Body Blocking Projectile Attacks While Green/With Mobs

Title says it all, I think?

What do we 'want' to happen here?

Can I block a Ranger's projectiles against a mage they are fighting? Not just a mage on my team. I mean 'if I got between Steven's Ranger and that Minotaur Shaman, can I make Steven lose this fight somehow?'

Any other cool ways you can think of to use this, whether Green or Purple? I don't expect mobs to do it, but perhaps we could use really complex positioning to get them to, like 'dumping mobs on a ranger by pulling them through their shot-lines' depending on how threat works.

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Ludullu

Imo it'd depend on how action flagging and fights between 2 purples will work.

If, when I press ctrl+f+atk on a basic action swing, I hit everyone in the cone of attack - I'd want arrows to work in the same way.

And then if we can hit purples/reds w/o that combination of buttons - I'd like arrows to fly through greens when I, as a purple, just do a general attack in some direction (be it mob or another purple/red).

In L2 you had to keep holding down ctrl (forced atk modifier) if you wanted to keep attacking a neutral player, while you didn't need to press it at all if you were attacking a purple/red. This added a bit more hassle to the process of becoming a red, while also making pvp easier.

In other words, I want it to be the same as L2. I know, shocker.

JustVine

As a summoner, I would certainly hope I could break line of sight with Rangers via my summons or other members. I think this probably necessitates that we be able to body block the minotaur in your scenario. Heck I hope I can use my summon to do this. After all if I am flanking an enemy with my summon I think the ranger should have to go through the summon to get to my prey. Maybe they could use a 'pierce' or movement ability to deal with it.

For balance reasons I think that its fine for a basic that was fired before I 'took cover' to hit me . I'm less certain about some of the other abilities.

Strevi

If I see a green player fighting with the Minotaur and I try to help him but he has 1 hit point and body blocks my arrow, I get corruption. Then he re-spawns and kills me and takes my bow. Then without weapon I get killed all the way back to town by all NPCs.

Azherae

Strevi wrote: »

If I see a green player fighting with the Minotaur and I try to help him but he has 1 hit point and body blocks my arrow, I get corruption. Then he re-spawns and kills me and takes my bow. Then without weapon I get killed all the way back to town by all NPCs.

Is this a 'request for how it should work', a 'scenario you don't want to see' or just 'a potential situation that you find funny'?

Please bear with me, this is The Internet, so there's never any way to know how serious someone is.

Strevi

Azherae wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

If I see a green player fighting with the Minotaur and I try to help him but he has 1 hit point and body blocks my arrow, I get corruption. Then he re-spawns and kills me and takes my bow. Then without weapon I get killed all the way back to town by all NPCs.

Is this a 'request for how it should work', a 'scenario you don't want to see' or just 'a potential situation that you find funny'?

Please bear with me, this is The Internet, so there's never any way to know how serious someone is.

Somebody who wants projectiles to follow physics rules and also implement common sense will have difficult life as a developer. Party members cannot even flag each other. If projectiles cannot pass through their bodies then they'll hinder each-other. Many things can happen while the projectile travels. Some can become corrupted moments before the projectile arrives... corrupted players can be killed by guild members but not if they are just combatants.
Tab target and action combat do not seem to like each other in this context.
Beside having fun, I am also curious how will it be solved.
You know the answer already?

Sathrago

The question is, do we really want this?

Nepoke

Since the showcase seemed to model GW2 very closely, I imagine the interactions are the same:

Friendlies don't block projectlies, but hostiles do.
If a summoner puts their summon between themselves and the ranger, the summon will tank all the shots.
Exception would be ranged attacks with a piercing property.

You could argue that friendlies (or in AoC's case non purple/red) should block projectiles too (with no damage taken), which would help balance ranged vs melee in 250v250. However, I'm fairly sure nobody will want this because of the griefing/general pain in the ass this would open up.

Azherae

Nepoke wrote: »

Since the showcase seemed to model GW2 very closely, I imagine the interactions are the same:

Friendlies don't block projectlies, but hostiles do.
If a summoner puts their summon between themselves and the ranger, the summon will tank all the shots.
Exception would be ranged attacks with a piercing property.

You could argue that friendlies (or in AoC's case non purple/red) should block projectiles too (with no damage taken), which would help balance ranged vs melee in 250v250. However, I'm fairly sure nobody will want this because of the griefing/general pain in the ass this would open up.

I see, so this would imply that I could PULL a large mob between the Ranger and another mob they were fighting, and depending on how hate lists are handled, 'dump that mob on the Ranger'.

But also that a Player couldn't evade a snipe by ducking behind some gatherer. I never paid much attention to how those situations worked in GW2, so thank you for providing the context to all those who also didn't/didn't play it.

Strevi

GW2 is not an open world PvP.
All players "know" their friends the moment they join an instance and that stays unchanged.
Projectiles are not stopped by friendly players.
Also GW2 is tab targeting as far as I know. I mean you need to have a selected target to damage it unless is an area spell like that ranger air strike we seen in the recent stream.

Azherae

Strevi wrote: »

GW2 is not an open world PvP.
All players "know" their friends the moment they join an instance and that stays unchanged.
Projectiles are not stopped by friendly players.
Also GW2 is tab targeting as far as I know. I mean you need to have a selected target to damage it unless is an area spell like that ranger air strike we seen in the recent stream.

I'm just going with what Nepoke said, as noted it didn't really come up in my observations.

The conclusions from 'what GW2 does' applied to the scenarios of Ashes seem reasonable. I don't consider it to be 'the guaranteed outcome', but it does seem to make some sense.

Strevi

Azherae wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

GW2 is not an open world PvP.
All players "know" their friends the moment they join an instance and that stays unchanged.
Projectiles are not stopped by friendly players.
Also GW2 is tab targeting as far as I know. I mean you need to have a selected target to damage it unless is an area spell like that ranger air strike we seen in the recent stream.

I'm just going with what Nepoke said, as noted it didn't really come up in my observations.

The conclusions from 'what GW2 does' applied to the scenarios of Ashes seem reasonable. I don't consider it to be 'the guaranteed outcome', but it does seem to make some sense.

I think GW2 is not projectile based.
Not as Steven described it here:
https://youtu.be/GjEP4P5vDZI?t=2889
@Nepoke can you maybe confirm if GW2 is like here in AoC, where the arrow already left the bow and another player or NPC might jump in-between while the arrow flies and receive it's collision effect?

Nepoke

Strevi wrote: »

GW2 is not an open world PvP.
All players "know" their friends the moment they join an instance and that stays unchanged.
Projectiles are not stopped by friendly players.
Also GW2 is tab targeting as far as I know. I mean you need to have a selected target to damage it unless is an area spell like that ranger air strike we seen in the recent stream.

In GW2 you do not need a target to initiate a projectile attack, and you do not need to have a target for the projectile to cause damage to whatever it collides with. For example, if you know there is someone stealthed in front of you, you can use vast majority of the attacks in the game to damage them even without a target. The exception is skills that are purely tab target abilities like non-projectile single target ranged attacks.

GW2 even has an almost identical action camera mode that matches the hybrid action mode shown during the stream. We'll see how useful it turns out to be in AoC.

The only difference is that in AoC you will have the flag button. The way I see how this will work with the current information is as follows:
A green player is standing in front of the projectlie? Projectiles go through them.
A purple/red player and not in your party? Projectiles hit and deal damage.
Force attacking a green player and another green player stands in the way? If the wording Steven uses is interpreted strictly, the arrow should pass through the first green player and then hit the target. The attacker turns purple, but they will still have to hold down force attack to continue damaging their target and the person in between will be unharmed still.

Azherae

The problem I'd have with this, I think, is that 'Green' doesn't mean 'not involved in the situation', and Tanks won't always want to use their long range abilities to 'flag up'.

So it might prevent a Tank from blocking shots against their party, especially in a situation where the Tank is doing their job against a mob and the player being attacked moves behind the tank.

So I would figure that even if you targeted Green A with your shot, the projectile should still hit Green B, and do damage.

Strevi

So each arrow should know who is in the ranger's team, his guild members, guild alliances... maybe family too and know to pass or stop the flight when the collision occurs?
I am curious how the caravan system works, if you can see the participants fighting and jumping in-between them.

Dizz1

First, I never have any problem about how should arrows or projectiles should behave or be done etc, and I also know that in game character and system and server can't see or predict the future like how human does so most of game just make projectiles fly in straight line or like a magic missile chases to the target until it hits the target like WOW did, I have no problem about these things because the character in game is not a real living being and the game don't work like real world as long as the rules are simple and clear then I'm fine with anything about how projectiles work.

Azherae wrote: »

So I would figure that even if you targeted Green A with your shot, the projectile should still hit Green B, and do damage.

In my opinion situations like this it's mostly depends on the skill level etc about the archer in real world but I believe as long as the situation is predictable to the archer then the archer is able to hit the target even there is another person standing between the archer and the target, there are some ways to do the tricks to hit the target behind objects, I'm not very good archer so it's not every time I able to hit the killing spot but yeah it's doable.

So, in a MMORPG I prefer the arrow will hit player A instead of B, I accept that I not able to hit some one hide behind a object like a pillar with projectiles, so I hope other players would accept at least I can hit the player A who stand behind player B when they both green.

Another situations I don't real have answers, but at least I feel that as long as the hostile players or monsters between my target and I are not too close to me, I prefer I able to hit the target I want to hit, simple example like I'm 1v2 I want hit A, but B run towards me with a monster B pulled, before B and the monster enter like 2 or 3 meter range in front of me and between A and me, I prefer I able to hit A, after B and monster enter the range I accept my trick shot won't able to hit what I want to hit and my arrow will hit on B or the monster depends on some rules maybe the nearest hostile target, but as I know there is some way to shoot a trick arrow can turn widely to hit the target but I don't think it's fun for a game design just want to say it.

Sapiverenus

Strevi wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

If I see a green player fighting with the Minotaur and I try to help him but he has 1 hit point and body blocks my arrow, I get corruption. Then he re-spawns and kills me and takes my bow. Then without weapon I get killed all the way back to town by all NPCs.

Is this a 'request for how it should work', a 'scenario you don't want to see' or just 'a potential situation that you find funny'?

Please bear with me, this is The Internet, so there's never any way to know how serious someone is.

Somebody who wants projectiles to follow physics rules and also implement common sense will have difficult life as a developer. Party members cannot even flag each other. If projectiles cannot pass through their bodies then they'll hinder each-other. Many things can happen while the projectile travels. Some can become corrupted moments before the projectile arrives... corrupted players can be killed by guild members but not if they are just combatants.
Tab target and action combat do not seem to like each other in this context.
Beside having fun, I am also curious how will it be solved.
You know the answer already?

Red to the person you kill, Purple or Green to everyone else.

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