DPS Meter Megathread

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Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

AoC is not everquest, tab target game play. Stop using game designed related in EQ as a reason to keep track of abilities. There shouldn't be a point where you need to know that, you are using excess of information as an excuse for tracker you are wrong.

You keep talking, yet all you seem to know is 1v1 fighting.

In a 40 player raid, it is impossible to keep up. Not only do you have 40 people all interacting with a number of enemies, but those 40 people are also all interacting with each other.

I mean, it's not like Ashes is going to be some 2D fighting game where the ultimate defensive maneuver is a jump or crouch - though I'm sure you'd like that.

This is not Everquest, stop using EQ to compare if they need trackers when the game isn't being designed for trackers. You are simply using some large number to try to manipulate thoughts.

Literarily this guy is saying "I'm going to basic attack 1000 times so I need to know the information since you can't keep track how many times you basic attack"

You literally just proved Noaani's point with this statement.

I have stopped assuming that you are trolling with these responses, so I want to leave you to it, but I feel like you're going to derail the conversation even more than it almost always already is, and you're going to complain about literally all the discussion points I could possibly use to prevent that, now that we've reached this specific point.

Don't suppose I could get you to stop on your own?

No point was proven all both you can do is assume things on people because you don't care what other people think you you deem you can convince them.

Only point that is proven is Noaani and you are both people that would be toxic when it comes to trackers. You will assume, you will skew discussions or topics into what you want, as well as be manipulative. All qualities needed to have a view point on someone and removing them from your group if they aren't preforming based on the tracker and the information you tell them.

Listen to me or don't talk, do what I want or get out of the group (even if you don't say it directly). Its a pattern that has been shown from both you tbh.

But hey you don't care about other peoples view points so its fine, you simply want trackers for some pretty weak reasons.

Sapiverenus

Tragnar wrote: »

It is actually pretty funny that EVEN IF there would be 0 display numbers then from that we can actually get numbers that will be really accurate up to a hidden random variance (like the exact copy of a mob can have +- 5 hp varience)

even if you hide hp bars you can still get all game values with repetitive work on all numbers you and your enemies have

The variance needs complex behavior to be basically encrypted.
If damage is hitbox based and that's pretty accurate to the model then there's even more to go through as someone trying to analyze it. Arm hit = Arm mechanics impacted for instance.
That's priority on making a good game where being ENGAGED is #1.

It can be made practically unfeasible; oh hey they figured a lot out after 2 years? Well that's a hell of a lot better than the first month. 2 years later their tracker is useful.
Oh by the way we're patching in sweeping changes and everything you learned will be somewhat useful to figure it out, but it'll be another 1 year until your attempt at a tracker is useful again.

And if it's all grounded rather than arbitrary 'anti-tracker' mechanics then even if they create a tracker, every good player can simply play the game and be top .1% or better because the game makes more sense to those with grounding in reality and how stuff works, just being ENGAGED with what's happening.

and How does a bot/ script figure out what's going-on on the screen if there's "Hostile Patterns" embedded into it? LOL

What happens if sometimes there's no indication you're even targetting something? LOL Click and Pray. Maybe it's some shadowy Rogue type perk that certain Mobs have.

Azherae

Well, let's try this since it's simple and easily ignored by everyone else:

@Mag7spy, either you think the below is useful, or you don't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4roiUPEtwk

Now, if Noaani were a fighting gamer and watched this, I would expect Noaani to find it very useful. Technically, I would assume that even without being one, Noaani could find this useful ANYWAY.

If you want to convince people that a situation with 20-40x the data density of a MINUTE of video above could be done in realtime instead of in slow motion, with no equivalent of that JustFrame Analysis for review afterward, please do that instead of just randomly making up stuff no one else said.

Or, at least clarify that you think all of that analysis was unnecessary and you should be able to do it by feeling if you 'had real skill' or whatever it is you do.

Sapiverenus

@Azherae

You seem to be arguing that a game can't be figured out in a minute so people need trackers.
You learn and get good at the game by playing it for hours and days and weeks lmao. Everything after that can be rather intuitive.

Azherae

Sapiverenus wrote: »

@Azherae

You seem to be arguing that a game can't be figured out in a minute so people need trackers.
You learn and get good at the game by playing it for hours and days and weeks lmao. Everything after that can be rather intuitive.

If you actually watched the video, this answer is a sign that you EXPLICITLY did not understand it. This is not surprising. You would need a greater understanding of the point being made. Your perception of my argument is in fact, incorrect, you do not have enough information/experience to understand the argument. Only Mag7 does.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Well, let's try this since it's simple and easily ignored by everyone else:

@Mag7spy, either you think the below is useful, or you don't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4roiUPEtwk

Now, if Noaani were a fighting gamer and watched this, I would expect Noaani to find it very useful. Technically, I would assume that even without being one, Noaani could find this useful ANYWAY.

If you want to convince people that a situation with 20-40x the data density of a MINUTE of video above could be done in realtime instead of in slow motion, with no equivalent of that JustFrame Analysis for review afterward, please do that instead of just randomly making up stuff no one else said.

Or, at least clarify that you think all of that analysis was unnecessary and you should be able to do it by feeling if you 'had real skill' or whatever it is you do.

You are using the same weak point not all information you do is needed to be tracked. That is like saying ok we need to track you WASD movements to make sure you are using the minimal amount of movement so you don't lose time on attacks. NOR is the game being designed for trackers and dps meters..

Stop using weak points as reasons for trackers, this is not EQ, this is not a mmorpg made 20 years ago.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Well, let's try this since it's simple and easily ignored by everyone else:

@Mag7spy, either you think the below is useful, or you don't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4roiUPEtwk

Now, if Noaani were a fighting gamer and watched this, I would expect Noaani to find it very useful. Technically, I would assume that even without being one, Noaani could find this useful ANYWAY.

If you want to convince people that a situation with 20-40x the data density of a MINUTE of video above could be done in realtime instead of in slow motion, with no equivalent of that JustFrame Analysis for review afterward, please do that instead of just randomly making up stuff no one else said.

Or, at least clarify that you think all of that analysis was unnecessary and you should be able to do it by feeling if you 'had real skill' or whatever it is you do.

You are using the same weak point not all information you do is needed to be tracked. That is like saying ok we need to track you WASD movements to make sure you are using the minimal amount of movement so you don't lose time on attacks. NOR is the game being designed for trackers and dps meters..

Stop using weak points as reasons for trackers, this is not EQ, this is not a mmorpg made 20 years ago.

I didn't make a point. I asked you to make yours using a more realistic baseline.

I literally gave you 'a 2D fighting game with an analytic video' so you could explain to Noaani why, in your opinion, the analytics done are not required, and would not be required even with multiple times the same amount of information.

You could use it, even if barely, or you could use it dismissively. Instead you choose to dismiss it, and advance nothing. This is predictable, but I have done my 'duty' to my group, so I thank you for at least responding to it.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

No point was proven all both you can do is assume things on people because you don't care what other people think you you deem you can convince them.

This is not true.

I have no intention at all of trying to convince anyone that doesn't use a tracker that they should use one.

What I am doing - what I have always been doing - is pointing out to people that if they don't have a tracker and I do, they don't really need to concern themselves with it at all. It literally doesn't impact on them at all.

This is one of many aspects that you have failed to explain. If I have a tracker and you do not, why would you care?

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

This is not Everquest, stop using EQ to compare if they need trackers when the game isn't being designed for trackers.

I'm not.

I'm using all MMO's.

More specifically, EQ, EQ2, DDO, UO, LotRO, WoW, Rift, L2, AA, SWG, EVE, ESO, GW, GW2, FFXI, FFXIV, AoC (the first), WAR, Vanguard, Tera, DCUO, CoH/V, Flyff, DAOC and Aion.

These are the games I am talking about.

These are games I know people use trackers with. In some of them, trackers are required. I am not just talking about trackers being required in Ashes though, I am talking about them being useful tools. In every one of the games above, a combat tracker is a useful tool that exists.

Yes its a tool meant to make the game "easier" because some people can't handle actually taking time on a game to figure things out. A tool made under certain kinds of combat and the rules that generally follow it in lines with TAB gameplay because the difficulty isn't the combat as far as aiming and tacking is concerned.

Difficulty of tab games more in lines with skill use and builds it lacks the action elements of difficulty. Hence giving more power for trackers and those are the kinds of game it is designed for. More action elements that are added the further you get away from trackers being effective.

Again you don't care about that, it is also why you want people in your raid to be more focused on tab. The more in lines with tab the more effective a tracker will be as it makes things more simply with having to worry about less game play challenges.

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

You seem to be arguing that a game can't be figured out in a minute so people need trackers.
You learn and get good at the game by playing it for hours and days and weeks lmao. Everything after that can be rather intuitive.

Even with trackers, games aren't "worked out" for decades.

Pick better points to argue.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Well, let's try this since it's simple and easily ignored by everyone else:

@Mag7spy, either you think the below is useful, or you don't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4roiUPEtwk

Now, if Noaani were a fighting gamer and watched this, I would expect Noaani to find it very useful. Technically, I would assume that even without being one, Noaani could find this useful ANYWAY.

If you want to convince people that a situation with 20-40x the data density of a MINUTE of video above could be done in realtime instead of in slow motion, with no equivalent of that JustFrame Analysis for review afterward, please do that instead of just randomly making up stuff no one else said.

Or, at least clarify that you think all of that analysis was unnecessary and you should be able to do it by feeling if you 'had real skill' or whatever it is you do.

You are using the same weak point not all information you do is needed to be tracked. That is like saying ok we need to track you WASD movements to make sure you are using the minimal amount of movement so you don't lose time on attacks. NOR is the game being designed for trackers and dps meters..

Stop using weak points as reasons for trackers, this is not EQ, this is not a mmorpg made 20 years ago.

I didn't make a point. I asked you to make yours using a more realistic baseline.

I literally gave you 'a 2D fighting game with an analytic video' so you could explain to Noaani why, in your opinion, the analytics done are not required, and would not be required even with multiple times the same amount of information.

You could use it, even if barely, or you could use it dismissively. Instead you choose to dismiss it, and advance nothing. This is predictable, but I have done my 'duty' to my group, so I thank you for at least responding to it.

Only way you would understand fighting game stuff with me is if we actually played a fighting game that i deemed I wanted to play. Which generally is just soul calibur. And you could do all your test stuff and then understand what I mean and how I feel about fighting games as far as skill is concerned and knowledge when you fight me.

Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much.

I don't need to write a page on my reasoning that you were already given, overload of irrelevant information is not a reason for trackers.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Yes its a tool meant to make the game "easier" because some people can't handle actually taking time on a game to figure things out. A tool made under certain kinds of combat and the rules that generally follow it in lines with TAB gameplay because the difficulty isn't the combat as far as aiming and tacking is concerned.

Difficulty of tab games more in lines with skill use and builds it lacks the action elements of difficulty. Hence giving more power for trackers and those are the kinds of game it is designed for. More action elements that are added the further you get away from trackers being effective.

Again you don't care about that, it is also why you want people in your raid to be more focused on tab. The more in lines with tab the more effective a tracker will be as it makes things more simply with having to worry about less game play challenges.

Ashes is going to be about 50% tab target. Every player will need to select AT LEAST 25% tab target abilities, and up to 75%.

If you are saying that combat trackers are only useful in tab target games, then you are saying they will be less useful, but still very useful in Ashes.

Keep in mind, I am not saying they are only useful in tab target games. They are also useful in action combat games - I'm just responding to this argument of yours here.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

No point was proven all both you can do is assume things on people because you don't care what other people think you you deem you can convince them.

This is not true.

I have no intention at all of trying to convince anyone that doesn't use a tracker that they should use one.

What I am doing - what I have always been doing - is pointing out to people that if they don't have a tracker and I do, they don't really need to concern themselves with it at all. It literally doesn't impact on them at all.

This is one of many aspects that you have failed to explain. If I have a tracker and you do not, why would you care?

I care because you shouldn't be reading information from mobs or players by way of a tracker. You should have to figure that stuff on your own and use your own skill and knowledge, rather than looking for a "tool" to potentially make your discovery of information easier.

I care because what you want is trackers in the game to read other players and that will quickly spiral into something much worst, and grow the amount of toxicity as well when it comes to those kinds of tools with player mindset. As well as use of potential stronger third party software having gained more information from trackers in game.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much.

No one said this isn't the case.

However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better.

Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better.

It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

I care because you shouldn't be reading information from mobs or players by way of a tracker. You should have to figure that stuff on your own and use your own skill and knowledge, rather than looking for a "tool" to potentially make your discovery of information easier.

How do I figure it out on my own?

Kill the mob a few times.

How do you think I figure it out with a tracker?

Mag7spy wrote: »

I care because what you want is trackers in the game to read other players

My suggestion is to literally limit trackers from what will be available to players without Intrepid stepping in.

I am trying to stop the thing you are claiming is much worse - even though I don't believe it is. I am literally trying to stop it to stop people like you whining about it, and you are here whining about me trying to stop it.

I do have to wonder how you're going to feel during beta when I pull out a combat tracker and use it on someone that isn't even grouped with me. At least you get to tell everyone that you had a small part to play in making that a reality.

Aerlana

Lot of people wants (and some uses) a tracker for Lost Ark, no tab targetting...

Oh and the theorycraft community is really activ and does a lot of data analysis...
there are statistics, and we are able to know if a hit land or not, there are lifebar, etc etc. Same informations as we will have for ashes of creation.
Why do you think "action" does not allow data analysis ? Lets speak about hollow knight, no number showed, no "tab targetting" and still... people knows all numbers on it. . . Or souls game, people know damages they can do to bosses with each build, each weapon. No tab targetting again...
Do i have to give example of "non tab targetting with data analysis" ?

You can do data analysis on ANY game ... including a mario game... you don't need to collect all coins, just need to know how many you need.

And lets consider you are right... and so tracker are useless for ashes of creation as you say.
Fine... so where is the problem to have one, as guildperk... people using it will spend time on watching useless thing, this is their problem no ? I will spend time roleplaying on ashes, which will makes me win no level, gather no ressources, or what else... So having people have useless timespent on the game is not a problem right ?

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Yes its a tool meant to make the game "easier" because some people can't handle actually taking time on a game to figure things out. A tool made under certain kinds of combat and the rules that generally follow it in lines with TAB gameplay because the difficulty isn't the combat as far as aiming and tacking is concerned.

Difficulty of tab games more in lines with skill use and builds it lacks the action elements of difficulty. Hence giving more power for trackers and those are the kinds of game it is designed for. More action elements that are added the further you get away from trackers being effective.

Again you don't care about that, it is also why you want people in your raid to be more focused on tab. The more in lines with tab the more effective a tracker will be as it makes things more simply with having to worry about less game play challenges.

Ashes is going to be about 50% tab target. Every player will need to select AT LEAST 25% tab target abilities, and up to 75%.

If you are saying that combat trackers are only useful in tab target games, then you are saying they will be less useful, but still very useful in Ashes.

Keep in mind, I am not saying they are only useful in tab target games. They are also useful in action combat games - I'm just responding to this argument of yours here.

The way someone looks at trackers (if added) to a action game is far different than a tab game. Based on skill ceiling that is much more important than worrying about any tracker.

I'm well aware how ashes is, and if action does more dmg than tab that is what I would expect on a general note based on the skill you need to put in. This based on the gameplay will skew the value of information from the tracker compared to other mmorpgs based on the complexity of the combat... So if they want trackers to be not as useful they simply need to make the game more difficult and have a decent and fair learning curve with a high skill ceiling.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much.

No one said this isn't the case.

However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better.

Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better.

It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use.

You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker.

MrPockets

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

No point was proven all both you can do is assume things on people because you don't care what other people think you you deem you can convince them.

This is not true.

I have no intention at all of trying to convince anyone that doesn't use a tracker that they should use one.

What I am doing - what I have always been doing - is pointing out to people that if they don't have a tracker and I do, they don't really need to concern themselves with it at all. It literally doesn't impact on them at all.

This is one of many aspects that you have failed to explain. If I have a tracker and you do not, why would you care?

I feel like I've explained this multiple times, but it is never acknowledged...

I don't think most of us care (except sap I guess) if you have a tracker or not...but we do care when the average players do. More often than not, the average player will abuse/misuse a tool like this, leading to more people not enjoying their time with the game.

The main argument I can see to not want the top end players using trackers...is that they will influence the average players to think that this tool is required to play the game in general (not just top end fights).

I think this is what Mag is talking about when he claims you can't see the other perspectives. (correct me if I am wrong @Mag7spy )

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

So if they want trackers to be not as useful they simply need to make the game more difficult and have a decent and fair learning curve with a high skill ceiling.

That doesn't make trackers less useful though.

It doesn't make them more useful either.

It basically just leaves them exactly where they are.

As it stands, the correct use of a tracker to improve yourself in a game is that you determine where you are before you work on improving - you use a tracker to do this. Then you, well, you work on getting better. Then you use a tracker to compare where you were when you started with where you are after having worked to get better some.

I fail to see how a higher skill ceiling changes any of this.

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