Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much. No one said this isn't the case. However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better. Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better. It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use. You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker. If you do not want people to have a Tracker you cannot give them a Combat Log that gives them information. Combat log is fine, as long as you aren't getting information from other players in that combat log around you. The problem with this is that people will demand access to your log before taking you along on content. Even in EQ2 - where we had free reign on combat trackers for the entire area around us - we would still use an online tracker so that all logs of all members of the raid could be combined in order to get a more accurate reading.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much. No one said this isn't the case. However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better. Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better. It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use. You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker. If you do not want people to have a Tracker you cannot give them a Combat Log that gives them information. Combat log is fine, as long as you aren't getting information from other players in that combat log around you.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much. No one said this isn't the case. However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better. Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better. It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use. You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker. If you do not want people to have a Tracker you cannot give them a Combat Log that gives them information.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much. No one said this isn't the case. However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better. Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better. It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use. You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much. No one said this isn't the case. However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better. Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better. It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use.
Mag7spy wrote: » Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much.
Mag7spy wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » ... If personanl combat log exist, you understand that all toxic behaviour you complain will exist ? Huge difference between personal combat log, and someone tracking you. That is like you calling a bush on fire a forest fire.
Aerlana wrote: » ... If personanl combat log exist, you understand that all toxic behaviour you complain will exist ?
MrPockets wrote: » Noaani wrote: » MrPockets wrote: » I feel like I've explained this multiple times, but it is never acknowledged... I don't think most of us care (except sap I guess) if you have a tracker or not...but we do care when the average players do. More often than not, the average player will abuse/misuse a tool like this, leading to more people not enjoying their time with the game. The main argument I can see to not want the top end players using trackers...is that they will influence the average players to think that this tool is required to play the game in general (not just top end fights). I think this is what Mag is talking about when he claims you can't see the other perspectives. (correct me if I am wrong Mag7spy ) So, the suggestion I have been making for about 150 of the 170 pages of this thread is for a guild only tracker. This means that when you are in a guild, if that guild opts to take a tracker as a perk (in place of other options), then you have access to said tracker. That tracker then only works on members of that one guild. This means that you can only ever track people that are in your guild, and can only ever be tracked by people that are in your guild. If you are in a guild with someone that misuses a tracker in the way you are concerned about, then you are in a guild with someone that would be a dick anyone. In that case, you either remove that dick from the guild, or you leave the guild - not because of the tracker, but because of the dick. Personally, I'm not convinced that would solve the issue any better than the current stance of just not allowing them. In all honestly, I probably wouldn't care much if they implemented your idea. But that leads me to ask you a similar question. You've already presented your idea, the devs already have an official opinion on the matter...If you are going to have a tracker regardless, why do you care that other don't want one? I know you've mentioned PvE difficulty and what not in the past...but the dev have already made up their minds...at this point you will either like the PvE or not...why keep this thread alive? (I know you are not the only one, but we could all just stop. lol)
Noaani wrote: » MrPockets wrote: » I feel like I've explained this multiple times, but it is never acknowledged... I don't think most of us care (except sap I guess) if you have a tracker or not...but we do care when the average players do. More often than not, the average player will abuse/misuse a tool like this, leading to more people not enjoying their time with the game. The main argument I can see to not want the top end players using trackers...is that they will influence the average players to think that this tool is required to play the game in general (not just top end fights). I think this is what Mag is talking about when he claims you can't see the other perspectives. (correct me if I am wrong Mag7spy ) So, the suggestion I have been making for about 150 of the 170 pages of this thread is for a guild only tracker. This means that when you are in a guild, if that guild opts to take a tracker as a perk (in place of other options), then you have access to said tracker. That tracker then only works on members of that one guild. This means that you can only ever track people that are in your guild, and can only ever be tracked by people that are in your guild. If you are in a guild with someone that misuses a tracker in the way you are concerned about, then you are in a guild with someone that would be a dick anyone. In that case, you either remove that dick from the guild, or you leave the guild - not because of the tracker, but because of the dick.
MrPockets wrote: » I feel like I've explained this multiple times, but it is never acknowledged... I don't think most of us care (except sap I guess) if you have a tracker or not...but we do care when the average players do. More often than not, the average player will abuse/misuse a tool like this, leading to more people not enjoying their time with the game. The main argument I can see to not want the top end players using trackers...is that they will influence the average players to think that this tool is required to play the game in general (not just top end fights). I think this is what Mag is talking about when he claims you can't see the other perspectives. (correct me if I am wrong Mag7spy )
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » ... If personanl combat log exist, you understand that all toxic behaviour you complain will exist ? Huge difference between personal combat log, and someone tracking you. That is like you calling a bush on fire a forest fire. The point is relative to toxicity. You have basically made two points. You don't want Trackers to exist so that players can't blaze through content. But if a Combat Log exists and a group chooses to combine their logs, a Tracker exists. You don't want people tracking other people. That is avoidable if somehow logs are very carefully set, but then people might just refuse to let others join their guilds because of not providing logs. This would be fine and your goal would be achieved IF the first thing wasn't true. If there is a Log and people can share their logs, you cannot prevent the effects of a Tracker that you're concerned about. EDIT: At best, you can sorta-prevent the effects that @MrPockets is concerned about, but at that point, Noaani's suggestion is very slightly better. Because parsing logs is not hard. The only reason people don't know that it isn't hard is because Trackers are basically a one click solution whereas Parsers require you to type two lines and open Excel (opening Excel might be optional)
Mag7spy wrote: » I will say, If combat logs can be copy pasted or saved as a text file then that does not really help to prevent trackers. So again logs should not be copy pasted or viewed all at once. It needs to be akin to scroll through chats to view your damage done or taken.
MrPockets wrote: » You've already presented your idea, the devs already have an official opinion on the matter...If you are going to have a tracker regardless, why do you care that other don't want one?
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I will say, If combat logs can be copy pasted or saved as a text file then that does not really help to prevent trackers. So again logs should not be copy pasted or viewed all at once. It needs to be akin to scroll through chats to view your damage done or taken. So I believe this would mean that there should also be no way to maximize the chat window while viewing your logs, or you should not be able to take screenshots with the log window open?
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I will say, If combat logs can be copy pasted or saved as a text file then that does not really help to prevent trackers. So again logs should not be copy pasted or viewed all at once. It needs to be akin to scroll through chats to view your damage done or taken. So I believe this would mean that there should also be no way to maximze the chat window while viewing your logs, or you should not be able to take screenshots with the log window open? Not exactly but your aren't going to be able to fit hundreds of lines on your screen of combat in one go. Screenshot is fine, if someone wants to share some information that isn't really a issue. You should be well aware the difference of access of information with sharing if you compare that to giving a text file of all your information... I shouldn't really need to explain that.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I will say, If combat logs can be copy pasted or saved as a text file then that does not really help to prevent trackers. So again logs should not be copy pasted or viewed all at once. It needs to be akin to scroll through chats to view your damage done or taken. So I believe this would mean that there should also be no way to maximze the chat window while viewing your logs, or you should not be able to take screenshots with the log window open?
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » You seem to be arguing that a game can't be figured out in a minute so people need trackers. You learn and get good at the game by playing it for hours and days and weeks lmao. Everything after that can be rather intuitive. Even with trackers, games aren't "worked out" for decades. Pick better points to argue.
Sapiverenus wrote: » You seem to be arguing that a game can't be figured out in a minute so people need trackers. You learn and get good at the game by playing it for hours and days and weeks lmao. Everything after that can be rather intuitive.
Sapiverenus wrote: » @Azherae I know you think everyone is spineless enough that you can get your way. git gud will really rofl if game is made impossible for trackers or simply too difficult for you to enjoy and trackers do nothing for you
Noaani wrote: » MrPockets wrote: » You've already presented your idea, the devs already have an official opinion on the matter...If you are going to have a tracker regardless, why do you care that other don't want one? I don't care that others don't want one. My suggestion is specifically designed to cater to those that do not want a tracker. The reason I maintain my argument in this thread is more for a larger picture kind of thing. A PvP community can not sustain itself long term on the scale that Ashes needs, so the game needs people that are viable targets in PvP, but are not in the game specifically for PvP. The above excludes players that prefer PvP as they are in the game for PvP, and it excludes players that are not overly active in regards to combat - crafters and traders and such. I don't know of any other group of MMO players that fit this description other than PvE players. As such, to me, the games long term viability is directly related to it's PvE community. The better served that community is, the more PvP targets PvP players have, the longer those PvP players will stay in the game. Combat tracker support is one of those things that a PvE community expects. Rather than asking for support as per other games, I am asking for a built in tracker that Intrepid can control.
Mag7spy wrote: » You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I will say, If combat logs can be copy pasted or saved as a text file then that does not really help to prevent trackers. So again logs should not be copy pasted or viewed all at once. It needs to be akin to scroll through chats to view your damage done or taken. So I believe this would mean that there should also be no way to maximze the chat window while viewing your logs, or you should not be able to take screenshots with the log window open? Not exactly but your aren't going to be able to fit hundreds of lines on your screen of combat in one go. Screenshot is fine, if someone wants to share some information that isn't really a issue. You should be well aware the difference of access of information with sharing if you compare that to giving a text file of all your information... I shouldn't really need to explain that. There aren't going to be hundreds of lines on the screen if each person's log only shows their own stuff, though. Do you know how Optical Character Recognition works?
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I will say, If combat logs can be copy pasted or saved as a text file then that does not really help to prevent trackers. So again logs should not be copy pasted or viewed all at once. It needs to be akin to scroll through chats to view your damage done or taken. So I believe this would mean that there should also be no way to maximze the chat window while viewing your logs, or you should not be able to take screenshots with the log window open? Not exactly but your aren't going to be able to fit hundreds of lines on your screen of combat in one go. Screenshot is fine, if someone wants to share some information that isn't really a issue. You should be well aware the difference of access of information with sharing if you compare that to giving a text file of all your information... I shouldn't really need to explain that. There aren't going to be hundreds of lines on the screen if each person's log only shows their own stuff, though. Do you know how Optical Character Recognition works? Does it allow you to change in game logs through game files?
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format. It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates. Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT. With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content.
Mag7spy wrote: » Catering to the single digit of people that do raids and want them to be difficult and have trackers is not going to sustain a mmorpg. Making a good game with good gameplay loops, replayability, fun pvp, Politic driven pvp and territory control, good pve, good content overall, not destroyed by bugs WILL make a mmorpg with a community that will sustain itself.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format. It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates. Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT. With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content. I'm assuming this does this as you are playing?
