Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point. Who is 'we'? The Summit? What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs? I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people). The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'. I have spoken about 'no logs' and several other ways to make the game that would be hostile to scripts, bots, and tools such as trackers, and lean into engaging design. If 'no logs' and 'put the shame label on others' is your backbone: it's jelly. Crush the exploits. Crush the exploiters. Hostile Architecture You make yourself really hard to respond to because in many cases I either agree with you or don't care when it comes to Hostile Architecture. But I also know that Hostile Architecture doesn't actually stop Scripters, Botters, or Trackers, it only stops people who don't understand how those actually work. For the game to be incomprehensible to scripts, it has to be incomprehensible to most humans. For it to be hostile to bots, it has to be hostile to most average humans. For it to be hostile to Trackers, it has to be hostile to 'Presenting Clear Information Ever'. None of those things affect ME, but I like when MMOs have more than 80 players. Are you saying obfuscation of information beyond representation of a Glancing Blow, Hit, et cetera would make the game unplayable? That having a visual indication of damage or a creature being 'wounded', less battle effective, less mobile. . . whatever is not enough? No. Not saying that. Don't care personally. I play BDO on Console. I just also could write a script to parse damage on BDO Console from a video of it if I wanted to. So that's what I'm saying. I agree that you can implement Hostile Architecture. I do not agree that it would prevent me from writing the Scripts.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point. Who is 'we'? The Summit? What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs? I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people). The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'. I have spoken about 'no logs' and several other ways to make the game that would be hostile to scripts, bots, and tools such as trackers, and lean into engaging design. If 'no logs' and 'put the shame label on others' is your backbone: it's jelly. Crush the exploits. Crush the exploiters. Hostile Architecture You make yourself really hard to respond to because in many cases I either agree with you or don't care when it comes to Hostile Architecture. But I also know that Hostile Architecture doesn't actually stop Scripters, Botters, or Trackers, it only stops people who don't understand how those actually work. For the game to be incomprehensible to scripts, it has to be incomprehensible to most humans. For it to be hostile to bots, it has to be hostile to most average humans. For it to be hostile to Trackers, it has to be hostile to 'Presenting Clear Information Ever'. None of those things affect ME, but I like when MMOs have more than 80 players. Are you saying obfuscation of information beyond representation of a Glancing Blow, Hit, et cetera would make the game unplayable? That having a visual indication of damage or a creature being 'wounded', less battle effective, less mobile. . . whatever is not enough?
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point. Who is 'we'? The Summit? What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs? I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people). The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'. I have spoken about 'no logs' and several other ways to make the game that would be hostile to scripts, bots, and tools such as trackers, and lean into engaging design. If 'no logs' and 'put the shame label on others' is your backbone: it's jelly. Crush the exploits. Crush the exploiters. Hostile Architecture You make yourself really hard to respond to because in many cases I either agree with you or don't care when it comes to Hostile Architecture. But I also know that Hostile Architecture doesn't actually stop Scripters, Botters, or Trackers, it only stops people who don't understand how those actually work. For the game to be incomprehensible to scripts, it has to be incomprehensible to most humans. For it to be hostile to bots, it has to be hostile to most average humans. For it to be hostile to Trackers, it has to be hostile to 'Presenting Clear Information Ever'. None of those things affect ME, but I like when MMOs have more than 80 players.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point. Who is 'we'? The Summit? What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs? I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people). The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'. I have spoken about 'no logs' and several other ways to make the game that would be hostile to scripts, bots, and tools such as trackers, and lean into engaging design. If 'no logs' and 'put the shame label on others' is your backbone: it's jelly. Crush the exploits. Crush the exploiters. Hostile Architecture
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point. Who is 'we'? The Summit? What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs? I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people). The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point. Who is 'we'? The Summit? What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs?
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO
Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
Hostile Architecture
Aerlana wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Damn, yall been active today. Sapi is awakened, with all its love, peace, will to share experiences etc etc. (i still wait to know his favourite game btw... will i have the answer a day ? ...) Sapiverenus wrote: » A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes. For large majority of players, you are totally right. For top end... for people who consider being excellent is not enough : they work with it. The difference is for players, they don't care to be perfectly accurate. the "feeling it is the timing" is enough. For some people, this is NOT enough, they want to be perfeclyt accurate, have the absolute perfect timing. "feeling" is not enough when you want real results.
NiKr wrote: » Damn, yall been active today.
Sapiverenus wrote: » A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker. Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points. Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help. Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help. The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. Yeah, I know. Different games have different tools appropriate to them. As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO. A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes. You have no fire Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility. I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging. I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify. Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional. suffer the truth
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker. Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points. Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help. Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help. The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. Yeah, I know. Different games have different tools appropriate to them. As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO. A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes. You have no fire Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility. I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging. I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker. Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points. Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help. Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help. The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. Yeah, I know. Different games have different tools appropriate to them. As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO. A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes. You have no fire
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker. Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points. Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help. Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. Yeah, I know. Different games have different tools appropriate to them. As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO.
Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance.
Aerlana wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional. People can... if they train for it. how many will do it ? only a fraction. most people won't do it... If such thing (or similar) is needed to play a MMORPG they will stop after few hours... You will have only dedicated players, but mmorpg need a "mass" ... including people who don't want to invest too much energy, learning time about learning the game... if you do a hostile design as you say, you will mostly repel all them... not sure it is a decent idea for MMORPG
CptBrownBeard wrote: » This entire thread is the definition of insanity. It's like watching one of those slapstick comedies where the individuals beat the ever-living tar out of each other, end up sprawled out on the ground exhausted and in pain, and yet you know they'll be back to do it again the next day. I wouldn't be surprised if this thread was only allowed to continue so Intrepid had something to read while they're on lunch. Or relieving themselves of yesterday's lunch.
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker. Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points. Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help. Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help. The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. Yeah, I know. Different games have different tools appropriate to them. As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO. A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes. You have no fire Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility. I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging. I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify. Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional. suffer the truth This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports. A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'. It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted. But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video. Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker. Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points. Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help. Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help. The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. Yeah, I know. Different games have different tools appropriate to them. As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO. A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes. You have no fire Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility. I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging. I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify. Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional. suffer the truth This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports. A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'. It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted. But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video. Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it. You do not know what gets anyone to the top or beyond it. You have no clue how to generate results. Analyzing whether a fighting game has made it mathematically impossible for something can be figured out by playing the game until it's known.
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker. Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points. Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help. Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help. The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. Yeah, I know. Different games have different tools appropriate to them. As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO. A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes. You have no fire Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility. I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging. I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify. Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional. suffer the truth This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports. A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'. It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted. But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video. Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it. You do not know what gets anyone to the top or beyond it. You have no clue how to generate results. Analyzing whether a fighting game has made it mathematically impossible for something can be figured out by playing the game until it's known. Would your opinion be any different if you knew for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that I am the trainer/analyst for one of the best players in the world already? Or would it be easier to just claim that's not true, demand I prove it, and then discredit the player if I did?
Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker. Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points. Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help. Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help. The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. Yeah, I know. Different games have different tools appropriate to them. As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO. A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes. You have no fire Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility. I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging. I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify. Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional. suffer the truth This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports. A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'. It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted. But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video. Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it. You do not know what gets anyone to the top or beyond it. You have no clue how to generate results. Analyzing whether a fighting game has made it mathematically impossible for something can be figured out by playing the game until it's known. Would your opinion be any different if you knew for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that I am the trainer/analyst for one of the best players in the world already? Or would it be easier to just claim that's not true, demand I prove it, and then discredit the player if I did? Good job on picking up someone that out-works everyone else.
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker. Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points. Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help. Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help. The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. Yeah, I know. Different games have different tools appropriate to them. As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO. A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes. You have no fire Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility. I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging. I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify. Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional. suffer the truth This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports. A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'. It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted. But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video. Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it. You do not know what gets anyone to the top or beyond it. You have no clue how to generate results. Analyzing whether a fighting game has made it mathematically impossible for something can be figured out by playing the game until it's known. Would your opinion be any different if you knew for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that I am the trainer/analyst for one of the best players in the world already? Or would it be easier to just claim that's not true, demand I prove it, and then discredit the player if I did? Good job on picking up someone that out-works everyone else. Ok, would we then be on to 'proving that my methods of training' (which are all explicitly built around training faster and better rather than harder) were not the real reason? I'm working out 'which player I would need to contact if I needed to make this point for some reason'. Of course I should just ignore you, and in fact I'm not even claiming that, but I have that bad habit of continually checking to see if people are discussing things in good faith or not.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker. Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points. Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help. Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help. The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. Yeah, I know. Different games have different tools appropriate to them. As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO. A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes. You have no fire Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility. I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging. I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify. Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional. suffer the truth This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports. A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'. It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted. But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video. Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it. You do not know what gets anyone to the top or beyond it. You have no clue how to generate results. Analyzing whether a fighting game has made it mathematically impossible for something can be figured out by playing the game until it's known. Would your opinion be any different if you knew for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that I am the trainer/analyst for one of the best players in the world already? Or would it be easier to just claim that's not true, demand I prove it, and then discredit the player if I did? Good job on picking up someone that out-works everyone else. Ok, would we then be on to 'proving that my methods of training' (which are all explicitly built around training faster and better rather than harder) were not the real reason? I'm working out 'which player I would need to contact if I needed to make this point for some reason'. Of course I should just ignore you, and in fact I'm not even claiming that, but I have that bad habit of continually checking to see if people are discussing things in good faith or not. I have made my position clear. Whoever you contact and what they say means nothing to me. Whatever use your training has is marginal.
Natasha wrote: » CptBrownBeard wrote: » This entire thread is the definition of insanity. It's like watching one of those slapstick comedies where the individuals beat the ever-living tar out of each other, end up sprawled out on the ground exhausted and in pain, and yet you know they'll be back to do it again the next day. I wouldn't be surprised if this thread was only allowed to continue so Intrepid had something to read while they're on lunch. Or relieving themselves of yesterday's lunch. I have no clue why everyone's still here.
Aerlana wrote: » For me, i stop there with sapi... the last time i tried to debate with another one who did claims without anything support his claims, i was 19 and he was 20 (and fast after, he came back to discuss again... being far more informed and then we had interesting discussion... ) Sapi, you said yourself you don't play a lot video game, so you have low experience (and... it is fine, really, i won't blame you !) but you try to speak about a reality that is only yours, and... that all i saw in 19 years of online gaming prove to be false... Most of your claims is how i thought think 15 years ago in fact... And as time went, i saw this was not as simple as this... the more i played games, and the more i went on my studies, the more i saw such thought were false...
Aerlana wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Damn, yall been active today. Sapi is awakened, with all its love, peace, will to share experiences etc etc. (i still wait to know his favourite game btw... will i have the answer a day ? ...)
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker. Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points. Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help. Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help. The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. Yeah, I know. Different games have different tools appropriate to them. As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO. A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes. You have no fire Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility. I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging. I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify. Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional. suffer the truth This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports. A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'. It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted. But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video. Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it. You do not know what gets anyone to the top or beyond it. You have no clue how to generate results. Analyzing whether a fighting game has made it mathematically impossible for something can be figured out by playing the game until it's known. Would your opinion be any different if you knew for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that I am the trainer/analyst for one of the best players in the world already? Or would it be easier to just claim that's not true, demand I prove it, and then discredit the player if I did? Good job on picking up someone that out-works everyone else. Ok, would we then be on to 'proving that my methods of training' (which are all explicitly built around training faster and better rather than harder) were not the real reason? I'm working out 'which player I would need to contact if I needed to make this point for some reason'. Of course I should just ignore you, and in fact I'm not even claiming that, but I have that bad habit of continually checking to see if people are discussing things in good faith or not. I have made my position clear. Whoever you contact and what they say means nothing to me. Whatever use your training has is marginal. Perfect, thank you. You have indicated that you are, by choice, IMMUNE to the truth of how Fighting Games work, and it would not be too weird to extend this to you being IMMUNE to the truth of how Trackers work. However, @Mag7spy, I do not know for certain that you are also taking the path of 'Immunity to Facts' on this matter, so you can clarify it at your discretion too.
