ariatras wrote: » I really don't like to be -that- person. But this has always been the case. Some people didn't have the time. If 30 minutes is 1/4 to 1/2 your playing time, And travel is a part of the game (not to mention dungeon delving) If you ask me, and I would assume the majority of the MMO playerbase, a large world is important. Players are like locusts, they consume content at incredible rates. If travel is made too fast, the world will feel too small and ultimately fake. And so, maybe, you've outgrown MMOs. Which is fine. You can still play, there is plenty of things to do nearby you don't have to travel from one side of the continent to the next. Even if you want to, you can just see it as an adventure, as there will be stuff to do, to see, and to explore on the way there. But please, don't try and let your lack available playtime effect the game for others, adjust expectations instead.
perryuppal wrote: » With that in mind, it is completely understandable and expected that hardcore players still be accomodated. Of course, there will be content that is strictly geared to that playerbase, which is perfectly fine. There SHOULD be content that only the top X% of players can do and content that the hardcore grinders want to do. Games need hardcore players as well as casual players to thrive. The problem being discussed, however, is part of the core gameplay loop that every player will experience. Once casual players like the average video game player sees how much of a percentage of their play time is dedicated solely to traveling and not engaging in content, they very likely will leave. In addition, potential new players that see how much of a slog they have ahead of them will cancel their subscription after a month or so.
NiKr wrote: » This is a different style of game, targeted at a particular audience. Will that audience be way smaller than smth like WoW or FF14 have? Of course. Do Steven and Intrepid know that and still continue to develop the game in that manner? Also of course. And this is why people on this forum (who're here exactly because they support the current vision of the game) are against your suggestion.
perryuppal wrote: » I'll reiterate my earlier point: without a casual playerbase, MMOs die. Plain and simple.
perryuppal wrote: » You would be hard pressed to sit there and tell me he and the team plan on creating a game that isn't going to earn back that money and then some.
perryuppal wrote: » I think the bigger picture to look at here is this: A very large percentage of the video game player base falls between 18-35, with a good chunk of that group skewing more toward 33*. Now think about that for a moment. In your late 20s and early 30s, what life changes are you going through? You're likely done with school and in an established career, potentially thinking of marriage and/or having kids. Do you believe this group of players will have hours to spend daily playing a video game? No, but that does not stop them from trying to play whenever they can. Thus, the primary goal of the game should be to have reasonable travel times for most content by simply making travel between nodes/metropolises faster. Imagine this: You've been working all day and come home. You want to unwind a bit by doing what you enjoy. You load up Ashes of Creation and you want to go do something that happens to be on another continent. Travelling there will take you 35-40 minutes of real time, but you need to start getting ready for bed in 2 hours or so. Place yourself in this person's shoes. Do you believe that player will necessarily WANT to spend a good chunk of their time traveling? Very likely not. So what does a player in this situation do? They probably cancel their subscription and move on to a game that respects their time. I appreciate and understand that you as a person may have more free time in your day-to-day life, but try to see the game from another person's perspective. It's very easy to simply tell people "wElL tHiS gAmE iSn'T mEaNt FoR yOu," but take a look at the MMO genre as a whole; it is perhaps one of the least popular genres of games currently available and has been on a downward trend for at least a decade now. Telling people they can simply leave if they don't like it is what stunts MMO growth. Only pandering to the hardcore group is a surefire way to make sure Ashes of Creation suffers a similar fate to all the other MMOs that claim to be for "harcore gamers." With that in mind, it is completely understandable and expected that hardcore players still be accomodated. Of course, there will be content that is strictly geared to that playerbase, which is perfectly fine. There SHOULD be content that only the top X% of players can do and content that the hardcore grinders want to do. Games need hardcore players as well as casual players to thrive. The problem being discussed, however, is part of the core gameplay loop that every player will experience. Once casual players like the average video game player sees how much of a percentage of their play time is dedicated solely to traveling and not engaging in content, they very likely will leave. In addition, potential new players that see how much of a slog they have ahead of them will cancel their subscription after a month or so. The state of this game ultimately relies heavily on how well they can intermingle travel time with actual content players wish to engage in. With not enough interesting or worthwhile content to do as you travel throughout your own continent/other continents, players very likely will move on from Ashes. *https://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/2019-Essential-Facts-About-the-Computer-and-Video-Game-Industry.pdf *https://www.theesa.com/resource/2022-essential-facts-about-the-video-game-industry/
perryuppal wrote: » ariatras wrote: » I really don't like to be -that- person. But this has always been the case. Some people didn't have the time. If 30 minutes is 1/4 to 1/2 your playing time, And travel is a part of the game (not to mention dungeon delving) If you ask me, and I would assume the majority of the MMO playerbase, a large world is important. Players are like locusts, they consume content at incredible rates. If travel is made too fast, the world will feel too small and ultimately fake. And so, maybe, you've outgrown MMOs. Which is fine. You can still play, there is plenty of things to do nearby you don't have to travel from one side of the continent to the next. Even if you want to, you can just see it as an adventure, as there will be stuff to do, to see, and to explore on the way there. But please, don't try and let your lack available playtime effect the game for others, adjust expectations instead. I think the bigger picture to look at here is this: A very large percentage of the video game player base falls between 18-35, with a good chunk of that group skewing more toward 33*. Now think about that for a moment. In your late 20s and early 30s, what life changes are you going through? You're likely done with school and in an established career, potentially thinking of marriage and/or having kids. Do you believe this group of players will have hours to spend daily playing a video game? No, but that does not stop them from trying to play whenever they can. Thus, the primary goal of the game should be to have reasonable travel times for most content by simply making travel between nodes/metropolises faster. Imagine this: You've been working all day and come home. You want to unwind a bit by doing what you enjoy. You load up Ashes of Creation and you want to go do something that happens to be on another continent. Travelling there will take you 35-40 minutes of real time, but you need to start getting ready for bed in 2 hours or so. Place yourself in this person's shoes. Do you believe that player will necessarily WANT to spend a good chunk of their time traveling? Very likely not. So what does a player in this situation do? They probably cancel their subscription and move on to a game that respects their time. I appreciate and understand that you as a person may have more free time in your day-to-day life, but try to see the game from another person's perspective. It's very easy to simply tell people "wElL tHiS gAmE iSn'T mEaNt FoR yOu," but take a look at the MMO genre as a whole; it is perhaps one of the least popular genres of games currently available and has been on a downward trend for at least a decade now. Telling people they can simply leave if they don't like it is what stunts MMO growth. Only pandering to the hardcore group is a surefire way to make sure Ashes of Creation suffers a similar fate to all the other MMOs that claim to be for "harcore gamers." With that in mind, it is completely understandable and expected that hardcore players still be accomodated. Of course, there will be content that is strictly geared to that playerbase, which is perfectly fine. There SHOULD be content that only the top X% of players can do and content that the hardcore grinders want to do. Games need hardcore players as well as casual players to thrive. The problem being discussed, however, is part of the core gameplay loop that every player will experience. Once casual players like the average video game player sees how much of a percentage of their play time is dedicated solely to traveling and not engaging in content, they very likely will leave. In addition, potential new players that see how much of a slog they have ahead of them will cancel their subscription after a month or so. The state of this game ultimately relies heavily on how well they can intermingle travel time with actual content players wish to engage in. With not enough interesting or worthwhile content to do as you travel throughout your own continent/other continents, players very likely will move on from Ashes. *https://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/2019-Essential-Facts-About-the-Computer-and-Video-Game-Industry.pdf *https://www.theesa.com/resource/2022-essential-facts-about-the-video-game-industry/
ariatras wrote: » U-huh, u-huh. And there are MMOs out there that cater to this. Ashes, however has repeatedly stated to have been influenced by older MMOs. The node of which you become a citizen will have plenty to do in terms of dungeons, and bosses. And if you want to go to the other end of the world. Don't think of the destination as the end all and be all. Instead try and advocate for a world in which the travel itself is the adventure. If you cater to those that can't commit time any of the seven days in a week, you trivialise the world, and might as well go the WoW route. You could pay for passage on a sea worthy vessel, maybe/preferably player/guild run transports, liable to getting attacked and all. As we already know ships will be a thing. Or land based caravans. Point is, you see travel as a chore, and that's the problem. Travel should be an adventure in and of itself. And trivialising it the way suggested cheapens the experience for everyone.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Yes good content is good. If movement through the game is interesting and fun then that can be content too though. I'd like to see more vertical terrain requiring parkour. . . risk of death included.
perryuppal wrote: » Right, this is the part that the current system relies heavily on, and what I'm afraid they won't be able to do. Just like games such as Rift and FF14, they have "world events," but they are largely ignored simply because there's no reason to interact with them excluding a few rare instances where a quest requires you to do so. It is incredibly difficult to create open-world content that doesn't quickly become useless and seen as a "waste of time" to bother interacting with, returning the player to a travel system with large gaps of nothing excluding trivial content that only serves as an incredibly minor distraction.
NiKr wrote: » perryuppal wrote: » You would be hard pressed to sit there and tell me he and the team plan on creating a game that isn't going to earn back that money and then some. I wouldn't be. Steven repeats it every other stream "Ashes is not for everyone".
perryuppal wrote: » Do you know why the subscription model has all but died off and the majority of new MMOs opt for f2p with cash shops? Because f2p with cash shop models for games are significantly more profitable. Paying to host servers is not cheap, and making an MMO that caters to a niche audience of a niche audience is a surefire way to make sure you cannot afford the overhead.
NiKr wrote: » perryuppal wrote: » Do you know why the subscription model has all but died off and the majority of new MMOs opt for f2p with cash shops? Because f2p with cash shop models for games are significantly more profitable. Paying to host servers is not cheap, and making an MMO that caters to a niche audience of a niche audience is a surefire way to make sure you cannot afford the overhead. Oh right, that's yet another "anti-popular" feature of the game. In other words, literally most of the game's design and features are targeted at a much smaller audience than you want it to be. The game has been in development for over 5 years now. And in that time one of the biggest changes has been the latest open seas change that made the game even more niche. So, unless you're trying to call Steven and all of Intrepid stupid, I'd assume you can see that they know what they're doing and what results those actions might lead to.
OnyStyle wrote: » Even with my proposed metropolis only airship system there would be the entirety of the over world to explore. And would still be explored because content is still scattered throughout the world.
perryuppal wrote: » ariatras wrote: » U-huh, u-huh. And there are MMOs out there that cater to this. Ashes, however has repeatedly stated to have been influenced by older MMOs. The node of which you become a citizen will have plenty to do in terms of dungeons, and bosses. And if you want to go to the other end of the world. Don't think of the destination as the end all and be all. Instead try and advocate for a world in which the travel itself is the adventure. If you cater to those that can't commit time any of the seven days in a week, you trivialise the world, and might as well go the WoW route. You could pay for passage on a sea worthy vessel, maybe/preferably player/guild run transports, liable to getting attacked and all. As we already know ships will be a thing. Or land based caravans. Point is, you see travel as a chore, and that's the problem. Travel should be an adventure in and of itself. And trivialising it the way suggested cheapens the experience for everyone. Remind me again how a simple expansion of transport availability between nodes "trivializes travel"? The entire purpose is to cut out the fluff of having to run endlessly between nodes. You would still have to run from the node to the actual content out in the world To counter your point that the game is influenced by older MMOs, that's perfectly fine. Being influenced by MMOs is one thing; adopting archaic mechanics for the sake of "remember the old days guys? ahuehua" is pretty bad design. I remember when Old School Runescape decided it would not include the grand exchange and trading would be done "just like the good ol' days." I think the novelty of it wore off within a few weeks before third party sites created their own versions of the grand exchange because people didn't want to spend 2 hours in game spamming "wave:flash: selling raw tuna 300gp ea ~~~l33tsk1ll~~~". This eventually led to an auto-chat feature being implemented and the ultimate reintroduction of the grand exchange. Old systems can be interesting, but they need to be implemented in modern, refreshed ways or else the nostalgia will wear off and people will loathe the mechanic.
Sapiverenus wrote: » PvP is one of the biggest gameplay dynamics around.
Noaani wrote: » Not in MMO's it isnt. Its third, behind PvE and crafting/gathering. Yes, more people spend more time crafting and gathering in MMO's than they spend PvP'ing.
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » PvP is one of the biggest gameplay dynamics around. Not in MMO's it isnt. Its third, behind PvE and crafting/gathering. Yes, more people spend more time crafting and gathering in MMO's than they spend PvP'ing.
