Hou wrote: » Action combat, especially for PVP, feels much better. The PVP tab target is = TAB-1-2-3-4-5; TAB-1-2-3-4-5, ...you can't dodge/aim. I think it's a very simple system for a game that's going to be released in 2025+.
Liniker wrote: » Yes, you can, and you should.... games change their design all the time not making things client side even if it was better to be client side because of hackers there exist no anti-cheat in this planet that can catch good cheats - people get caught in professional eSports using it live.
iccer wrote: » Hou wrote: » Action combat, especially for PVP, feels much better. The PVP tab target is = TAB-1-2-3-4-5; TAB-1-2-3-4-5, ...you can't dodge/aim. I think it's a very simple system for a game that's going to be released in 2025+. I just don't understand this. Why do people that go on about action combat being superior, just make stuff up or use the extreme examples about tab-targeting. PvP tab target is absolutely not what you've said. You obviously CAN dodge in Ashes, there are/will be abilities that you have to aim even with the tab-targeting style. The fact that you're trying to suggest that you just use a rotation in PvP, makes me think you either don't know what you're talking about, or that you are being malicious, just to make action combat look superior in any way possible. From reacting to enemies, either with movement or abilities (dodges, movement abilities, using certain defensive abilities, heals/barriers, blocks, etc.), to actually trying to catch and kill enemies with cc, debuffs/status effects, etc. it's much more complex and engaging than "TAB-1-2-3-4-5; TAB-1-2-3-4-5, ...you can't dodge/aim.". I just ask Intrepid to ignore that sort of feedback, as people clearly don't know what they're talking about.
Hou wrote: » iccer wrote: » Hou wrote: » Action combat, especially for PVP, feels much better. The PVP tab target is = TAB-1-2-3-4-5; TAB-1-2-3-4-5, ...you can't dodge/aim. I think it's a very simple system for a game that's going to be released in 2025+. I just don't understand this. Why do people that go on about action combat being superior, just make stuff up or use the extreme examples about tab-targeting. PvP tab target is absolutely not what you've said. You obviously CAN dodge in Ashes, there are/will be abilities that you have to aim even with the tab-targeting style. The fact that you're trying to suggest that you just use a rotation in PvP, makes me think you either don't know what you're talking about, or that you are being malicious, just to make action combat look superior in any way possible. From reacting to enemies, either with movement or abilities (dodges, movement abilities, using certain defensive abilities, heals/barriers, blocks, etc.), to actually trying to catch and kill enemies with cc, debuffs/status effects, etc. it's much more complex and engaging than "TAB-1-2-3-4-5; TAB-1-2-3-4-5, ...you can't dodge/aim.". I just ask Intrepid to ignore that sort of feedback, as people clearly don't know what they're talking about. It's simple, in action combat you also do everything you've described, and you still need to pay attention to dodge/aim. That is just my opinion. For me, after playing MMOs for 18 years, going back to a target system (when I played wow), I don't like it.
iccer wrote: » Hou wrote: » iccer wrote: » Hou wrote: » Action combat, especially for PVP, feels much better. The PVP tab target is = TAB-1-2-3-4-5; TAB-1-2-3-4-5, ...you can't dodge/aim. I think it's a very simple system for a game that's going to be released in 2025+. I just don't understand this. Why do people that go on about action combat being superior, just make stuff up or use the extreme examples about tab-targeting. PvP tab target is absolutely not what you've said. You obviously CAN dodge in Ashes, there are/will be abilities that you have to aim even with the tab-targeting style. The fact that you're trying to suggest that you just use a rotation in PvP, makes me think you either don't know what you're talking about, or that you are being malicious, just to make action combat look superior in any way possible. From reacting to enemies, either with movement or abilities (dodges, movement abilities, using certain defensive abilities, heals/barriers, blocks, etc.), to actually trying to catch and kill enemies with cc, debuffs/status effects, etc. it's much more complex and engaging than "TAB-1-2-3-4-5; TAB-1-2-3-4-5, ...you can't dodge/aim.". I just ask Intrepid to ignore that sort of feedback, as people clearly don't know what they're talking about. It's simple, in action combat you also do everything you've described, and you still need to pay attention to dodge/aim. That is just my opinion. For me, after playing MMOs for 18 years, going back to a target system (when I played wow), I don't like it. But that's not what you argued. You put out an extremely simplified version, saying all you do in pvp is tab-1-2-3-4-5 without dodging or aiming. It's much, much more complex than that. Anyone that's suggesting tab targeting takes no skill is just being ignorant, that's all. It takes a different type of skill, even though you don't have to aim everything. Also I don't get the obsession with aiming. If you like aiming, play FPS games. Again, there are abilities that you will have to aim. They even showcased one in the livestream.
Magic Man wrote: » I honestly don't get why people are malding over other people's feedback. You provide your feedback, and they offer theirs. It just makes you look petty and purblind 🙄.
Hou wrote: » I respect that you don't like action combat. "Tab-1-2-3-4-5" is just to say that tab-target is a simple system compared to action combat. It's obvious that in PVP you don't do a skill rotation. In an action combat system you don't need AIM required in FPS. An FPS does not have everything that an MMO can offer. There are MMO games with action combat. You say: "Also I don't get the obsession with aiming. If you like aiming, play FPS games" . For me it is not correct.
Khron wrote: » I watched the whole stream and found it to be exceptionally good. The only thing that was kinda left undefined is the benefit of using action combat mode instead of tab targeting. Steven only mentioned the benefit of quick target acquiring in action mode. Players who use action mode should have a longer maximum range, and the ability to snipe down people who move outside the target lock range. That's the whole point of aiming instead of auto targeting. In close range combat, tab targeting is king. Arrows should not disappear when they fly beyond the limit of max distance tab targeting. Arrows should (depending on the type of bow and charge time) work like in real life (horizontal shot-physics). Giving multiple options is the best solution when people can't agree on a single best strategy or approach.
Liniker wrote: » Vaknar wrote: » Would you care to elaborate more on why you feel it was a 4/10? @Vaknar tbh this is the melee feedback thread all over again.... everyone saying it's bad and it's a 4/10 or 3/10 are just disappointed because they want a shitty New World combat full of aim botters and hackers, not much to elaborate there. The combat is Awesome, just don't listen to people that don't know what they want. Action MMORPGs ALWAYS have used soft locks, BDO, Tera, Blade e Soul, Elyon, Bless, Vindictus... there's absolutely no precision aim in any of those games, people just don't know what they are talking about... Ashes has projectiles and soft lock on the action basic attacks it's the same as every other action game (besides new world) and the argument of asking for "balance" on the Action BASIC ATTACKS giving incentives for the use of action is a Really bad idea - increase the action attacks damage or add headshots and this will be an aimbot and hacker shit show - plus it is impossible to balance it properly and will be a waste of time and effort, I hope intrepid keeps the current plan and don't go down that rabbit hole. We are 6 years into development and we are talking Basic Attacks, we need to move on, I think from the melee live stream with everyone crying about the action and now with the complaints about tab target it's clear that Intrepid just needs to pick something They want and move on, otherwise we gonna have 100 more reworks trying to make everyone happy and end up failing and making no one happy.
Vaknar wrote: » Would you care to elaborate more on why you feel it was a 4/10?
Mag7spy wrote: » Only reason people are suggesting auto attacks be tab target only because they want to remove skill elements from the game because other players will be better than them. And use gear or skill when it comes to beating someone Also anyone trying to say head shots and a mmorpg is not a fps is pretty much being disingenuous. Headshots is not in or not a focus in action games, nor does action combat make it a fps (spoken from people that don't play or understand action or fps games.). That is like saying dragons dogma, devil may cry, elden ring, assassin's creed are fps all the sudden.
Hasil wrote: » Liniker wrote: » increase the action attacks damage or add headshots and this will be an aimbot and hacker shit show You can't make game design decisions based on a fear of hackers. You just need to design and develop a good game with good anti-cheat and actively police the cheaters.
Liniker wrote: » increase the action attacks damage or add headshots and this will be an aimbot and hacker shit show
iccer wrote: » Liniker wrote: » Vaknar wrote: » Would you care to elaborate more on why you feel it was a 4/10? @Vaknar tbh this is the melee feedback thread all over again.... everyone saying it's bad and it's a 4/10 or 3/10 are just disappointed because they want a shitty New World combat full of aim botters and hackers, not much to elaborate there. The combat is Awesome, just don't listen to people that don't know what they want. Action MMORPGs ALWAYS have used soft locks, BDO, Tera, Blade e Soul, Elyon, Bless, Vindictus... there's absolutely no precision aim in any of those games, people just don't know what they are talking about... Ashes has projectiles and soft lock on the action basic attacks it's the same as every other action game (besides new world) and the argument of asking for "balance" on the Action BASIC ATTACKS giving incentives for the use of action is a Really bad idea - increase the action attacks damage or add headshots and this will be an aimbot and hacker shit show - plus it is impossible to balance it properly and will be a waste of time and effort, I hope intrepid keeps the current plan and don't go down that rabbit hole. We are 6 years into development and we are talking Basic Attacks, we need to move on, I think from the melee live stream with everyone crying about the action and now with the complaints about tab target it's clear that Intrepid just needs to pick something They want and move on, otherwise we gonna have 100 more reworks trying to make everyone happy and end up failing and making no one happy. I agree. People just want action combat at this point, I have no idea what made them think they were going in that direction. A lot of them are judging it based on BASIC ATTACKS, like we haven't even seen how the whole class kit plays like, but people judge it immediately, asking for more action combat stuff. The suggestions they come up with just make the game into an action combat game, instead of a hybrid. And I'd much rather have tab-target or hybrid, than action-combat, for numerous reasons. Like, you can shoot freely at anything you want, without having your target selected. Is it not enough? They won't make this game into an action-combat game, period. It would mean completely getting rid of tab-targeting stuff, and at this point in development, it's just not happening. Mag7spy wrote: » Only reason people are suggesting auto attacks be tab target only because they want to remove skill elements from the game because other players will be better than them. And use gear or skill when it comes to beating someone Also anyone trying to say head shots and a mmorpg is not a fps is pretty much being disingenuous. Headshots is not in or not a focus in action games, nor does action combat make it a fps (spoken from people that don't play or understand action or fps games.). That is like saying dragons dogma, devil may cry, elden ring, assassin's creed are fps all the sudden. Why do you people just keep making stuff up? What you've said in that first paragraph is simply not true at all. Ranged auto-attacks are literally both tab-target and action at this point, judging by the showcase. Which was the whole goal of hybrid combat. We have both tab-targeting, and action-combat style where you can aim anywhere you want and shoot at anything you want.
iccer wrote: » Khron wrote: » I watched the whole stream and found it to be exceptionally good. The only thing that was kinda left undefined is the benefit of using action combat mode instead of tab targeting. Steven only mentioned the benefit of quick target acquiring in action mode. Players who use action mode should have a longer maximum range, and the ability to snipe down people who move outside the target lock range. That's the whole point of aiming instead of auto targeting. In close range combat, tab targeting is king. Arrows should not disappear when they fly beyond the limit of max distance tab targeting. Arrows should (depending on the type of bow and charge time) work like in real life (horizontal shot-physics). Giving multiple options is the best solution when people can't agree on a single best strategy or approach. There shouldn't be any advantages like that, based on which type of combat you pick. Both should have the exact same damage, range, etc. It should be a matter of preference. I'd argue action is better for close range/melee combat.
Mag7spy wrote: » Only person making things up is you, most likely because you are worried about skill level of people that are good with action. If you are sitting on a field and moving around, one using tab other using action, the tab ill land every hit where action will not. It is clear who would have the advantage in a fight and win one to one and the larger effort required. Effectively game design wise you are saying you don't' care about effort/balanced required. And trying to put action combat in playing for fun but obsolete in a competitive sense. Only person making things up here is you.
Fatalmistake187 wrote: » Then you'll end up like GW2 and no one will use action for anything because auto hits on tab targeting system will trump using aim, if this is the case they should just stop saying it's a hybrid and just say it's a tab targeting system.
Mag7spy wrote: » Only reason people are suggesting auto attacks be tab target only because they want to remove skill elements from the game because other players will be better than them. And use gear or skill when it comes to beating someone Hey mate, rly annoying to see that you still havent tryed out a Tab target MMO but still continue posting inexperienced and one-sided comments about rating combat systems over its different levels of skill. Feel free to stop acting like a protozoa There are issues with action combat in MMOs that go beyond the "missing skill element" as you wanna describe it which would result in a bad game experience for everybody which again will result in a low playerpopulation.
Yep. But it still is a hybrid, not a tab-targeting system. I think you're misunderstanding what hybrid actually is, and therefore not managing your expectations correctly. I've touched upon it above.
Fatalmistake187 wrote: » Yep. But it still is a hybrid, not a tab-targeting system. I think you're misunderstanding what hybrid actually is, and therefore not managing your expectations correctly. I've touched upon it above. From what I understood you'd be able to play both and both would be competitive, I just see a tab targeting system with the ability to have a crosshair, so again, if this is the system they want to move forward with, just call it a tab targeting system and be done with it. What I was expecting was a action combat and a tab targeting system where action would get some advantage for having to use skill to aim, I don't think this is a bad trade off but considering this is supposed to be a huge pvp and hard core MMO compared to regular MMOs these days I thought there would be more emphasis on this.
iccer wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Only person making things up is you, most likely because you are worried about skill level of people that are good with action. If you are sitting on a field and moving around, one using tab other using action, the tab ill land every hit where action will not. It is clear who would have the advantage in a fight and win one to one and the larger effort required. Effectively game design wise you are saying you don't' care about effort/balanced required. And trying to put action combat in playing for fun but obsolete in a competitive sense. Only person making things up here is you. Please tell me what did I make up? I'm not the one throwing wild claims and assumptions about other people. But you are doing it yet again, now accusing me of making stuff up, without pointing out what it is that I made up. Your scenario with 2 people moving around in a field is such an useless example. You're assuming one only uses tab-target abilities, and the other is having to aim everything. That sort of scenario isn't the default, but an extreme. Again, people who use tab-targeting will still have some abilities that they will need to aim, be it ground target skills, or the skills that fire in the direction they're facing. Also, they've mentioned it numerous times, the game isn't going to be balanced around 1v1 play, so get over it. I really don't get this obsession with action-combat, I really don't. People seem to be obsessing so much over it, that they wont even see if the game is fun or not to play, but if it doesn't have action-combat they immediately think it's awful, boring, and that it doesn't take skill to play. In GW2 it's absolutely the case where you have action combat mode for immersion and gameplay preference purposes, but "normal" view is the way to go if you want to be competitive, because you can freely move the camera around your character, without changing the direction you're facing/attacking. I have no issues with that. It's a hybrid combat system, you have abilities that you have to aim, and you have abilities that require a target. If Intrepid manage to make both styles work, then great. If not, then it's gonna look like GW2 or ESO, which I have no problems with. You need to look at it this way, it's a hybrid combat system, with an action camera mode being optional. It's not, and probably never will be an action-combat game. You can't expect this game to have both full tab target, and full on action-combat at the same time. It's simply a nightmare to design, balance, and make both work at the same time. Fatalmistake187 wrote: » Then you'll end up like GW2 and no one will use action for anything because auto hits on tab targeting system will trump using aim, if this is the case they should just stop saying it's a hybrid and just say it's a tab targeting system. Yep. But it still is a hybrid, not a tab-targeting system. I think you're misunderstanding what hybrid actually is, and therefore not managing your expectations correctly. I've touched upon it above.
