DPS Meter Megathread

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Mag7spy

Your takes are so bad you don't realize it. Throughout that whole post is pretty much agree with me or don't say anything since you are so far up your ass. Trackers are a tool meant to make the game easier the fact you are arguing for tools in the game and therefore gameplay to be built around it is actually extremely backwards. Then the toxic elements that come with it as well and peoples perception of things changing.

Just like EQ trackers out out of date and need to be moved beyond that. The only thing that should matter is your build and a large dose of skill to execute your plans and action person to person, as well as linked to the groups skill of doing the content. The thought of trackers would be meaningless before finding people geared and skilled enough to do the content.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Throughout that whole post is pretty much agree with me or don't say anything since you are so far up your ass.

No, I literally said look up facts yourself or don't argue. If you look up information yourself and come to a different conclusion to me, then that is worth some discussion.

While trackers may indeed be a tool meant to make the game easier (this is debatable, but I'll go with it for now), all that means is that developers can then make the content even harder. I mean, they can make content so hard that players can't defeat it, so if trackers make content easier, that means developers can just make content harder - kind of rendering this point totally moot.

The only way the argument "trackers make content easier" is valid is if you also state "developers are unable to make content harder".

The only thing that should matter is your build and a large dose of skill to execute your plans and action person to person, as well as linked to the groups skill of doing the content.

I mean, I agree with you here - assuming you add gear to this list (you have it further on, so I assume it was an oversight in this sentence).

The thing is, a combat tracker is used to assist in literally all of these things.

If you and your guild want to create builds without trackers, develop a plan without knowledge gained from a tracker, and determine how well you are working together as a group or raid without a tracker, that's great. You'll get stomped on by any guild that does the same using trackers, but still, more power to you.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Throughout that whole post is pretty much agree with me or don't say anything since you are so far up your ass.

No, I literally said look up facts yourself or don't argue. If you look up information yourself and come to a different conclusion to me, then that is worth some discussion.

While trackers may indeed be a tool meant to make the game easier (this is debatable, but I'll go with it for now), all that means is that developers can then make the content even harder. I mean, they can make content so hard that players can't defeat it, so if trackers make content easier, that means developers can just make content harder - kind of rendering this point totally moot.

The only way the argument "trackers make content easier" is valid is if you also state "developers are unable to make content harder".

The only thing that should matter is your build and a large dose of skill to execute your plans and action person to person, as well as linked to the groups skill of doing the content.

I mean, I agree with you here - assuming you add gear to this list (you have it further on, so I assume it was an oversight in this sentence).

The thing is, a combat tracker is used to assist in literally all of these things.

If you and your guild want to create builds without trackers, develop a plan without knowledge gained from a tracker, and determine how well you are working together as a group or raid without a tracker, that's great. You'll get stomped on by any guild that does the same using trackers, but still, more power to you.

If you are gaining knowledge in only a tracker you are effective asking help from a tool because you aren't good enough at the game.

What I'm talking about is gameplay that makes trackers pointless. A guild using a tracker would mean nothing. Tracker damage is pointless its about the actions of people working together and "skill" to beat hard types of combat that most people wouldn't be able to handle well.

Akin to having a tracker in a fighting game, and you fight someone skilled and they just dump on you and laugh at you thinking a tracker is going to make you a better player.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you are gaining knowledge in only a tracker you are effective asking help from a tool because you aren't good enough at the game.

Who said a tracker is the only place you are gaining knowledge?

A tracker is one of many tools. Experience is another tool.

What I'm talking about is gameplay that makes trackers pointless

Ashes will not have this.

I'm not saying such combat is impossible - just that it won't be in this game.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you are gaining knowledge in only a tracker you are effective asking help from a tool because you aren't good enough at the game.

Who said a tracker is the only place you are gaining knowledge?

A tracker is one of many tools. Experience is another tool.

What I'm talking about is gameplay that makes trackers pointless

Ashes will not have this.

I'm not saying such combat is impossible - just that it won't be in this game.

You have no idea what their raid content will be like nor combat you are not a judge of this.

Bluntly you are wrong and talking out of your ass until hey show more combat as well as raid content. There are tons of possibilities until it is clear what exactly the combat will be like.

This is why i don't trust you, you dont have a open mind you only say what you want in a game which is akin to EQ gameplay which no one wants.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

You have no idea what their raid content will be like nor combat you are not a judge of this.

Rather than saying Ashes won't have combat that has no need for a combat tracker, Intrepid have basically added an individual tracker to the game.

If Intrepid had intentions of adding the combat type you are talking about, they wouldn't be adding that individual tracker to the game.

I mean, what does it say about Intrepid if they add in that individual tracker to the game, but have a combat system that doesn't use it?

This isn't about having an open or closed mind, it is about looking at what we know about the game.

Mag7spy

Sounds like what we know about the game already.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

That isn't saying anything about the game though, it is talking about policy.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

That isn't saying anything about the game though, it is talking about policy.

You can read. What does it say about DPS meters.

Ace1234

I haven't given it much thought to have a preference but it sounds like the argument is about convenience vs the requirement of player analysis. I of course fall under supporting the requirement of players to figure things out rather than being handed the solutions for convenience. However, I don't neccessarily understand how removing a tool that tracks your dps would be adding any kind of skill-based analysis to the mix- I will give my reasoning for that below.

With a dps meter you would still have to figure the mechanics out to get the best possible dps, all the meter does is tell you the result of your build decisions.

Basic feedback does not reduce the amount of skill required- it actually enhances it by giving you a means of measuring how beneficial those build decisions were.

You can say that it makes it just a matter of trial and error- but thats literally the same as the alternative of beating on enemies with different builds in order to see what yields the best result, except that the latter doesn't require any extra skill, its just a more tedious way of measuring your efficiency.

So, really the root of the matter at hand is actually whether the customization system is so basic that actually having feedback to understand whether you are making good build decisions are not, will trivialize the content, vs. actually having a enough depth in the system that simple trial and error is a less effective approach than actually trying to theory-craft a good build.

If you have to make the player not know how effective they are in order to artifically "increase the depth" (through denying basic info, causing RNG decision-making), then there is a much more important problem that needs addressed.

Mag7spy

Ace1234 wrote: »

I havn't given it much thought to have a preference but it sounds like the argument is about convenience vs the requirement of player analysis. I of course fall under supporting the requirement of players to figure things out rather than being handed the solutions for convenience. However, I don't neccessarily understand how removing a tool that tracks your dps would be adding any kind of skill-based analysis to the mix- I will give my reasoning for that below.

With a dps meter you would still have to figure the mechanics out to get the best possible dps, all the meter does is tell you the result of your build decisions.

Basic feedback does not reduce the amount of skill required- it actually enhances it by giving you a means of measuring how beneficial those build decisions were.

You can say that it makes it just a matter of trial and error- but thats literally the same as the alternative of beating on enemies with different builds in order to see what yields the best result, except that the latter doesn't require any extra skill, its just a more tedious way of measuring your efficiency.

So, really the root of the matter at hand is actually whether the customization system is so basic that actually having feedback to understand whether you are making good build decisions are not, will trivialize the content, vs. actually having a enough depth in the system that simple trial and error is a less effective approach than actually trying to theory-craft a good build.

If you have to make the player not know how effective they are in order to artifically "increase the depth" (through denying basic info, causing RNG decision-making), then there is more important problem that needs addressed.

You are getting some things mixed up. One of them has already pointed out "depth" for them is not just having a raid leader seeing things and calling things out, but having someone using a tracker to figure things out as well.

By default it means the depth is wanted by these handful to be seen as well through a tracker. Which is not visual to players normally running the content.

Like i said before skill relation in terms of complexity based on the level will have people care less about a tracker and care more about the small amount of people that can use their skill as far as action combat is involved to keep up with fights. Yes you have your skill rotations but you have your dodges, your active blocks, utility effects, your actual aim and accuracy on landing skills, etc.

If devs wanted they could make content on that level of difficulty with their game and trackers would be pointless, you would be looking for people that are skilled enough to do the content. Not looking for people fulfilling dps mters/ trackers etc. As there would be so much going on to begin with. Someone's roll might not even be to do dmg to begin based on how hard raid content is designed and peoples plans to tackle it.

Basic feedback does not reduce the amount of skill required- it actually enhances it by giving you a means of measuring how beneficial those build decisions were.

You can measure without dps meters its not hard, if you need a DPS meter for raid content when it is not designed around it there is something wrong. This mentality would be simply for lower end content so people can question someone isn't doing enough dps maybe we should kick them. Look at the person as a number over being a actual person.

Difficulty needs to be around skill not number crunching or puzzles(ie figuring out boss mechanics and how to overcome it). You can test your damage numbers at any point easily.

Ace1234

@Mag7spy
Ok I understand your point-
I actually was going to touch on the combat aspect but I thought the debate was only about the dps aspect itself. I guess there are a lot of people that don't understand basic stuff like the fact that your actual effectiveness in battle requires more than just your numerical dps values when there is a skill-based combat system.

That said if people are going to make wrong judgements about players effectiveness, they will do that redardless. Having a meter/tracker would be beneficial from both skill and convenience perspectives. Dps is relevant to an extent, as long as you incorporate the combat skill aspect- so I don't neccesarily think the players that actually know what they are doing should be punished with less convenience, due to the social pressure of mis-prioritizing how important raw dps is.

Really the 2 potential issues are
1. people being clueless and puting too much emphasis on dps
2. The lack of depth causing the basic feedback of a meter to trivialize the content

So, I think the social aspects should be left to work themselves out- let the players that emphasize dps too much, suck at the harder content compared to those who actually know how to recruit good players. If they really wanted to reward effectiveness for everything, maybe they could also have a combat efficiency meter/damage mitigation meter/support meter/etc. To reward good build decision-making for all styles of play.

From there I think the depth aspect is looking pretty solid so far, that a meter/tracker would enhance it further instead of rewarding the bad-theory crafting of builds.

Mag7spy

Ace1234 wrote: »

@Mag7spy
Ok I understand your point-
I actually was going to touch on the combat aspect but I thought the debate was only about the dps aspect itself. I guess there are a lot of people that don't understand basic stuff like the fact that your actual effectiveness in battle requires more than just your numerical dps values when there is a skill-based combat system.

That said if people are going to make wrong judgements about players effectiveness, they will do that redardless. Having a meter/tracker would be beneficial from both skill and convenience perspectives. Dps is relevant to an extent, as long as you incorporate the combat skill aspect- so I don't neccesarily think the players that actually know what they are doing should be punished with less convenience, due to the social pressure of mis-prioritizing how important raw dps is.

Really the 2 potential issues are
1. people being clueless and puting too much emphasis on dps
2. The lack of depth causing the basic feedback of a meter to trivialize the content

So, I think the social aspects should be left to work themselves out- let the players that emphasize dps too much suck at the harder content compared to those who actually know how to recruit good players. From there I think the depth aspect is looking pretty solid so far, that a meter/tracker would enhance it further instead of rewarding the bad-theory crafting of builds.

You don't need a meter to know if your dps is improving or not, this is stuff you can easily test out and put some work into. Or just know by seeing if you are doing more damage and clearly killing mobs faster. You should be able to also tell if someone doesn't have the best build as you do content with them than having to rely on a meter to tell you what exactly (if their build is that bad).

If the game is not designed for trackers and dps meters it is not needed in the game. Based on how combat is designed and plays with types of content. It can vary the use of a DPS meter, if they are going to do really hard content they should do it in a way where people don't feel a need or care of a DPs meter. And using the in game combat log to test their damage.

There shouldn't be a point where someone boots up a tracker and can start reading all in game files and know exactly what to do to counter some form of content. In a way that you can only know from a tracker and not from actually playing the game. Like the few arguing for trackers here want which is pretty stupid to only know something clearly from looking at tracker information. This isn't a mmorpg from 20 years ago, this is 2022 now.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

That isn't saying anything about the game though, it is talking about policy.

You can read. What does it say about DPS meters.

We've been over this.

Sure, Intrepid wont "allow" combat trackers, but neither did FFXIV - and look how well that went for them.

My point is - and has always been - if combat in an MMO is more complex than combat in Pacman, players will use a combat tracker. If Ingrepid does not want third party trackers at all, they need an adequate first party tracker. If they do not have an adequate first party tracker, people will use a third party tracker.

In regards to whether people actually use a tracker or not, Intrepid dont have a say. Again, look at FFXIV (or even GW2, they were initially against them as well). The only say Ingrepid have in the matter is if people use a first party tracker or a third party tracker.

Your refusal to discuss this specific point kind of comes across as you closing your eyes, putting your hands over your ears and chanting "if I dont read about how people will use trackers, people wont use trackers" over and over again.

Fact is, people will use trackers and Intrepid will not be able to detect them.

Ace1234

@Mag7spy

There shouldn't be a point where someone boots up a tracker and can start reading all in game files and know exactly what to do to counter some form of content. In a way that you can only know from a tracker and not from actually playing the game. Like the few arguing for trackers here want which is pretty stupid to only know something clearly from looking at tracker information. This isn't a mmorpg from 20 years ago, this is 2022 now.

Well if the tracker can also track enemy dps as well then thats another topic that I haven't been talking about- I dont think that should be allowed, because organically uncovering info from an enemy is part of the strategy so I would agree on that point- I am more referring to more conveniently measuring your own individual/group strategy through calculating and comparing dps of your build. You would still have to theory craft the builds to get the quickest and best result- it should be way less efficient to just cycle through different build combinations until you get the best dps displayed on a meter. The social aspect I already addressed as well.

You don't need a meter to know if your dps is improving or not, this is stuff you can easily test out and put some work into. Or just know by seeing if you are doing more damage and clearly killing mobs faster. You should be able to also tell if someone doesn't have the best build as you do content with them than having to rely on a meter to tell you what exactly (if their build is that bad).

Yea for sure- regardless though- its still a more convenient way of measuring rather than having to test it in a more tedious way- which is purely a bonus unless it detracts from the skill, which I was explaining how it wouldn't neccessaily have to do that as long as there is depth in the system that makes theory crafting more efficient than trial and error.

If the game is not designed for trackers and dps meters it is not needed in the game. Based on how combat is designed and plays with types of content. It can vary the use of a DPS meter, if they are going to do really hard content they should do it in a way where people don't feel a need or care of a DPs meter. And using the in game combat log to test their damage.

As long as their is depth of builds and skill-based combat then it would qualify as being designed for a tracker though from both a theory crafting and social perspective- so if you can have that extra convenience why ommit it once you realize there doesn't have to be a downside, once we address the previous points I made?

I would be satisfied with having a training ground with test dummies to provide you with feedback- I just hate the thought of having to manually calculate the results after I theory-craft a good individual/group strategy.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

That isn't saying anything about the game though, it is talking about policy.

You can read. What does it say about DPS meters.

We've been over this.

Sure, Intrepid wont "allow" combat trackers, but neither did FFXIV - and look how well that went for them.

My point is - and has always been - if combat in an MMO is more complex than combat in Pacman, players will use a combat tracker. If Ingrepid does not want third party trackers at all, they need an adequate first party tracker. If they do not have an adequate first party tracker, people will use a third party tracker.

In regards to whether people actually use a tracker or not, Intrepid dont have a say. Again, look at FFXIV (or even GW2, they were initially against them as well). The only say Ingrepid have in the matter is if people use a first party tracker or a third party tracker.

Your refusal to discuss this specific point kind of comes across as you closing your eyes, putting your hands over your ears and chanting "if I dont read about how people will use trackers, people wont use trackers" over and over again.

Fact is, people will use trackers and Intrepid will not be able to detect them.

it is about looking at what we know about the game.

Sounds like you know about the game based on their stand point. No add ons or dps meter..

Im already aware you want to cheat and use trackers, been over this with you already, with a game not being designed for trackers and when people get caught and proof given and clearly banned there wont be much to worry about.

Mag7spy

Ace1234 wrote: »

@Mag7spy

There shouldn't be a point where someone boots up a tracker and can start reading all in game files and know exactly what to do to counter some form of content. In a way that you can only know from a tracker and not from actually playing the game. Like the few arguing for trackers here want which is pretty stupid to only know something clearly from looking at tracker information. This isn't a mmorpg from 20 years ago, this is 2022 now.

Well if the tracker can also track enemy dps as well then thats another topic that I haven't been talking about- I dont think that should be allowed, because organically uncovering info from an enemy is part of the strategy so I would agree on that point- I am more referring to more conveniently measuring your own individual/group strategy through calculating and comparing dps of your build. You would still have to theory craft the builds to get the quickest and best result- it should be way less efficient to just cycle through different build combinations until you get the best dps displayed on a meter. The social aspect I already addressed as well.

You don't need a meter to know if your dps is improving or not, this is stuff you can easily test out and put some work into. Or just know by seeing if you are doing more damage and clearly killing mobs faster. You should be able to also tell if someone doesn't have the best build as you do content with them than having to rely on a meter to tell you what exactly (if their build is that bad).

Yea for sure- regardless though- its still a more convenient way of measuring rather than having to test it in a more tedious way- which is purely a bonus unless it detracts from the skill, which I was explaining how it wouldn't neccessaily have to do that as long as there is depth in the system that makes theory crafting more efficient than trial and error.

If the game is not designed for trackers and dps meters it is not needed in the game. Based on how combat is designed and plays with types of content. It can vary the use of a DPS meter, if they are going to do really hard content they should do it in a way where people don't feel a need or care of a DPs meter. And using the in game combat log to test their damage.

As long as their is depth of builds and skill-based combat then it would qualify as being designed for a tracker though from both a theory crafting and social perspective- so if you can have that extra convenience why ommit it once you realize there doesn't have to be a downside, once we address the previous points I made?

I would be satisfied with having a training ground with test dummies to provide you with feedback- I just hate the thought of having to manually calculate the results after I theory-craft a good individual/group strategy.

We can get to the ins and outs though the person that liked your post and the few here arguing for it to track everything and have information about it. Not in relation to just yourself but other players and mobs you are fighting including skills used, etc.

I'd rather people do the theory crafting with a combat log spend time and communicate with others in finding the cool builds they want to do and what they feel is effective. It will make things much more social then the alternative this guy wants to be able to be in a trade and pull up a log and go through players and mobs, dmg, skills, etc that they are fighting or working with.

Then it leads to people starting to post online and trying to create some data base of information based on what they track on people. Then toxicity starts to grow, etc with the atmosphere that stuff creates. All done Easier if they have in game tracker and why they are trying to push for it. Combat log not showing your combat stats to other players around you will put a huge dent into making these 3rd party trackers far less effective.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'd rather people do the theory crafting with a combat log spend time and communicate with others in finding the cool builds they want to do and what they feel is effective. It will make things much more social then the alternative this guy wants to be able to be in a trade and pull up a log and go through players and mobs, dmg, skills, etc that they are fighting or working with.

Since I will not be using a Combat Tracker in Ashes, does this mean you consider it better for me to just ask everyone I group with for meaningful content to send me their Combat Log files?

This is a serious question with no specific underlying motive nor leadup other than the obvious extension.

"Do you think it is okay to have a culture where people request Combat Log files from each other in this way?"

Strevi

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'd rather people do the theory crafting with a combat log spend time and communicate with others in finding the cool builds they want to do and what they feel is effective. It will make things much more social then the alternative this guy wants to be able to be in a trade and pull up a log and go through players and mobs, dmg, skills, etc that they are fighting or working with.

Since I will not be using a Combat Tracker in Ashes, does this mean you consider it better for me to just ask everyone I group with for meaningful content to send me their Combat Log files?

This is a serious question with no specific underlying motive nor leadup other than the obvious extension.

"Do you think it is okay to have a culture where people request Combat Log files from each other in this way?"

request = demand, usually used by people who are in a position of power
Mag7spy used the word "communicate"

You both describe the same thing but putting the weight on different aspect, he on the social interaction, you on obtaining the information you need.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Sounds like you know about the game based on their stand point. No add ons or dps meter..

I understand their game (as we collectively understand it), and I understand their position on trackers.

I also understand the methods by which trackers for Ashes will operate, and how impossible they will be to prevent.

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