DPS Meter Megathread

@Aerlana
I pretty often respond to people's loaded questions, motivations and point of view. All the time. I just don't waste my time on exposition to signal how willing I am to conform. lmao

I must be blind from all this inexact data I have. nerdgachi only losers aren't OCD and aren't ungrounded, am i right boys?
get real

Illuminated by the data streams. . . Enlightened by your own Intelligence. . .

Sapiverenus wrote: »

I must be blind from all this inexact data I have. nerdgachi only losers aren't OCD and aren't ungrounded, am i right boys?
get real

Illuminated by the data streams. . . Enlightened by your own Intelligence. . .

Being OCD does indeed make someone more inclined to want objective data.

It isnt an outright connection (you can want such data and not be OCD and be OCD and not care about such data), but there is a small correlation.

But the question then becomes - so what?

Aerlana

Sapiverenus wrote: »

I've spoken about stuff I like in several games, mechanics I like, and the kind of game I'd like to play.

My question is not "what good idea that existed you like" but "what video game you find good"
Even on video game i dislike, i hated, there are ideas i find were really good and could be used again in other game... And a game you found excellent, top quality can have many flaw...
My game of heart, i would defend to death is Drakengard 3... and ... people who played it, even in its improved state on RPCS3... the flaws are obvious.

If you never liked any video game, just liked ideas/mechanics in them, if you never found one good, how could you even define what is a good video game ?

If it never existed in your opinion... how can you define "bad/good" which are subjectiv opinion, but also relativ... if all games are bad, no game is bad. if all game are good, no game is good

Understand : i could ignore you, and probably i should. but when i roam on forum, i consider that if anyone spend so much time posting, i could at least try to understand his opinion... and in 20 years on internet various forum speaking of various passions/hobby, you are one of the hardest opinion to understand...
You could love a game i find shit, it doesnt matter, this is your taste against mine, and i am far over thinking my taste is better than other...

You insult people on this forum... at least offers them clear answers...

"If you never liked any video game, just liked ideas/mechanics in them, if you never found one good, how could you even define what is a good video game ?"

How would you create one? Not by copying an entire game.
Most things in life simply require growth and struggle to improve, improve in, or grasp.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/367704/#Comment_367704

Refer to what I said to you about Engagement and this Video

Sapiverenus wrote: »

"If you never liked any video game, just liked ideas/mechanics in them, if you never found one good, how could you even define what is a good video game ?"

How would you create one? Not by copying an entire game.
Most things in life simply require growth and struggle to improve, improve in, or grasp.

Reading all of this, I couldn't make out the name of the game you've played that you like. Could you restate that for me pleas?

@Noaani @Azherae how close is this to yall's experience with trackers and their general functionality (mainly talking about the "window" here).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnnmIcAhuZ0

In L2 this "window" could be seen as the general buff amount and your very limited self-buffs that gave you a big boost (though this was mainly applicable to only one class). But considering that most bosses had a much longer ttk than just a few minutes, these "windows" weren't as important as they seem to be in WoW. And the general buff was always there (unless you royally fucked up your mana usage) so you'd be at a constant high boost of power.

Here's the most famous video of a "window" being utilized to its max

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-0320xPqvQ

This kind of method was used from time to time by other people, but usually you'd just farm normally cause your dps was enough to be in the best loot bracket.

And as an addition to that question, would you want to have the same kind of combat mechanic in Ashes, or is it not even a "want" but a "need" because this mechanic promotes the use of your analysis abilities?

@NiKr
They want to remove the need for analysis abilities.

If the feedback from the game is complex and compiled it's like trying to separate the individual signals from the complex one; like a fourier transform.

This sort of data analysis is performed all the time by people. Just trying to understand what someone is saying that has a different way of speaking will be a form of analysis.

Noaani and Azherae want everyone to speak the same way and simplify everything so they have a chance to compete. They want to make the game easier.

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani Azherae how close is this to yall's experience with trackers and their general functionality (mainly talking about the "window" here).

I'm a little confused about this question.

I don't see any relation at all to combat trackers, it is simply a matter of combat design.

I mean, they are using a combat tracker to observe the DPS output they are providing - but that amounts to little more than a feelsgoodman if they do well, or a feelsbadman if they had a bad performance.

This aspect tracks well with my experience of combat tracker use - you play the game how the game asks you to play it, then you see how well you did as an individual within the raid. Assuming the mob died, this is the limit to combat tracker use.

NiKr wrote: »

And as an addition to that question, would you want to have the same kind of combat mechanic in Ashes, or is it not even a "want" but a "need" because this mechanic promotes the use of your analysis abilities?

I would want to see that kind of mechanic, but expanded.

Instead of the player having a singular window that they are building up to, where everything is under their control, I'd rather have a system where the window is somewhat random. You prepare for the window as best you can, but you may need to fire off some of the cooldowns you would want to save for that window, and when the window does come, you may not have everything ready that you would have liked.

This will require players to have to think on their feet. The situation they find themselves in may not be the situation they had expected even just a few seconds ago.

The other thing I'd like to see that I don't see much in WoW is an alternative method to damage buffs. In most games, most damage buffs increase the damage of abilities cast by a flat percentage - so you save up all of your big hitters for those buffs.

However, if a damage buff instead added a significant flat amount of damage per ability cast, it changes things up. it adds value to faster casting abilities that may deal less damage, and potentially gives you two window types a player can attempt to alternate between (percentage increase window and flat damage window).

If you take this two window system in to account with the above somewhat randomness, then you have two windows that the player is kind of trying to make happen, but that kind of have a mind of their own (to an extent), and where the player will at times decide the best thing to do in a given situation may be a blend of the two windows.

This is basically EQ2.

Noaani wrote: »

I'm a little confused about this question.

I don't see any relation at all to combat trackers, it is simply a matter of combat design.

I mean, they are using a combat tracker to observe the DPS output they are providing - but that amounts to little more than a feelsgoodman if they do well, or a feelsbadman if they had a bad performance.

This aspect tracks well with my experience of combat tracker use - you play the game how the game asks you to play it, then you see how well you did as an individual within the raid. Assuming the mob died, this is the limit to combat tracker use.

Maybe I misunderstood it, but the window's dps output seemed to heavily rely on your rotations and build. Trackers let you know which rotation and build is the objectively best one, so that you can maximize your window's output.

And my question was whether your experience in non-wow games was similar to the one presented in that video. As in, "if you can't manage to maximize your window - your raid might wipe because the dps check was failed". And the tracker would be used before the fight to know your window's potential output and after the fight to see whether you matched that level or you failed and was the reason for the wipe (if I understand the tracker's application correctly).

NiKr wrote: »

Trackers let you know which rotation and build is the objectively best one, so that you can maximize your window's output.

Well, not quite.

Trackers give you the data of all the builds that you test. If you don't test the best build, a combat tracker isn't going to point you towards it.

Keep in mind, about 15 years in to WoW, top end guilds went through a fairly major change. Someone came up with a better raiding meta than what had been used. In the game with the most analysis (more analysis than many professional sports), it was simply a case of "no one thought of it" until that point.

And my question was whether your experience in non-wow games was similar to the one presented in that video. As in, "if you can't manage to maximize your window - your raid might wipe because the dps check was failed". And the tracker would be used before the fight to know your window's potential output and after the fight to see whether you matched that level or you failed and was the reason for the wipe (if I understand the tracker's application correctly).

I didn't get that at all from the video.

There was no mention at all of wiping the raid due to not maximizing their window. The only negative they talked about (that I noticed) was not topping DPS for the pull (well, he did say "your raid wipes because of a failed DPS check", but I took that as being hyperbolic - he himself claims to be near the bottom of the pack in terms of DPS, you aren't going to fail a check because one of your worst DPS had a bad minute). That is literally just missing out on a feelsgoodman moment - nothing more.

However, as a more direct answer to your question; no, that is not my experience. In EQ2, the window is not as defined, and is somewhat random. Rather than the raid wiping due to low DPS if you miss your window, it is possible the raid may wipe (on a DPS check encounter - of which there were few) if you made multiple bad decisions in a row in terms of ability use.

WoW's combat is static. If you know the class, build and gear of a character, you know what their output should be for a given encounter. EQ2's combat is less static (I will not say dynamic - that has become a meaningless PR word to me). If you know my build and gear, you can perhaps get an expected range of my output, but the low end is about half of what the high end is, and where I fall in that range is a product mostly of my decision making, but also a bit of luck.

farewell

DPS meters are an important tool to judge whether or not you are doing a role properly. Such is the same with overhealing meters etc etc. Straight off the top of my head the easiest way to keep meters in game for the good parts and removing the bad parts is just to have them personal with export options so if a group leader needs to figure out whats going wrong they can ask for the information.

@farewell
Or guild leader can check people's DPS before going into a raid, and have an officer see who is overhealing during any 'expedition'.
Tools that remove the challenge of leadership, organization, and cooperation, are simply cheap hacks.

Aerlana

farewell wrote: »

DPS meters are an important tool to judge whether or not you are doing a role properly. Such is the same with overhealing meters etc etc. Straight off the top of my head the easiest way to keep meters in game for the good parts and removing the bad parts is just to have them personal with export options so if a group leader needs to figure out whats going wrong they can ask for the information.

Then, what happens is a member refuses because, as some people said on this topic, they dislike this tool ?
"Don't go in guild who wish to perform in high end if you don't want the use of tracker" yes... but if all people in the guild have the same mindset about this topic, there is no problem about the "bad" use people doing it.

The idea currently supported is :
-guild perk tracker => guilds need to chose to take it, and is not totally free
-track only guild members => You go on guilds with tracker if you are fine with it. it becomes a way to chose that is clear.

AoC will be a game where you chose guild also for their perk... and the best way to have a guild cohesion is a guild with the same mindset everywhere. so i think have tracker this way reduces a lot (totally?) the bad part.

Also, your idea is better than the situation we will have for now, where people can have their data tracked, without knowing it... and so their fight efficiency being analysed by other players without even speaking to them about it... which is for me a real big problem...

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

And as an addition to that question, would you want to have the same kind of combat mechanic in Ashes, or is it not even a "want" but a "need" because this mechanic promotes the use of your analysis abilities?

No, I hate this. This has nothing to do with analysis abilities in the way that I view them.

This is exactly what people complain about. Someone is telling you 'the way to maximize a situation that is almost always available to you'.

You're not adapting, and the optimal build is almost always 'figure out whether the window is more important than the between' (definitionally it is).

The whole thing is terrible for me personally, but the video creator does a good job of explaining that this IS also skill related, but the skill it is rewarding is 'relatively binary', so it empowers build so much more than actual skill of either of the other two types (coordination with others, and ability to notice what's happening).

I have so many complaints about this, that it would become essays again. I am deeply saddened by the fact that WoW has made this the standard for so many MMO players, because it means that it's harder to have conversations, as you've seen.

You've just made me realize that people might just be expecting Ashes to do something like 'force the Window to synergize over multiple players', which would be a step in the right direction, but is only a quarter (in my estimation) of what needs to be fixed for this to be good.

But trying to explain it all...? It would literally be faster to gift you Monster Hunter World on Steam (you want it?) and even if I did, you'd have to find someone to play it with. Then again, you are tenacious enough to just work it all out over time, as you've said.

tl;dr this is not analysis to me, this is bad design propped up by meters which then in turn reinforces the need/use for the meters. WoW is the antithesis of what I like in game design.