Mag7spy wrote: » Example being some people wanting no global chat to reduce socialization options between people which makes 0 senses.
Mag7spy wrote: » perryuppal wrote: » ariatras wrote: » U-huh, u-huh. And there are MMOs out there that cater to this. Ashes, however has repeatedly stated to have been influenced by older MMOs. The node of which you become a citizen will have plenty to do in terms of dungeons, and bosses. And if you want to go to the other end of the world. Don't think of the destination as the end all and be all. Instead try and advocate for a world in which the travel itself is the adventure. If you cater to those that can't commit time any of the seven days in a week, you trivialise the world, and might as well go the WoW route. You could pay for passage on a sea worthy vessel, maybe/preferably player/guild run transports, liable to getting attacked and all. As we already know ships will be a thing. Or land based caravans. Point is, you see travel as a chore, and that's the problem. Travel should be an adventure in and of itself. And trivialising it the way suggested cheapens the experience for everyone. Remind me again how a simple expansion of transport availability between nodes "trivializes travel"? The entire purpose is to cut out the fluff of having to run endlessly between nodes. You would still have to run from the node to the actual content out in the world To counter your point that the game is influenced by older MMOs, that's perfectly fine. Being influenced by MMOs is one thing; adopting archaic mechanics for the sake of "remember the old days guys? ahuehua" is pretty bad design. I remember when Old School Runescape decided it would not include the grand exchange and trading would be done "just like the good ol' days." I think the novelty of it wore off within a few weeks before third party sites created their own versions of the grand exchange because people didn't want to spend 2 hours in game spamming "wave:flash: selling raw tuna 300gp ea ~~~l33tsk1ll~~~". This eventually led to an auto-chat feature being implemented and the ultimate reintroduction of the grand exchange. Old systems can be interesting, but they need to be implemented in modern, refreshed ways or else the nostalgia will wear off and people will loathe the mechanic. You are right to an extend on some of people wanting this to be extremely old or worst just for reduced fun experience. Example being some people wanting no global chat to reduce socialization options between people which makes 0 senses.
perryuppal wrote: » ariatras wrote: » U-huh, u-huh. And there are MMOs out there that cater to this. Ashes, however has repeatedly stated to have been influenced by older MMOs. The node of which you become a citizen will have plenty to do in terms of dungeons, and bosses. And if you want to go to the other end of the world. Don't think of the destination as the end all and be all. Instead try and advocate for a world in which the travel itself is the adventure. If you cater to those that can't commit time any of the seven days in a week, you trivialise the world, and might as well go the WoW route. You could pay for passage on a sea worthy vessel, maybe/preferably player/guild run transports, liable to getting attacked and all. As we already know ships will be a thing. Or land based caravans. Point is, you see travel as a chore, and that's the problem. Travel should be an adventure in and of itself. And trivialising it the way suggested cheapens the experience for everyone. Remind me again how a simple expansion of transport availability between nodes "trivializes travel"? The entire purpose is to cut out the fluff of having to run endlessly between nodes. You would still have to run from the node to the actual content out in the world To counter your point that the game is influenced by older MMOs, that's perfectly fine. Being influenced by MMOs is one thing; adopting archaic mechanics for the sake of "remember the old days guys? ahuehua" is pretty bad design. I remember when Old School Runescape decided it would not include the grand exchange and trading would be done "just like the good ol' days." I think the novelty of it wore off within a few weeks before third party sites created their own versions of the grand exchange because people didn't want to spend 2 hours in game spamming "wave:flash: selling raw tuna 300gp ea ~~~l33tsk1ll~~~". This eventually led to an auto-chat feature being implemented and the ultimate reintroduction of the grand exchange. Old systems can be interesting, but they need to be implemented in modern, refreshed ways or else the nostalgia will wear off and people will loathe the mechanic.
ariatras wrote: » U-huh, u-huh. And there are MMOs out there that cater to this. Ashes, however has repeatedly stated to have been influenced by older MMOs. The node of which you become a citizen will have plenty to do in terms of dungeons, and bosses. And if you want to go to the other end of the world. Don't think of the destination as the end all and be all. Instead try and advocate for a world in which the travel itself is the adventure. If you cater to those that can't commit time any of the seven days in a week, you trivialise the world, and might as well go the WoW route. You could pay for passage on a sea worthy vessel, maybe/preferably player/guild run transports, liable to getting attacked and all. As we already know ships will be a thing. Or land based caravans. Point is, you see travel as a chore, and that's the problem. Travel should be an adventure in and of itself. And trivialising it the way suggested cheapens the experience for everyone.
Neurath wrote: » No global chat will make zergs easier. Takes longer for news to travel.
Neurath wrote: » Without global chat it means we must wait for zergs to reach us rather than finding a zerg to fight.
NiKr wrote: » perryuppal wrote: » With that in mind, it is completely understandable and expected that hardcore players still be accomodated. Of course, there will be content that is strictly geared to that playerbase, which is perfectly fine. There SHOULD be content that only the top X% of players can do and content that the hardcore grinders want to do. Games need hardcore players as well as casual players to thrive. The problem being discussed, however, is part of the core gameplay loop that every player will experience. Once casual players like the average video game player sees how much of a percentage of their play time is dedicated solely to traveling and not engaging in content, they very likely will leave. In addition, potential new players that see how much of a slog they have ahead of them will cancel their subscription after a month or so. You know that this game is owpvp, right? So in that context you gotta realize that your suggestion of "anyone can reach any place on the map within 20 minutes" will just mean that any zerg or strong group of players will be able to go to the same places you want to go to, except they can just run over you and your friends and you'll never experience that content in the first place. While with meaningful travel time, your local node might have good content (or you moved to a node with one) and there's only one or two local strong groups that can farm that place instead of 20 from the entire server. And if you're talking about casual content, that shit's supposed to be on every corner of the world due to how Node's progression and design works. The game is designed with a player anchor. Your node is your home and you're meant to work on its improvement. If all you do is just travel every day - your node will die off. At which point you've failed at the most important part of the game, because you were too selfish and wanted to farm your own content instead of what your node (or the vassal system that you live in) presented you with. This is a different style of game, targeted at a particular audience. Will that audience be way smaller than smth like WoW or FF14 have? Of course. Do Steven and Intrepid know that and still continue to develop the game in that manner? Also of course. And this is why people on this forum (who're here exactly because they support the current vision of the game) are against your suggestion.
perryuppal wrote: » With that in mind, it is completely understandable and expected that hardcore players still be accomodated. Of course, there will be content that is strictly geared to that playerbase, which is perfectly fine. There SHOULD be content that only the top X% of players can do and content that the hardcore grinders want to do. Games need hardcore players as well as casual players to thrive. The problem being discussed, however, is part of the core gameplay loop that every player will experience. Once casual players like the average video game player sees how much of a percentage of their play time is dedicated solely to traveling and not engaging in content, they very likely will leave. In addition, potential new players that see how much of a slog they have ahead of them will cancel their subscription after a month or so.
JROCthaGreat wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » PvP is one of the biggest gameplay dynamics around. Not in MMO's it isnt. Its third, behind PvE and crafting/gathering. Yes, more people spend more time crafting and gathering in MMO's than they spend PvP'ing. This may be true, it depends from game to game, but I could easily argue that MMO's as hold not being able to properly integrate reasonable PvP game loops into their games is why most fail. You need replayable loops and PvE and Crafting no matter how great, are not replayable loops. For AoC to be successful it all needs to work. But as far as the OP goes, the map seems crazy big, but in reality, with the airships and the server caps it will be very alive and manageable, it's a non issue.
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » PvP is one of the biggest gameplay dynamics around. Not in MMO's it isnt. Its third, behind PvE and crafting/gathering. Yes, more people spend more time crafting and gathering in MMO's than they spend PvP'ing.
Sapiverenus wrote: » PvP is one of the biggest gameplay dynamics around.
OnyStyle wrote: » NiKr wrote: » perryuppal wrote: » With that in mind, it is completely understandable and expected that hardcore players still be accomodated. Of course, there will be content that is strictly geared to that playerbase, which is perfectly fine. There SHOULD be content that only the top X% of players can do and content that the hardcore grinders want to do. Games need hardcore players as well as casual players to thrive. The problem being discussed, however, is part of the core gameplay loop that every player will experience. Once casual players like the average video game player sees how much of a percentage of their play time is dedicated solely to traveling and not engaging in content, they very likely will leave. In addition, potential new players that see how much of a slog they have ahead of them will cancel their subscription after a month or so. You know that this game is owpvp, right? So in that context you gotta realize that your suggestion of "anyone can reach any place on the map within 20 minutes" will just mean that any zerg or strong group of players will be able to go to the same places you want to go to, except they can just run over you and your friends and you'll never experience that content in the first place. While with meaningful travel time, your local node might have good content (or you moved to a node with one) and there's only one or two local strong groups that can farm that place instead of 20 from the entire server. And if you're talking about casual content, that shit's supposed to be on every corner of the world due to how Node's progression and design works. The game is designed with a player anchor. Your node is your home and you're meant to work on its improvement. If all you do is just travel every day - your node will die off. At which point you've failed at the most important part of the game, because you were too selfish and wanted to farm your own content instead of what your node (or the vassal system that you live in) presented you with. This is a different style of game, targeted at a particular audience. Will that audience be way smaller than smth like WoW or FF14 have? Of course. Do Steven and Intrepid know that and still continue to develop the game in that manner? Also of course. And this is why people on this forum (who're here exactly because they support the current vision of the game) are against your suggestion. Traveling between large distances makes battling zergs easier. In fact, if travel remains super slow, then zergs will be near unstoppable. Bounty hunters may not be bountiful enough in that area to battle them. It would be trivial to get a large group of players in an area and start hobo killing. And because of how difficult it is to travel large distances, it would be difficult to go fight against. I am unsure you realize how long 20 minutes is. 20 minutes is a long time for a lot of people. I think @ariatras has explained it best. The average player is older. The reality is, you will not be staying within your nodes zone of influence (zoi) for 100% of the time. You say it is selfish to travel outside of your nodes zone of influence, but that is simply false. There are plenty of reasons one may need to travel outside of one's node. Gathering resources that can't be gotten in your own node, running out of quests within your own node, fighting other nodes bosses for crafting materials, checking out prices on other nodes markets, etc etc. Finally, if you think Steven is like "Yeah, I want to make an MMO that is less popular than WoW and ff14" you are mistaken. While he understands that not everyone will enjoy all of the content, he also has said repeatedly that he wants there to be enjoyable content for everyone. Pvp is important but if you don't like pvp, there is STILL a place for those people with the awesome raid system. Don't like pve? That's okay too because the pvp system is expansive! Want to rp? They are targeting that audience too! Steven's goal is quite literally the rebirth of the mmorpg genre.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Example being some people wanting no global chat to reduce socialization options between people which makes 0 senses. I don't want global chat because it'd be pointless. The sense of node-based community gets diluted because you can instead talk to the other 9.5k+ people on the server. The sheer spam of such a chat would be insane. And there'd be no functional use for that chat because you can't just go and party up with someone from the other continent. It's about "people don't know what they want, even if they say they do". Making people socialize with a smaller local group would lead to a better feeling of community and would provide each player with connections to the people who play within the same location, so if you ever need help with something - you'd already know who to talk to and would be able to get to them quicker.
Aerlana wrote: » oh sure people will sometime travel elsewhere for various reason. but the game is designed around this as a problematic and not a common basic decision. Choices matters. If you are fare, it will be harder to intercept zerg movement. but also, while you move elsewhere you are a better place to get information from this specific "elsewhere (spy) you share with guildmate. For the "hobo killing in a edefined area" while global chat is a really big discussion with lot of people on both side there is another thing : node chat. (which would need to know exactly how it works... which node because some node can be in ZOI of others, etc)... for such situation it could be a solution... "hey, the [guild] are killing everything [localisation] please help" and people from various guild will share with other (even not logged in) people gather, big fight. here we go.
OnyStyle wrote: » @Natasha Yes. I will be slower. I would be slower even with faster travel time. So what?
Natasha wrote: » OnyStyle wrote: » @Natasha Yes. I will be slower. I would be slower even with faster travel time. So what? But its not the developers issue or every other players issue that it'll take them longer. Its on the casual players to understand that they're the one who has added their own handicap.
OnyStyle wrote: » Natasha wrote: » OnyStyle wrote: » @Natasha Yes. I will be slower. I would be slower even with faster travel time. So what? But its not the developers issue or every other players issue that it'll take them longer. Its on the casual players to understand that they're the one who has added their own handicap. Actually, that is exactly their job. MMOs die without appealing to people with limited amounts of time. It sounds to me you want the game to appeal to 5% hardcore player at the expense of the other 95%. If you want to spend 40 minutes traveling each way to go gathering, then you and I are going to fundamentally disagree on game design.
