here is just something you have made up - and you know full well it is.

Lmao hardly made up it is pretty clear if you support trackers, it creates a pathway for all trackers and not being able to actually be hard against them in the TOS. I have 0 reason to trust you, you haven't earned that trust and really has only ever shown disrespect, something you have admitted with your own words already, with having no issue giving it.

So yes you have ulterior motives, look at your profile picture, and no i dont trust what you are saying.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

I have 0 reason to trust you, you haven't earned that trust and really has only ever shown disrespect, something you have admitted with your own words already, with having no issue giving it.

I always start out showing people a basic level of respect, but naturally, that lowers if they should prove to not be worth that respect.

An example of this would be NiKr. We disagree often, but they have proven to be someone deserving of some respect - and so they get it. In fact, I have disagreed with almost every regular poster on these forums, however there are many that I continue to show respect to, as they have shown they deserve it.

On the other hand, just recently Sapiverenus is an example of someone I initially showed a base level of respect for, but who very quickly proved to not be worth showing that base level of respect to.

I started out with a base level of respect shown to you. If you now feel that you are not getting any respect from me, then look no further than your own actions for the reason as to why.

As to trusting what I am saying, I don't care if you do or not, honestly. Feel free to fact check anything I am saying.

In fact, I actively encourage people to not take my word - but to go out and find the best sources for information that they are able to find. I mean, anyone that says something that amounts to "trust me bro" is probably not someone you should just blindly trust.

Look in to how ACT works and see if it "links in to the game files" or not. When you come to realize that it doesn't, you still don't need to trust me, but you have to realize that your point in relation to a tracker doing that needs to be abandoned.

Honestly, that is why you aren't getting any respect back though. Should the person do a good job of this basic level of research, then they would naturally come to agree with me at least on points of fact, even if they come to a different conclusion to me from those facts.

If you are too lazy to do your own research, you shouldn't argue with those that have. If you want to argue, do that research.

Edit; to bring this back to your above post, your idea that I am just trying to get first party trackers in the game so as to make third party trackers more accepted simply isn't supported by any facts. If you looked in to a few things just a little bit, you would understand this. I mean, it's not like you are stupid, you just have an over active imagination and seem to either not understand truth from imagination, or are just making a false argument that you know is a false argument (my assumption is the second of these).

Either way, once you research a few facts yourself and see how far from reality you are, neither of the above would continue - you can only really maintain that argument if you remain oblivious to those few facts.

Child Item