Tab target is just sad

It looked similar to the old ranger video I saw years ago. People play WoW for its nostalgia not for its combat and ashes will not have any nostalgia to benefit from.

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Aerlana

Destiny 1/2 have probably headshot mechanics and... and... ... ... (not eeven sure never played them ^^')
that's all.
so because without it the game combat will get stale, and so the game, only destiny's game are good ?

"good/bad" is ... subjective view, i find FIFA game bad, and lot of people buy them, so does for call of/battlefield games. and for mmorpg, my 2 favourite gameplay far over all others, that i find both really good, are ... one tab one action

The game will have both tab-target and action, bind together thru this hybrid...
At this point, while we can't even try it, test it thru alpha one, complaining one or the other exist is just, imo, childish.

beretta7

Aerlana wrote: »

Destiny 1/2 have probably headshot mechanics and... and... ... ... (not eeven sure never played them ^^')
that's all.
so because without it the game combat will get stale, and so the game, only destiny's game are good ?

"good/bad" is ... subjective view, i find FIFA game bad, and lot of people buy them, so does for call of/battlefield games. and for mmorpg, my 2 favourite gameplay far over all others, that i find both really good, are ... one tab one action

The game will have both tab-target and action, bind together thru this hybrid...
At this point, while we can't even try it, test it thru alpha one, complaining one or the other exist is just, imo, childish.

Saying one is childish because he thinks tab target will ruin a game is a bit ridiculous. If you watch Twitch there is a massive swath of gaming that wants pvp and they want it to approach being skill based. That crowd won't even play MMORPG's in many instances because no one has made a good one EVER. There have been a few with amazing combat but were so lacking in content that eventually there was no reason to not play games like Apex etc. Even if they sniff good pvp in this game with FPS or decent action pvp like New World they will pick up a very large crowd that has been alienated for decades. I enjoyed New World PVP but the game was just missing too much in content that THIS game has. I think it would not just be a good decision to keep gamers like myself around but also to bring in a huge crowd that usually doesnt touch this type of game. If you are the kind of gamer that just doesnt want to play anything but low skill/no skill pvp...well you have 20 years of games to choose from. I'd like just one to choose from.

Aerlana

why valorant, lol and many other PvP game get a far better scene than MMORPG ? ...

be it because no mmorpg manage to do decent action pvP gameplay ? not sure, BNS and LA got a good esport scene in korea... But there is 2 problems for competitiv PvP in MMORPG :

1) leveling...
2) stuffing...

Both things have impact on character efficiency, and it is what happens in any RPG logic...
A 10 years old account and a 2 week old account are on the same level of power for all PvP game, from MOBA to versus fighting, or FPS or others... and game that don't have it (like cards game) offers a system where you build your card on a set list which is same for all competitors.

So for competitiv PvP scene, it happens in arena, with systems to allow all character have a similar stuff and similar level... So in fact you remove to base component from MMORPG to have a real competitiv...
I mean, why people here for competition would spend 30 or 45 days to lvlup, and then try to get world boss down to get stuff if all they want is... testing their skill ?

So would you want, to fit more this potential crowd of player... remove those two point to just have directly PvP with all on same level and stuff ? There is no need to transform a MMORPG into another arena game to have this... there are 20 years of game doing it already

Deadfool

the game is nowhere near completion and there you already have snowflakes complaining about things...

beretta7

Aerlana wrote: »

So would you want, to fit more this potential crowd of player... remove those two point to just have directly PvP with all on same level and stuff ? There is no need to transform a MMORPG into another arena game to have this... there are 20 years of game doing it already

When I read this it's obvious you don't get it. That is fine honestly, but let me quickly explain something to you. Arena games are fun but they are arena games and have zero immersion. There are many that want to have that immersion along with good pvp. It's possible it's just never been done because most game makers either don't understand how to make it work or they are scared because its a business. I honestly thought Stephen did get it and would make something better including combat. But I truly think he leans personally into the no skill pvp arena and is probably a little paranoid about profitability. Someone will make that jump eventually and they will make a boatload of money over a long term. We know care bear games can do it...Wow proved that but I'm not interested in another WoW combat game...give me some skilled combat WITH immersion and a great world/content.

Hasil

I always expected hybrid combat to simply mean action for many things but tab targeting for things where action doesn't work well. The toggle back and forth system, as I and others have said elsewhere, doesn't really make sense. One mode (probably tab) will be superior and people will just use that or be at a disadvantage.

It could be that the tech just won't allow for 250v250 fights with action combat working. But if that's the case they should not have gotten up MANY MANY peoples' hopes that there might be legit action combat in AOC.

I also think that maybe tech limitations will not prevent a working action combat system. Judging from A1 the performance even this early, before conversion to the new engine, was good enough to allow for action combat to work well.

Hinotori

Hasil wrote: »

It could be that the tech just won't allow for 250v250 fights with action combat working. But if that's the case they should not have gotten up MANY MANY peoples' hopes that there might be legit action combat in AOC.

They never did. They always said it was going to be a hybrid system. Otherwise they would have come out and just said WE'RE HAVING A FULL ACTION SYSTEM and gotten all of the 3 people that like new world combat to nut and instead of you complaining here it would just be someone else who prefers guild wars 2.

Either way the bandaid has been pulled off now, rejoice.

Dummo

[Deleted]

Hasil

Natasha wrote: »

They never did. They always said it was going to be a hybrid system. Otherwise they would have come out and just said WE'RE HAVING A FULL ACTION SYSTEM and gotten all of the 3 people that like new world combat to nut and instead of you complaining here it would just be someone else who prefers guild wars 2.

Hybrid means a combination of two things. This doesn't seem to include any action combat elements, the "action" mode simply changes your POV. So it's not even hybrid. I think that is a big reason people are disappointed.

beretta7

Hasil wrote: »

I always expected hybrid combat to simply mean action for many things but tab targeting for things where action doesn't work well. The toggle back and forth system, as I and others have said elsewhere, doesn't really make sense. One mode (probably tab) will be superior and people will just use that or be at a disadvantage.

It could be that the tech just won't allow for 250v250 fights with action combat working. But if that's the case they should not have gotten up MANY MANY peoples' hopes that there might be legit action combat in AOC.

I also think that maybe tech limitations will not prevent a working action combat system. Judging from A1 the performance even this early, before conversion to the new engine, was good enough to allow for action combat to work well.

Honestly blows my mind this game refuses to move onto action combat?? IMO he better have a heck of an excuse to be stuck in the year 2000. All you players acting like it's a no brainer that tab target should be used...there are plenty of 20 year old MMORPG's that still have that system that you can go back and play. Let's take this supposed breakthrough game into the next gen please.

Mag7spy

Hybrid is the proper way to do things right now imo, I feel more full action will come in the future though. The more action is used the more challenges come up and not everyone has answers for them. so hybrid becoming the new standard will slowly answer more questions in time how to create better full action combat.

What was shown was really good even if it leans more towards the tab side and that is fine. But they need to have incentives for action and the skill that goes into it, as its clear the ease of tab auto attacks is plainly obvious and boring.

Anyone starting tot alk about tab is skill with auto attacks is actually dreaming in nostalgia and going full cyberpsycho imo. Like if I need to boot up a older mmo and make a video of a auto attack and ask how that takes skill or is worth arguing about it I will do it.

There is absolutely nothing special about a auto attack in a tab target mmorpg, that button isn't even normally used as you are doing your skill rotation....

Now skills being tab or action and having the choice to adjust and change them as you level up i have no issues with that is just hybrid. go 70% tab or 70% action, there should be benefits and draw backs to everything based on design, not based on action or tab target bias. Is this skill harder to hit, you need to aim, etc ok more dmg or some kind of buff. Is this skill aoe and easy to hit, ok it prob shouldn't do as much damage as other skills because of the size of the aoe...

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Hybrid is the proper way to do things right now imo, I feel more full action will come in the future though. The more action is used the more challenges come up and not everyone has answers for them. so hybrid becoming the new standard will slowly answer more questions in time how to create better full action combat.

What was shown was really good even if it leans more towards the tab side and that is fine. But they need to have incentives for action and the skill that goes into it, as its clear the ease of tab auto attacks is plainly obvious and boring.

Anyone starting tot alk about tab is skill with auto attacks is actually dreaming in nostalgia and going full cyberpsycho imo. Like if I need to boot up a older mmo and make a video of a auto attack and ask how that takes skill or is worth arguing about it I will do it.

There is absolutely nothing special about a auto attack in a tab target mmorpg, that button isn't even normally used as you are doing your skill rotation....

Now skills being tab or action and having the choice to adjust and change them as you level up i have no issues with that is just hybrid. go 70% tab or 70% action, there should be benefits and draw backs to everything based on design, not based on action or tab target bias. Is this skill harder to hit, you need to aim, etc ok more dmg or some kind of buff. Is this skill aoe and easy to hit, ok it prob shouldn't do as much damage as other skills because of the size of the aoe...

I think Steven's intention is to have the Accuracy Build vs Evasion Build setup, though. Otherwise players who build Evasion for PvE situations (or don't build it because they are used to PvP situations) will be at disadvantage when in a GvG since the opponent will just switch.

What I mean is, if Action has a bonus and the player therefore doesn't build up their Accuracy STAT on their gear or whatever, they'll have trouble in PvE situations where the enemy always applies the Evasion stat.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Hybrid is the proper way to do things right now imo, I feel more full action will come in the future though. The more action is used the more challenges come up and not everyone has answers for them. so hybrid becoming the new standard will slowly answer more questions in time how to create better full action combat.

What was shown was really good even if it leans more towards the tab side and that is fine. But they need to have incentives for action and the skill that goes into it, as its clear the ease of tab auto attacks is plainly obvious and boring.

Anyone starting tot alk about tab is skill with auto attacks is actually dreaming in nostalgia and going full cyberpsycho imo. Like if I need to boot up a older mmo and make a video of a auto attack and ask how that takes skill or is worth arguing about it I will do it.

There is absolutely nothing special about a auto attack in a tab target mmorpg, that button isn't even normally used as you are doing your skill rotation....

Now skills being tab or action and having the choice to adjust and change them as you level up i have no issues with that is just hybrid. go 70% tab or 70% action, there should be benefits and draw backs to everything based on design, not based on action or tab target bias. Is this skill harder to hit, you need to aim, etc ok more dmg or some kind of buff. Is this skill aoe and easy to hit, ok it prob shouldn't do as much damage as other skills because of the size of the aoe...

I think Steven's intention is to have the Accuracy Build vs Evasion Build setup, though. Otherwise players who build Evasion for PvE situations (or don't build it because they are used to PvP situations) will be at disadvantage when in a GvG since the opponent will just switch.

What I mean is, if Action has a bonus and the player therefore doesn't build up their Accuracy STAT on their gear or whatever, they'll have trouble in PvE situations where the enemy always applies the Evasion stat.

Could be the case, i know they seem to be sticking to something as in the stream he mentioned other things like bonuses. But I don't think they are there yet development wise so its harder to show that kind of stuff or talk about it.

If that was made more clear again I don't think people would be saying as much to be honest, overall for the stage its at things looked good on combat on all fronts. (even more so when I compare it to what I saw with throne and liberty)

But it is development so we will see how things go with stats later on eventually and how things might work.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Hybrid is the proper way to do things right now imo, I feel more full action will come in the future though. The more action is used the more challenges come up and not everyone has answers for them. so hybrid becoming the new standard will slowly answer more questions in time how to create better full action combat.

I actually agree here - given time, there will eventually be someone that figures out how to make a proper action combat based MMORPG that isn't shit.

When that happens, there will be a serfeit of action combat MMO's, and a few people will then start to go back to making fully tab target based MMO's.

This is essentially the same thing that strategy games had happen where turn based was the only way to do strategy, then RTS came along. It sucked at first, but eventually got fairly good (Command and Conquer was the turning point, imo).

Songcaller

I dislike the whole evasion stat and accuracy stat situation. It's one of the worst forced schematics that can exist. The gear is pvx but accuracy will become a pvp stat. I hate being forced to choose between evasion or accuracy and even worse being forced to have evasion and accuracy at the same time.

Alacrite

beretta7 wrote: »

It's actually really sad. I think this game has will be breakthrough on nearly every system, but they failed on combat. You can't release a game with tab target and assume it's going to be long term successful. You need skill in these games now. We need head shot mechanics especially in pvp. Without it the combat will get stale and so will the game.

I'm in the action combat camp but I highly disagree with this. There's a shift in what skill set you need to outperform players, but there's no lack of skill.

The zoomers think aiming is everything and boomers think it'll ruin everything. Zoomers have no macro sense and suck ass in their shooters. They clip their lucky headshots and chalk it up to their skill. Boomers think an added mechanic will change an MMO into an FPS when it just makes bow gameplay more immersive.

The game will do fine if kept this way. The hybrid combat is actually a great improvement to the tab system (ty guild wars). Adding action combat with minimal benefit (partial crit on headshot, increased range with damage drop) will make the gameplay more enticing. But tab targetting was always going to be optimal because the game was never going to be an aim battle. There will be depth to the combat system either way, and that's just there to supplement every other breakthrough system like you said.

Alacrite

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Like the younger generation only is used to fps fortnite gameplay. Maybe they should take on new challenges instead of bad talking everthing that is unknown to them. Where do you think this mentality will lead them to in life...?

Nothing against trying out new things. Action combat had its chances in MMOs like New World showcased. It failed. So maybe the MMO market needs something that actually works.

Action combat in New World is the only reason it had any success and the game did a poor job of implementing it along with it's absurdly bad networking. It's just a mechanic. Adding it to Ashes would never have gotten rid of tab targetting, and everyone who prefers tab would've already had the optimal route of play regardless. Having some sort of aim mechanic just adds immersion to the class. The melee combat in Ashes is definitively action combat but it's not awful like New Worlds. Same thing can apply to ranged combat with a few tweeks.

I do agree zoomers are narrow minded about tab though.

Sapiverenus

Natasha wrote: »

Hasil wrote: »

It could be that the tech just won't allow for 250v250 fights with action combat working. But if that's the case they should not have gotten up MANY MANY peoples' hopes that there might be legit action combat in AOC.

They never did. They always said it was going to be a hybrid system. Otherwise they would have come out and just said WE'RE HAVING A FULL ACTION SYSTEM and gotten all of the 3 people that like new world combat to nut and instead of you complaining here it would just be someone else who prefers guild wars 2.

Either way the bandaid has been pulled off now, rejoice.

When I first looked at New World I could tell it suffered from lack of content as @beretta7 said.
And he seems to be saying the action side is lacking within the context of a hybrid system.

Azherae wrote: »

I think Steven's intention is to have the Accuracy Build vs Evasion Build setup, though. Otherwise players who build Evasion for PvE situations (or don't build it because they are used to PvP situations) will be at disadvantage when in a GvG since the opponent will just switch.

What I mean is, if Action has a bonus and the player therefore doesn't build up their Accuracy STAT on their gear or whatever, they'll have trouble in PvE situations where the enemy always applies the Evasion stat.

Building up a stat called Accuracy is ****. Weapon skill that also affects action aim is fine; 'STATS ON GEAR' is ****.

Mag7spy

Neurath wrote: »

I dislike the whole evasion stat and accuracy stat situation. It's one of the worst forced schematics that can exist. The gear is pvx but accuracy will become a pvp stat. I hate being forced to choose between evasion or accuracy and even worse being forced to have evasion and accuracy at the same time.

I don't have a issue with stats as long as they are balanced. There shouldn't be a point where your base evasion between similar levels is like 50%+. Which then they apply buffs and are just never hit.

BDO had this issue since there wasn't that much customization, except for accuracy, and evasion, damage reduction on gear and people got to like 90% evasion rate and dodged all your damage forever at base.

So long story short math where you need to over come the evasion to hit them is bad. But having evasion be its thing that will have a cap, and being able to counter that evasion with bonus accuracy.

Good - Ie they have 40% evasion dodge. But you have 25% bonus accuracy that reduces evasion dodge to 15%

Bad - ie They have 800 evasion but your attacks have a accuracy of 500-950 so only time you deal dmg is when you are at 800+ (BDO accuracy is a bit more complicated than that but trying to keep it more simple just for understanding cause they do some stupid math)

So for the bad way you just are not hitting your target most of the time, and if your value are lower you are going to get towards missing them like every attack.

Azherae

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Building up a stat called Accuracy is ****. Weapon skill that also affects action aim is fine; 'STATS ON GEAR' is ****.

I once again suggest you try some MineCraft.

Group PvE games tend to need this stat. Even when you are not building a specific actual 'accuracy stat' in a game like Monster Hunter, there are many gear parts that are contributing to your accuracy in small ways. A game with Ashes' TTK is probably best served with an Accuracy Stat because that allows them to ignore a lot of the more confusing complexities when in a large group.

I don't think it would be reasonable to remove such a stat in a game with a Tab Target option, and all the work required to get players to understand 'other methods of having accuracy' is likely to lead to a stagnant meta.

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