CLASS affect CHARACTER LOOK

Level 50 fighter should look more muscular than a level 1.

Actually one of the reasons I like the idea of 'Exhaustion' in the game is how it can specifically affect the way the player gains stats and changes their appearance. Closer to exhaustion and more often, with more food, the greater muscle gain; since that's how muscle increases.

It should boil down to whether your head is big enough to be a level 50 Wizard, and whether your muscles are big enough to be a level 50 Fighter. Minimum thresholds.

Unarmed fighter? Big hands. Carrying big backpack everywhere with 100 lbs in it? Larger frame.

If you start with an anorexic Fighter or Tank and another person starts with the buffest possible Fighter or Tank; the buffest should become buffer probably through definition and ridiculous levels of buff; while the anorexic person reaches good but not crazy levels of buff.

Haven't eaten in days while hiking marathons with 200 lbs of stuff on? Lose some weight.

Wizard? Big head, facial hair. Ranger? well-rounded and broad back, broad waist too. Rogue? Lean and mean. Darker or more 'charismatic' look. Necromancer? Pale. Cleric? More balanced features I guess. Bard? Warm complexion.

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Sapiverenus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWbQ0NCzomk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzHJsyaZrC0

daveywavey

So, we spend all that time in the Character Creator, making our character look exactly how we want, and then it changes once we're levelled up? Sounds kinda sucky.

Noaani

All of this is simply another case of "perfectly fine idea, for a different game".

The ideas you are talking about here need to be a part of a game from inception, not shoehorned in after a few years of development. These ideas also dont mesh overly well with a game that has you purchase your characters looks - they need to be a part of a game where your characters look is purely a product of in game activities.

Sapiverenus

daveywavey wrote: »

So, we spend all that time in the Character Creator, making our character look exactly how we want, and then it changes once we're levelled up? Sounds kinda sucky.

Much of the look would still be there. The face would be similar. The level of change can be tuned.
In fact, you can preview what the level 50 char is going to look like and 'steer' the proportions, easily.

The point is you slowly become your class (class becomes part of character).
Your skeleton Fighter doesn't have to become an Orc leveling to 50. But there should be some significant change.

If information is hidden for PvP it is better to have a sense of what class someone probably is as they approach you or before you approach them.

It's more organic and makes the World more real than seeing goofy shit all the time. It's worth it, over cheap gags.

The Character Creator makes it easy to have this kind of "Character Progression".

Solmyr

This would definitely work well in a different game, but for an MMORPG you want player expression to remain fairly unrestricted, especially when it comes to ones own character.

If you tie appearance to stats, people will minmax it to the point where you only see a handful of template characters for any given role. You can even see this effect in the real world just by pure selection pressure, imagine how bad it would be in a world where you can choose your appearance.

I don't mind the idea of your character physically changing based on what they do, in fact I think that's a really cool idea, but it should definitely be optional and purely visual.

daveywavey

Solmyr wrote: »

This would definitely work well in a different game, but for an MMORPG you want player expression to remain fairly unrestricted, especially when it comes to ones own character.

If you tie appearance to stats, people will minmax it to the point where you only see a handful of template characters for any given role. You can even see this effect in the real world just by pure selection pressure, imagine how bad it would be in a world where you can choose your appearance.

I don't mind the idea of your character physically changing based on what they do, in fact I think that's a really cool idea, but it should definitely be optional and purely visual.

Ahhhhh, HoMM3 flashbacks from your username

Good times

Aerlana

20 years ago, chosing a race had 2 consequences :
1) define your look
2) define part of the build.

To take example everyone will easily see... Dnd3.5 (or currently, pathfinder)
with moon elf, you get +2 dex -2 con, and with shield dwarf... +2 con and -2 dext.
Both could be good with bow, but elf far better... while the dwarf is more fitted for front line spot.

And to follow what customers asked... most games now, including pen&paper RPG reduced the impact of the race in builds... The race restriction on classes is now see as a flaw for games. And wizard of the coast, in oneD&D (the 6th edition) will allow to have any base racial bonus with any race.

The global tendency so is... decorelate the character look with the character role. This is not what us here on this forum ask, this is what majority of RPG enjoyers (be it on video game or pen&paper) asked. . . I admit myself not fan of this, this is another reason for me to prefer dd3.5/pathfinder to dd5... but after speaking with lot of people clearly, "the liberty to chose the character look without have it to impact the character build" is clearly what majority wants, explaining this choice from game creators. . .

You idea is worse than the race choice for the build. I mean, you consider fighter to have big muscle... what about swashbuckler ? those are more on fighter side than rogue side but are not based on strength. maybe there will be good fighter build using dagger which, in people's mind is bind to... dext not str

So your idea has 2 flaws :
It is against what most people wants (so push the game in a niche... and you dislike niche)
It reduce the character customisation and not make it grow.

Azherae

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Level 50 fighter should look more muscular than a level 1.

Actually one of the reasons I like the idea of 'Exhaustion' in the game is how it can specifically affect the way the player gains stats and changes their appearance. Closer to exhaustion and more often, with more food, the greater muscle gain; since that's how muscle increases.

It should boil down to whether your head is big enough to be a level 50 Wizard, and whether your muscles are big enough to be a level 50 Fighter. Minimum thresholds.

Unarmed fighter? Big hands. Carrying big backpack everywhere with 100 lbs in it? Larger frame.

If you start with an anorexic Fighter or Tank and another person starts with the buffest possible Fighter or Tank; the buffest should become buffer probably through definition and ridiculous levels of buff; while the anorexic person reaches good but not crazy levels of buff.

Haven't eaten in days while hiking marathons with 200 lbs of stuff on? Lose some weight.

Wizard? Big head, facial hair. Ranger? well-rounded and broad back, broad waist too. Rogue? Lean and mean. Darker or more 'charismatic' look. Necromancer? Pale. Cleric? More balanced features I guess. Bard? Warm complexion.

I feel like this doesn't represent real life very well, only a shallow and possibly misguided perception of it.

We used to think that a lot of these things were VERY tied to physical traits, now we mostly know that they're not, particularly in a game with magic and lots of well made martial weaponry, and, as with most MMOs, minimal grappling/ability to knock down the opponent and fight on the ground.

This just leads into weird things similar to genderlocked games too.

You say 'Wizard, big head, facial hair', but then what's 'Witch'?

BaSkA_9x2

I would hope that the gear you will wear changes characters' visuals enough to make you look interesting enough towards a role. In other words some gear will make you look like a tank, other gear will make you look like a magic wielder, other gear will make you look like an assassin, etc. regardless of your class.

No need to make a character's physical features change based on your experience/class/level/whatever else. One thing I would be a fan of is for hair to grow and in case it doesn't grow I hope you can change your hair color/size and add/remove tattoos if you go to a magical hairdresser NPC.

So, at least for now, any other physical appearance changes are unnecessary and one should be able to get the appearance they want during character creation.

Sapiverenus

Solmyr wrote: »

This would definitely work well in a different game, but for an MMORPG you want player expression to remain fairly unrestricted, especially when it comes to ones own character.

If you tie appearance to stats, people will minmax it to the point where you only see a handful of template characters for any given role. You can even see this effect in the real world just by pure selection pressure, imagine how bad it would be in a world where you can choose your appearance.

I don't mind the idea of your character physically changing based on what they do, in fact I think that's a really cool idea, but it should definitely be optional and purely visual.

I didn't mean that appearance affects stats, but that stats affects appearance.

Sapiverenus

Aerlana wrote: »

20 years ago, chosing a race had 2 consequences :
1) define your look
2) define part of the build.

To take example everyone will easily see... Dnd3.5 (or currently, pathfinder)
with moon elf, you get +2 dex -2 con, and with shield dwarf... +2 con and -2 dext.
Both could be good with bow, but elf far better... while the dwarf is more fitted for front line spot.

And to follow what customers asked... most games now, including pen&paper RPG reduced the impact of the race in builds... The race restriction on classes is now see as a flaw for games. And wizard of the coast, in oneD&D (the 6th edition) will allow to have any base racial bonus with any race.

The global tendency so is... decorelate the character look with the character role. This is not what us here on this forum ask, this is what majority of RPG enjoyers (be it on video game or pen&paper) asked. . . I admit myself not fan of this, this is another reason for me to prefer dd3.5/pathfinder to dd5... but after speaking with lot of people clearly, "the liberty to chose the character look without have it to impact the character build" is clearly what majority wants, explaining this choice from game creators. . .

You idea is worse than the race choice for the build. I mean, you consider fighter to have big muscle... what about swashbuckler ? those are more on fighter side than rogue side but are not based on strength. maybe there will be good fighter build using dagger which, in people's mind is bind to... dext not str

So your idea has 2 flaws :
It is against what most people wants (so push the game in a niche... and you dislike niche)
It reduce the character customisation and not make it grow.

Character customization in itself is a gimmick and people ask for dumb stuff all the time.
The REAL trend is to lose spine and bend to every whim of customers once the money starts rolling in LMAO

Based on attributes is what I intended and I don't intend for initial appearance to really affect stats, but there be a limit to how extreme your character visually can deviate from your attribute.

Nothing should really be detracting from the world.
Gimmick Goofy Jokes can lie in their Grave.

Again: People complain, say, ask for, hate, dumb shit all the time.
People who start a company have spine and that softens over-time as money and ### of customers start going up.

When they have no profits and small ## of customers -> spine is intact because it's less intimidating.

Sapiverenus

Azherae wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Level 50 fighter should look more muscular than a level 1.

Actually one of the reasons I like the idea of 'Exhaustion' in the game is how it can specifically affect the way the player gains stats and changes their appearance. Closer to exhaustion and more often, with more food, the greater muscle gain; since that's how muscle increases.

It should boil down to whether your head is big enough to be a level 50 Wizard, and whether your muscles are big enough to be a level 50 Fighter. Minimum thresholds.

Unarmed fighter? Big hands. Carrying big backpack everywhere with 100 lbs in it? Larger frame.

If you start with an anorexic Fighter or Tank and another person starts with the buffest possible Fighter or Tank; the buffest should become buffer probably through definition and ridiculous levels of buff; while the anorexic person reaches good but not crazy levels of buff.

Haven't eaten in days while hiking marathons with 200 lbs of stuff on? Lose some weight.

Wizard? Big head, facial hair. Ranger? well-rounded and broad back, broad waist too. Rogue? Lean and mean. Darker or more 'charismatic' look. Necromancer? Pale. Cleric? More balanced features I guess. Bard? Warm complexion.

I feel like this doesn't represent real life very well, only a shallow and possibly misguided perception of it.

We used to think that a lot of these things were VERY tied to physical traits, now we mostly know that they're not, particularly in a game with magic and lots of well made martial weaponry, and, as with most MMOs, minimal grappling/ability to knock down the opponent and fight on the ground.

This just leads into weird things similar to genderlocked games too.

You say 'Wizard, big head, facial hair', but then what's 'Witch'?

I'd like to keep range and look for a large pool of examples.

Muscle and such still impacts strength and definitely injury prevention. Someone 'gifted' in powerlifting can be pretty scrawny but usually have the bone/limb/torso structure for it and use minimal range of motion. Strength, Agility, Stamina, and Constitution is still very much tied to standard muscle.
For those that are scrawny and running ultra-marathons: they are doing everything to keep their weight minimal. If you increase the weight on their body slightly their endurance suffers greatly. They only have endurance at a very low level of strength.
For strength athletes: Look at Strongman competitions.
For agility: Agile people have a minimum of musculature or are quite small. Even basketball players, being tall and 'lanky' are more muscular. Sprinters have a decent amount of leg musculature (definition & size).

Combining any physical attributes, expanding the range of motion, increasing variability; you get muscle. Through extreme focus, extremely focusing one's 'ability', you get deviations from such.

So general physicality boils down to muscle. Very important for injury prevention as well.
Muscle growth generally boils down to pushing close to strength failure then using less weight and pushing close to failure again (which can be done by doing a different exercise that uses that muscle somewhat).
So if a person never pushes to muscular exhaustion they are taking a long long long road to the goal, and will, all else equal, have a worse baseline fitness compared to someone who simply pushed to failure on exercises.

Strength, Agility, and even Stamina and Constitution are partially 'skill' though. That 'skill' can help one target specific areas they want to improve as well.

So yes it has some layers to it.

As for Mages, Summoners, Bards and Clerics -->> who knows lol. It would have to be tied to their magic more than something physical. But Wizards probably strain their brain pretty hard all the time, similar to PUSHING TO THE LIMIT for muscle growth so Big Head makes perfect sense. I can relate, my head is big and so are my muscles, and I know why LMAO. Same push to exhaustion for my brain as well.

Azherae

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Level 50 fighter should look more muscular than a level 1.

Actually one of the reasons I like the idea of 'Exhaustion' in the game is how it can specifically affect the way the player gains stats and changes their appearance. Closer to exhaustion and more often, with more food, the greater muscle gain; since that's how muscle increases.

It should boil down to whether your head is big enough to be a level 50 Wizard, and whether your muscles are big enough to be a level 50 Fighter. Minimum thresholds.

Unarmed fighter? Big hands. Carrying big backpack everywhere with 100 lbs in it? Larger frame.

If you start with an anorexic Fighter or Tank and another person starts with the buffest possible Fighter or Tank; the buffest should become buffer probably through definition and ridiculous levels of buff; while the anorexic person reaches good but not crazy levels of buff.

Haven't eaten in days while hiking marathons with 200 lbs of stuff on? Lose some weight.

Wizard? Big head, facial hair. Ranger? well-rounded and broad back, broad waist too. Rogue? Lean and mean. Darker or more 'charismatic' look. Necromancer? Pale. Cleric? More balanced features I guess. Bard? Warm complexion.

I feel like this doesn't represent real life very well, only a shallow and possibly misguided perception of it.

We used to think that a lot of these things were VERY tied to physical traits, now we mostly know that they're not, particularly in a game with magic and lots of well made martial weaponry, and, as with most MMOs, minimal grappling/ability to knock down the opponent and fight on the ground.

This just leads into weird things similar to genderlocked games too.

You say 'Wizard, big head, facial hair', but then what's 'Witch'?

As for Mages, Summoners, Bards and Clerics -->> who knows lol. It would have to be tied to their magic more than something physical. But Wizards probably strain their brain pretty hard all the time, similar to PUSHING TO THE LIMIT for muscle growth so Big Head makes perfect sense. I can relate, my head is big and so are my muscles, and I know why LMAO. Same push to exhaustion for my brain as well.

Right but there's a difference between:

"I have a naturally large head and brain."

and

"I have so many ideas and think so much of them that I have a swelled head."

Sapiverenus

@Azherae
The difference doesn't need to be elaborated upon. Both can exist; and I am pretty sure anyone with a big head pushes their brain (reality here). Unless their skull is extremely thick or something and/or there's a lot of tissue wrapped around it.
Those that push their mind may not have a big brain but sharp features instead though; just like one can have definition rather than size with muscle.

Azherae

Sapiverenus wrote: »

@Azherae
The difference doesn't need to be elaborated upon. Both can exist; and I am pretty sure anyone with a big head pushes their brain (reality here). Unless their skull is extremely thick or something and/or there's a lot of tissue wrapped around it.
Those that push their mind may not have a big brain but sharp features instead though; just like one can have definition rather than size with muscle.

Features as in, facial features?

I'm really not too versed in the morphology of the brain-to-facial-structure connection, so I'm not sure if you mean something else.

Sapiverenus

Yes face and/or bone structure. Skull mostly since it encases the brain.
Face tends to express a person's mind and brain as well. Eyes formed by pinching a piece of brain while in the womb, something with that would make sense too.

Sapiverenus

TRY BEFORE YOU BUY

Test out level 10 versions of each race and class, with their unique attributes before creating a character.

Max level is planned to be 50 btw.

Race: Different stats! Different skills!
Class: Different stats! Different skills!

So feel how fast, strong, slow, weak, powerful, et cetera they all are in a quick 'switch between' test mode.

Instead of having the option to spawn enemies and switch between races and classes in the standard way, have a physical map that changes your race and class based on where you are! Fuck menus!

In fact, character creator could start there! Game could just be ->

Basically you move through the small branching map to pick your race and class. Each is like a microcosm representative of the 'choice' you're picking.

You walk into one area you transform into that. When you spawn in you look like some. . . Essence. . . form. . . something. Something lore based, basically. Energy. Whatever.

So start with male/ female 2 ways heh heh
then 9 paths/ tunnels/ hallways/ trails/ whatever leading out of the starting area to pick your race (however many there are)
then 8 paths or whatever for each class.

All of them should be like their own microcosm, think "Caverns of Time" world of warcraft except much better, much more style, and some ON POINT thematic stuff. Bit of Alice in Wonderland, Caverns of Time, even optical illusion (through the looking glass alice in wonderland) type stuff.

For each race + class, there is a safe area and a dark place to go to to fight enemies!

This permits playtesting before committing; tryout of level 10

profession type stuff existing in the Race or Gender areas, then combat type stuff in the Class areas. Game systems demonstrated in the microcosm of each selection.

Kill the enemies reach the end of the cave and go through the portal to enter a small underground chamber with a faintly illuminescent pool of water at the opposite end with some sort of arches around it seemingly chiseled from the rough cave stone! Enter the pool of water then suddenly --> the player can't move! the water turns into a solid and starts climbing up the player and dragging it down! Translucent star and galaxy speckled purple cosmic goop???? With a spinning flow [vortex] starting from the edges rather than the center?

Then: CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION MODE!

Devs, Make the character customization background look good and reflect one's race and class choice and the fact they're portaling through the cosmos, rather than be a blank slate or simply "thematic" to their race/class.
Have the face make expressions characteristic of the race and class, and the situation they're in -> some sort of DESCENT INTO THE MATERIAL PLANE.

Then: VERRA!

Easy win, Intrepid.

TheWolfofGar

no, if someone wants to play a jacked wizard or rogue they should be able to, just like you should be able to tank as a tiny character, forcing conformity in aesthetic for classes would ruin the whole point of customization just make it like PoE or Diablo and all barbarians look like x. I want people to have choice not the dev to force choice on the player, you shouldn't need to be a long bearded wizard. nor should wisdom contribute to your beard length. I'm genuinely confused how you think this would be fun.

Sapiverenus

@TheWolfofGar

"Would ruin the whole point of it"

The point of it is customization. You still would get customization. And PoE doesn't provide any individual nuanced customization (beyond class) whatsoever.

You make no point through BS exaggeration LMAO it's just whining.

"I can't have it all so it's worth nothing!"

The beard thing is somewhat of a joke but there's a reason people look the way they do and for the physical traits tied to Physical classes there is ample evidence, experience, and basic reasoning to determine it; it is easy to assess.

For Magic classes there is research and examples that can be studied, but something simply thematic like looking a bit more aligned to the magic you use can be nuanced and effective at conveying the influence of their practice.

Who thinks cheap gags are fun? Better question: Who cares if people complain they can't pull cheap gags?

Everyone else (and probably you after you stop complaining about it) appreciate playing an RPG in a 'World' where your choices fuckin' matter. You choose Rogue? That has an impact. Rather than no impact and your cheap lazy c u s t o m joke character having 999x the visual impact than how your character actually works and how you play the game.

TheWolfofGar

Sapiverenus wrote: »

@TheWolfofGar

"Would ruin the whole point of it"

The point of it is customization. You still would get customization. And PoE doesn't provide any individual nuanced customization (beyond class) whatsoever.

- the character creator is the nuanced customization. That is all that's needed. Also if you are going to quote someone at least use the full sentence in context. I said "..forcing conformity in aesthetic for classes would ruin the whole point of customization.. You cannot give people customization and also say but if your character doesn't appear nimble your rogue build is impacted.

Sapiverenus wrote: »

You make no point through BS exaggeration LMAO it's just whining.

I'm not exaggerating I'm stating facts the system you propose is mutually exclusive and forcibly creates a meta for character creation and your class. This system is stupid.

Sapiverenus wrote: »

The beard thing is somewhat of a joke but there's a reason people look the way they do and for the physical traits tied to Physical classes there is ample evidence, experience, and basic reasoning to determine it; it is easy to assess.

Yes, irl a strong muscled figure would be able to carry more than a smaller thinner built character no one disputes this, it's still shit game design, having carrying capacity or damage potential forces the meta, where if you play a rogue and are tall you lose stealth potential makes having the ability to be a tall rogue in the first place dumb hence my comment about then reducing down to an archetypical character similar to PoE or Diablo.

Sapiverenus wrote: »

For Magic classes there is research and examples that can be studied, but something simply thematic like looking a bit more aligned to the magic you use can be nuanced and effective at conveying the influence of their practice.

No there are no real life examples to study because magic isn't real, theres no reason your magician can't be toned, young and strong like Gambit, or Harry Dresden. Rather than using magic determining your look, you can solve this by having gear buff certain actions and if your a fire mage your gonna want the fire gear, but I also support a transmog system so if you want to firemage while looking like a rogue or tank I think you should be able to.

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Who thinks cheap gags are fun? Better question: Who cares if people complain they can't pull cheap gags?

Everyone else (and probably you after you stop complaining about it) appreciate playing an RPG in a 'World' where your choices fuckin' matter. You choose Rogue? That has an impact. Rather than no impact and your cheap lazy c u s t o m joke character having 999x the visual impact than how your character actually works and how you play the game.

Choosing rogue already has impact on how I play I equally do not care that you would find it immersion breaking for a giant rogue to drop stealth behind you when your character clearly should have been able to see them since they are so big.

Gear can and should in most instances resolve what you want forcing a meta for your character look is a terrible idea. There is no reason for a complex character creator if how you look can break your preferred play style. Again if that's what you want they would be better off giving Rogue 1, Rogue 2 character templates because the meta would inevitably reduce to that anyways.

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