Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » @Ace1234 Thank you for the summary. Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something. (there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly). Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe. What you say is false and you manipulate information lmao. You are not in the right and make false comparisons. I'm glad to revisit whatever the last false thing I said was, if you point it out for me. Note that it would need to be something that isn't just your opinion on how something works. If it is generally your opinion, please back it up with some other thing that is at least a strong theory so I can educate myself. I'm being serious here, because the way you normally answer/engage with me doesn't usually communicate what exactly it is you think I'm incorrect about, you just say that I am without much clarification sometimes. Please clarify it this time... or just ignore this, that's fine too. I'm being very serious as well, you try to make false comparisons at what you believe is right and take it as fact. You tried to argue about tacking akin to fighting games like that is a reason for trackers on "enhancing the experience". You try to talk like without it there are certain things you can't do when that is false in itself. Through experience you learn and understand the game, and skill will allow you to understand how to take on challenges and counter moves people do. You don't need to sit there looking at frames all day that isnt going to make you a better player. You are putting other information in this conversation trying to say "This has that so it means trackers can do everything" While missing the point I keep making. Skill is better, skill means there is les emphasis on trackers because the gameplay will be different then playing a tab target mmorpg where you stand in one spot and blow up a boss. You jump in to these conversations with a bias thinking you are simply right, and everyone else is wrong, and make false comparisons to attempt to prove your point or make up weird things in your head. That's why I asked you before about that specific situation where you can tell the difference between four Active Frames and five Active Frames, because that IS a situation where afaik normal humans can't tell the difference, but the difference is important. I want to understand your perspective on that scenario, because that scenario is real. We already have gone over this you should know the moves on your character and or able to figure out in fights the speed of which skill you need to use....
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » @Ace1234 Thank you for the summary. Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something. (there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly). Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe. What you say is false and you manipulate information lmao. You are not in the right and make false comparisons. I'm glad to revisit whatever the last false thing I said was, if you point it out for me. Note that it would need to be something that isn't just your opinion on how something works. If it is generally your opinion, please back it up with some other thing that is at least a strong theory so I can educate myself. I'm being serious here, because the way you normally answer/engage with me doesn't usually communicate what exactly it is you think I'm incorrect about, you just say that I am without much clarification sometimes. Please clarify it this time... or just ignore this, that's fine too. I'm being very serious as well, you try to make false comparisons at what you believe is right and take it as fact. You tried to argue about tacking akin to fighting games like that is a reason for trackers on "enhancing the experience". You try to talk like without it there are certain things you can't do when that is false in itself. Through experience you learn and understand the game, and skill will allow you to understand how to take on challenges and counter moves people do. You don't need to sit there looking at frames all day that isnt going to make you a better player. You are putting other information in this conversation trying to say "This has that so it means trackers can do everything" While missing the point I keep making. Skill is better, skill means there is les emphasis on trackers because the gameplay will be different then playing a tab target mmorpg where you stand in one spot and blow up a boss. You jump in to these conversations with a bias thinking you are simply right, and everyone else is wrong, and make false comparisons to attempt to prove your point or make up weird things in your head. That's why I asked you before about that specific situation where you can tell the difference between four Active Frames and five Active Frames, because that IS a situation where afaik normal humans can't tell the difference, but the difference is important. I want to understand your perspective on that scenario, because that scenario is real.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » @Ace1234 Thank you for the summary. Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something. (there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly). Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe. What you say is false and you manipulate information lmao. You are not in the right and make false comparisons. I'm glad to revisit whatever the last false thing I said was, if you point it out for me. Note that it would need to be something that isn't just your opinion on how something works. If it is generally your opinion, please back it up with some other thing that is at least a strong theory so I can educate myself. I'm being serious here, because the way you normally answer/engage with me doesn't usually communicate what exactly it is you think I'm incorrect about, you just say that I am without much clarification sometimes. Please clarify it this time... or just ignore this, that's fine too. I'm being very serious as well, you try to make false comparisons at what you believe is right and take it as fact. You tried to argue about tacking akin to fighting games like that is a reason for trackers on "enhancing the experience". You try to talk like without it there are certain things you can't do when that is false in itself. Through experience you learn and understand the game, and skill will allow you to understand how to take on challenges and counter moves people do. You don't need to sit there looking at frames all day that isnt going to make you a better player. You are putting other information in this conversation trying to say "This has that so it means trackers can do everything" While missing the point I keep making. Skill is better, skill means there is les emphasis on trackers because the gameplay will be different then playing a tab target mmorpg where you stand in one spot and blow up a boss. You jump in to these conversations with a bias thinking you are simply right, and everyone else is wrong, and make false comparisons to attempt to prove your point or make up weird things in your head.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » @Ace1234 Thank you for the summary. Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something. (there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly). Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe. What you say is false and you manipulate information lmao. You are not in the right and make false comparisons. I'm glad to revisit whatever the last false thing I said was, if you point it out for me. Note that it would need to be something that isn't just your opinion on how something works. If it is generally your opinion, please back it up with some other thing that is at least a strong theory so I can educate myself. I'm being serious here, because the way you normally answer/engage with me doesn't usually communicate what exactly it is you think I'm incorrect about, you just say that I am without much clarification sometimes. Please clarify it this time... or just ignore this, that's fine too.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » @Ace1234 Thank you for the summary. Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something. (there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly). Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe. What you say is false and you manipulate information lmao. You are not in the right and make false comparisons.
Azherae wrote: » @Ace1234 Thank you for the summary. Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something. (there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly). Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » @Ace1234 Thank you for the summary. Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something. (there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly). Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe. What you say is false and you manipulate information lmao. You are not in the right and make false comparisons. I'm glad to revisit whatever the last false thing I said was, if you point it out for me. Note that it would need to be something that isn't just your opinion on how something works. If it is generally your opinion, please back it up with some other thing that is at least a strong theory so I can educate myself. I'm being serious here, because the way you normally answer/engage with me doesn't usually communicate what exactly it is you think I'm incorrect about, you just say that I am without much clarification sometimes. Please clarify it this time... or just ignore this, that's fine too. I'm being very serious as well, you try to make false comparisons at what you believe is right and take it as fact. You tried to argue about tacking akin to fighting games like that is a reason for trackers on "enhancing the experience". You try to talk like without it there are certain things you can't do when that is false in itself. Through experience you learn and understand the game, and skill will allow you to understand how to take on challenges and counter moves people do. You don't need to sit there looking at frames all day that isnt going to make you a better player. You are putting other information in this conversation trying to say "This has that so it means trackers can do everything" While missing the point I keep making. Skill is better, skill means there is les emphasis on trackers because the gameplay will be different then playing a tab target mmorpg where you stand in one spot and blow up a boss. You jump in to these conversations with a bias thinking you are simply right, and everyone else is wrong, and make false comparisons to attempt to prove your point or make up weird things in your head. That's why I asked you before about that specific situation where you can tell the difference between four Active Frames and five Active Frames, because that IS a situation where afaik normal humans can't tell the difference, but the difference is important. I want to understand your perspective on that scenario, because that scenario is real. We already have gone over this you should know the moves on your character and or able to figure out in fights the speed of which skill you need to use.... Yes I understand that you believe that, and I'm asking you just one thing. I can make it so that when you block, SOMETIMES you should use your fastest move to defend yourself, and sometimes you should not use it or I will be guaranteed to do 1/3 of your health in damage, and the only way you will know which of those things happened is if you can somehow figure out which Active Frame of MY move hit, within 1/3 of a second. I would like to understand how YOU do this, and how you believe a person is supposed to do this. Remember, I, the attacker, am controlling which thing happens in some VERY subtle way. If you would like a video I can provide it. Or to rephrase it as a multiple choice question if you will humor me, here are the answers I can think of: a) That is impossible to do, for the attacker, because that's not how fighting games work. (this is the trick answer, don't pick this one, because I can prove it is how they work) b) That is bad design if the attacker can ever do this in an ambiguous way c) People can just tell one frame difference at the moment it happens d) I have never played a game like that and I would need to think about it more e) Other (Please Specify) I don't wanna derail here, but you keep saying I'm manipulative or dishonest and I would like to clear THAT up with you at least.
Mag7spy wrote: » This has nothing to do with trackers in mmorpgs with the information you get from them. This is a false comparison as I've said again and again. But you don't care you need to try to rework things in how you want, which is not reality.
Neurath wrote: » I haven't seen any combat in Ashes which requires frame to frame fighting. There's no synergies, no directional attacks and no active block last I saw. There certainly is no complexity in anything shown so far. Even the pve bosses have been tank and spank.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » This has nothing to do with trackers in mmorpgs with the information you get from them. This is a false comparison as I've said again and again. But you don't care you need to try to rework things in how you want, which is not reality. I agree that it's a false comparison up to a point, so let me ask you this instead. If Ashes is supposed to be Action Combat skill, and it starts to matter in Ashes because of how action Combat works (it matters in BDO, the community has been arguing about the frame data for Sorceress for years) will you have the same perspective on frame data readers as on Trackers? This is the thing I'm trying to understand. Action Combat means that you need MORE frame data information and less Combat Tracker information, but it does not change the problem, unless you think frame data readers are fine because they somehow require more skill to use than trackers.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » This has nothing to do with trackers in mmorpgs with the information you get from them. This is a false comparison as I've said again and again. But you don't care you need to try to rework things in how you want, which is not reality. I agree that it's a false comparison up to a point, so let me ask you this instead. If Ashes is supposed to be Action Combat skill, and it starts to matter in Ashes because of how action Combat works (it matters in BDO, the community has been arguing about the frame data for Sorceress for years) will you have the same perspective on frame data readers as on Trackers? This is the thing I'm trying to understand. Action Combat means that you need MORE frame data information and less Combat Tracker information, but it does not change the problem, unless you think frame data readers are fine because they somehow require more skill to use than trackers. I honestly don't care about frame data at all or who has access to it that is fine to me. Unsure what you are trying to get at here... I have a issue when you are using trackers to read all information about skills and abilities from mobs and other players in form of a tracker which is beyond a combat log. Two different things all together to me. Also Sorceress is stupid no class (game) needs iframes like that remove them. That isn't a fight.
Neurath wrote: » I doubt it'll be more frame heavy than BDO. A back dash means nothing against a ranged toon. Active block could mean nothing in a massed battle. Until I see complexity I won't consider frame to frame fighting to be needed at all. I wont rate active block until I see Bard and see the buffs. The last active block was a wall conjured by the tank class and that did sweet fuck all. Admittedly, it went against Mage levitate which has since been removed.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » This has nothing to do with trackers in mmorpgs with the information you get from them. This is a false comparison as I've said again and again. But you don't care you need to try to rework things in how you want, which is not reality. I agree that it's a false comparison up to a point, so let me ask you this instead. If Ashes is supposed to be Action Combat skill, and it starts to matter in Ashes because of how action Combat works (it matters in BDO, the community has been arguing about the frame data for Sorceress for years) will you have the same perspective on frame data readers as on Trackers? This is the thing I'm trying to understand. Action Combat means that you need MORE frame data information and less Combat Tracker information, but it does not change the problem, unless you think frame data readers are fine because they somehow require more skill to use than trackers. I honestly don't care about frame data at all or who has access to it that is fine to me. Unsure what you are trying to get at here... I have a issue when you are using trackers to read all information about skills and abilities from mobs and other players in form of a tracker which is beyond a combat log. Two different things all together to me. Also Sorceress is stupid no class (game) needs iframes like that remove them. That isn't a fight. Ok, now I completely concede that I understand your points all this time. If you don't care about people having Frame Data in Ashes, then what you have been saying is completely consistent and I apologize for every time I have derailed you from representing your perspective with my insistence on trying to equate your dislike of Trackers with a dislike of 'information that players use to improve their combat after the fact'. I know you don't care if I'm cool with you or not, but I promise to bother you less, now that I know this.
Mag7spy wrote: » Also to the fighting game point with frames and such what I mean with experience with oen such example being. When I've had a fight (Previous soul calibur or maybe the one before that one) where you realized in that very game and very moment you KNOW aren't going to win after one or two rounds as you are or playing at that very moment. And through understanding of the game and understanding someone more skilled (even if you aren't fully aware of the exact frames of your moves) to be able to change your play style, use all moves in your kit at the right time and be able to beat them. Unsure if you have experienced moments like that against people that don't feel like normal type players in the slightest. And being able to skillfully pull out a win and become better than you were instantly. Random but i guess that is my tangent on that kind of frame stuff why sure knowing frames can help but there is still more to it then just knowing frame numbers in a battle, or being able to feel it and what you need to do to overcome their pressure.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Also to the fighting game point with frames and such what I mean with experience with oen such example being. When I've had a fight (Previous soul calibur or maybe the one before that one) where you realized in that very game and very moment you KNOW aren't going to win after one or two rounds as you are or playing at that very moment. And through understanding of the game and understanding someone more skilled (even if you aren't fully aware of the exact frames of your moves) to be able to change your play style, use all moves in your kit at the right time and be able to beat them. Unsure if you have experienced moments like that against people that don't feel like normal type players in the slightest. And being able to skillfully pull out a win and become better than you were instantly. Random but i guess that is my tangent on that kind of frame stuff why sure knowing frames can help but there is still more to it then just knowing frame numbers in a battle, or being able to feel it and what you need to do to overcome their pressure. Normally I expect you to discredit or say I'm not skilled so I don't talk about this, since I don't want to get into an argument with you about it. I am the type of skilled player who has reached the point where she can mostly only improve by knowing the Frame Data (either through experimentation or directly using the things provided by Training mode to check it). Yes, there is 'more to it', but my experience is that you do reach a point where you have to know in order to see more options or you're just guessing. If you believe that it's better for people to just guess, I understand your perspective. I don't think they make Fighting Games like that anymore, but I'm not going to say 'no, you're wrong'. I think I've been trying to tell you that good PvE feels like that too, but I understand your reasons for not believing me about that.
Mag7spy wrote: » I have a issue when you are using trackers to read all information about skills and abilities from mobs and other players in form of a tracker which is beyond a combat log.
Mag7spy wrote: » Random but i guess that is my tangent on that kind of frame stuff why sure knowing frames can help but there is still more to it then just knowing frame numbers in a battle, or being able to feel it and what you need to do to overcome their pressure.
Azherae wrote: » Bots are stopped by creating layered scenarios where they must anticipate a probabilistic sequence without sufficient training data. These days, that's the only way.
Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Btw, I came up with the perfect anti-tracker design! No stats! Only block and counter abilities, but on a huge variety scale. I imagined it as "rune-based". Mobs/bosses would have these kinds of circles on them And players' abilities would be able to remove a single rune from the circle. The mob would die once the full circle is gone (bosses would have multiple). Augments would add half a rune onto abilities and gear would add a half too (each piece its own). Half runes would be applied the same way a whole one would, so synergies between classes and gear builds would work just fine. Tanks would be putting protective runes on people (cause mob/boss atks' have their own rune sets). Bards would be creating buff rune sets (against environment hazards, auras, adds, etc) and would conjure anti-sets to prevent rune regeneration on targets. Clerics would refresh those buffs to keep everyone alive. DPS classes would have different sets of runes on their abilities, so you'd have good and bad matchups with different mobs (which could then be countered by augments and gear builds). Mobs would also regen their stuff at different speeds and have different amounts of particular sets, so the matchups could potentially be impossible for some raid setups. The same rules would apply in pvp. Except the RPS balancing for classes would be even more pronounced, but also better countered by builds. Gear would be purely horizontal because of that and crafter would be able to add custom runes too. In other words, the only things that would have to be changed in the game is the stats and this addition of runes. PvE would just be a visual puzzle, with no combat log feedback, so it and any trackers that might use it would be useless. I look forward to your feedback on this definitely amazing idea, which I will read when I wake up And if there is in fact a way to utilize a tracker in that kind of system, I'd be glad to hear how (mainly so I could come up with a counter to that method ). I already have a tracker for this type. This is how the other FaceBook game I mentioned that I actually DID 'bot' worked mostly. If the player can see the runes, my code can see it. If the code can see it, problem solved. This would be moreso 'bottable' than 'parseable'. lmk if you would like a code snippet.
NiKr wrote: » Btw, I came up with the perfect anti-tracker design! No stats! Only block and counter abilities, but on a huge variety scale. I imagined it as "rune-based". Mobs/bosses would have these kinds of circles on them And players' abilities would be able to remove a single rune from the circle. The mob would die once the full circle is gone (bosses would have multiple). Augments would add half a rune onto abilities and gear would add a half too (each piece its own). Half runes would be applied the same way a whole one would, so synergies between classes and gear builds would work just fine. Tanks would be putting protective runes on people (cause mob/boss atks' have their own rune sets). Bards would be creating buff rune sets (against environment hazards, auras, adds, etc) and would conjure anti-sets to prevent rune regeneration on targets. Clerics would refresh those buffs to keep everyone alive. DPS classes would have different sets of runes on their abilities, so you'd have good and bad matchups with different mobs (which could then be countered by augments and gear builds). Mobs would also regen their stuff at different speeds and have different amounts of particular sets, so the matchups could potentially be impossible for some raid setups. The same rules would apply in pvp. Except the RPS balancing for classes would be even more pronounced, but also better countered by builds. Gear would be purely horizontal because of that and crafter would be able to add custom runes too. In other words, the only things that would have to be changed in the game is the stats and this addition of runes. PvE would just be a visual puzzle, with no combat log feedback, so it and any trackers that might use it would be useless. I look forward to your feedback on this definitely amazing idea, which I will read when I wake up And if there is in fact a way to utilize a tracker in that kind of system, I'd be glad to hear how (mainly so I could come up with a counter to that method ).
NiKr wrote: » Orrrrr, would pro-active actions work? As in, "players have to hit the boss with particular abilities which will result in one of several responses from the boss, which then determine what players gotta do next".
