Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » We have gone over this you have said that already lmao. You are forgetting other discussions about content which is fine. No we haven't. If we had, you would have quoted it. I get you are mad and are missing the "in cells" part. Like i said we have gone over this in action combat to tab about having other people help call things out and work together, rather than just the main raid leader calling things out. You deemed you can't do that, which is naïve at best. I believe I said you have no idea how raids work - not that it can not be done. You can't break a raid up in to "cells" in most content, because people need to be moving all over the place. In top end content, if there is someone calling out every ability that an encounter uses, then no one would be able to hear a damn thing over the sound of everyone yelling shit out. What you do is you work out what abilities the boss has that NEED to be called out, and you task someone with calling those abilities out - someone that doesn't have other tasks they need to perform that could see them rendered unable to call out said ability. Since each guild is different in terms of what abilities they want called out (in games that are not WoW, at least), you need to work out what each ability is actually doing before you work out which ones you want called out. The way to work that out is to see what each ability does, and how often it does it, and the easiest way to do that is to use a combat tracker. You seem to think combat trackers do more than what they actually do. You seem to think they are performing all of the tasks above, rather than just the initial task of assisting the raid in working out what each ability does. It is comments like these that make me think you have never played an MMORPG at all - and your constant statements of "I've played more MMO's than you" simply makes me think you are a school kid, telling us all how your dad could beat my dad. I've played more mmorpgs then you, and honestly if you are looking at trackers data most the time i don't view that as playing a mmorpg. Neither do I. I never look at data while I am playing the game. I've said that AT LEAST a dozen times in discussion with you. and there are hundreds of pages, not going to go find the post where you start arguing you cant do that and saying it is stupid lol. I mean, there are tools to make finding it easier. All you need to do is remember a single word that either you or I said in regards to that discussion and search the thread for it.
Mag7spy wrote: » We have gone over this you have said that already lmao. You are forgetting other discussions about content which is fine.
I get you are mad and are missing the "in cells" part. Like i said we have gone over this in action combat to tab about having other people help call things out and work together, rather than just the main raid leader calling things out. You deemed you can't do that, which is naïve at best.
I've played more mmorpgs then you, and honestly if you are looking at trackers data most the time i don't view that as playing a mmorpg.
and there are hundreds of pages, not going to go find the post where you start arguing you cant do that and saying it is stupid lol.
my assumption is that you have never actually played an MMO, based on your apparent knowledge of them.
SongRune wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Yet this process could continue on and on until it is both difficult to reverse engineer and transparent enough to players to be understandable and enjoyable. The problem is... if you give players information, then trackers also have that same information. The days when there were things that are easy for humans to read and properly hard for computers to read are long past. And this doesn't apply only to text.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Yet this process could continue on and on until it is both difficult to reverse engineer and transparent enough to players to be understandable and enjoyable.
Noaani wrote: This is still just your fantasy where the game doesn't have a combat log. I'm sure that you will - one day - join the rest of us in reality.
Mag7spy wrote: » You have you can look through your old post it is there.
When did I say a tracker tells you what is going on in the middle of combat, i haven't. That would be the next step where you have combat assistance though.
When did i say ever member is speaking over each other, pretty bad assumption there.
Sapiverenus wrote: » It's a project by a dude. In reality. In reality -> people aren't Laws of the Universe outside of anyone's reach. Do you think the prospect is good, or bad? Is the goal itself bad to you?
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » It's a project by a dude. In reality. In reality -> people aren't Laws of the Universe outside of anyone's reach. Do you think the prospect is good, or bad? Is the goal itself bad to you? Steven has said the game will have combat logs. Until he says otherwise, we work on the assumption the game will have combat logs. Any time you say "how about we ignore this aspect of the game that Intrepid have talked about" you may as well be talking about another game. When you start stringing many such things together (as you have done), you are talking about a fantasy game.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: This is still just your fantasy where the game doesn't have a combat log. I'm sure that you will - one day - join the rest of us in reality. It's a project by a dude. In reality. In reality -> people aren't Laws of the Universe outside of anyone's reach. Do you think the prospect is good, or bad? Is the goal itself bad to you? Fin. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » It's a project by a dude. In reality. In reality -> people aren't Laws of the Universe outside of anyone's reach. Do you think the prospect is good, or bad? Is the goal itself bad to you? Steven has said the game will have combat logs. Until he says otherwise, we work on the assumption the game will have combat logs. Any time you say "how about we ignore this aspect of the game that Intrepid have talked about" you may as well be talking about another game. When you start stringing many such things together (as you have done), you are talking about a fantasy game. Talking about the genre as a whole and a small part of it is plenty appropriate in its scope and subject. All I've strung together is a somewhat cohesive design for an MMORPG that would fit in Ashes of Creation while shitting on many problems the genre, game, and players would otherwise face. Do you think it's good as part of the genre or not. Do you think it's good as part of the game's direction or not.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Talking about the genre as a whole and a small part of it is plenty appropriate in its scope and subject. All I've strung together is a somewhat cohesive design choice that may feature in an MMORPG, that would fit in Ashes of Creation while shitting on many problems the genre, game, and players would otherwise face. Of course, it would also be more immersive and open up gameplay opportunities. Do you think it's good as part of the genre or not. Do you think it's good as part of the game's direction or not.
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: This is still just your fantasy where the game doesn't have a combat log. I'm sure that you will - one day - join the rest of us in reality. It's a project by a dude. In reality. In reality -> people aren't Laws of the Universe outside of anyone's reach. Do you think the prospect is good, or bad? Is the goal itself bad to you? Fin. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » It's a project by a dude. In reality. In reality -> people aren't Laws of the Universe outside of anyone's reach. Do you think the prospect is good, or bad? Is the goal itself bad to you? Steven has said the game will have combat logs. Until he says otherwise, we work on the assumption the game will have combat logs. Any time you say "how about we ignore this aspect of the game that Intrepid have talked about" you may as well be talking about another game. When you start stringing many such things together (as you have done), you are talking about a fantasy game. Talking about the genre as a whole and a small part of it is plenty appropriate in its scope and subject. All I've strung together is a somewhat cohesive design for an MMORPG that would fit in Ashes of Creation while shitting on many problems the genre, game, and players would otherwise face. Do you think it's good as part of the genre or not. Do you think it's good as part of the game's direction or not. You'd still have to define exactly how the design gives players any information at all. UI gotta start somewhere. Basically you're talking about a theoretical game where a player can see something that my UICore code can't. Which doesn't exist.
"Yet this process could continue on and on until it is both difficult to reverse engineer and transparent enough to players to be understandable and enjoyable. All the while adding in new mechanics, grounding feedback, immersion, so on and so forth. Even resulting in a game that counters bots and braindeadness, while also rewarding deep and grounded intuition, which would make insights and excellence more impressive. . . Fin "
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Talking about the genre as a whole and a small part of it is plenty appropriate in its scope and subject. All I've strung together is a somewhat cohesive design choice that may feature in an MMORPG, that would fit in Ashes of Creation while shitting on many problems the genre, game, and players would otherwise face. Of course, it would also be more immersive and open up gameplay opportunities. Do you think it's good as part of the genre or not. Do you think it's good as part of the game's direction or not. You have a choice, talk about the MMO genre as a whole in a thread about the MMO genre as a whole, or talk about Ashes specifically in a thread about Ashes specifically. I may answer your question if it is in the correct place - I may not. I absolutely will not answer it if it is in the wrong place.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: This is still just your fantasy where the game doesn't have a combat log. I'm sure that you will - one day - join the rest of us in reality. It's a project by a dude. In reality. In reality -> people aren't Laws of the Universe outside of anyone's reach. Do you think the prospect is good, or bad? Is the goal itself bad to you? Fin. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » It's a project by a dude. In reality. In reality -> people aren't Laws of the Universe outside of anyone's reach. Do you think the prospect is good, or bad? Is the goal itself bad to you? Steven has said the game will have combat logs. Until he says otherwise, we work on the assumption the game will have combat logs. Any time you say "how about we ignore this aspect of the game that Intrepid have talked about" you may as well be talking about another game. When you start stringing many such things together (as you have done), you are talking about a fantasy game. Talking about the genre as a whole and a small part of it is plenty appropriate in its scope and subject. All I've strung together is a somewhat cohesive design for an MMORPG that would fit in Ashes of Creation while shitting on many problems the genre, game, and players would otherwise face. Do you think it's good as part of the genre or not. Do you think it's good as part of the game's direction or not. You'd still have to define exactly how the design gives players any information at all. UI gotta start somewhere. Basically you're talking about a theoretical game where a player can see something that my UICore code can't. Which doesn't exist. Why are you replying the same way. . . "Yet this process could continue on and on until it is both difficult to reverse engineer and transparent enough to players to be understandable and enjoyable. All the while adding in new mechanics, grounding feedback, immersion, so on and so forth. Even resulting in a game that counters bots and braindeadness, while also rewarding deep and grounded intuition, which would make insights and excellence more impressive. . . Fin " Do you think this is good, or not?
Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Talking about the genre as a whole and a small part of it is plenty appropriate in its scope and subject. All I've strung together is a somewhat cohesive design choice that may feature in an MMORPG, that would fit in Ashes of Creation while shitting on many problems the genre, game, and players would otherwise face. Of course, it would also be more immersive and open up gameplay opportunities. Do you think it's good as part of the genre or not. Do you think it's good as part of the game's direction or not. You have a choice, talk about the MMO genre as a whole in a thread about the MMO genre as a whole, or talk about Ashes specifically in a thread about Ashes specifically. I may answer your question if it is in the correct place - I may not. I absolutely will not answer it if it is in the wrong place. Given it's a question about how numbers and number transparency is handled it's in the right place. Now answer the question.
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: This is still just your fantasy where the game doesn't have a combat log. I'm sure that you will - one day - join the rest of us in reality. It's a project by a dude. In reality. In reality -> people aren't Laws of the Universe outside of anyone's reach. Do you think the prospect is good, or bad? Is the goal itself bad to you? Fin. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » It's a project by a dude. In reality. In reality -> people aren't Laws of the Universe outside of anyone's reach. Do you think the prospect is good, or bad? Is the goal itself bad to you? Steven has said the game will have combat logs. Until he says otherwise, we work on the assumption the game will have combat logs. Any time you say "how about we ignore this aspect of the game that Intrepid have talked about" you may as well be talking about another game. When you start stringing many such things together (as you have done), you are talking about a fantasy game. Talking about the genre as a whole and a small part of it is plenty appropriate in its scope and subject. All I've strung together is a somewhat cohesive design for an MMORPG that would fit in Ashes of Creation while shitting on many problems the genre, game, and players would otherwise face. Do you think it's good as part of the genre or not. Do you think it's good as part of the game's direction or not. You'd still have to define exactly how the design gives players any information at all. UI gotta start somewhere. Basically you're talking about a theoretical game where a player can see something that my UICore code can't. Which doesn't exist. Why are you replying the same way. . . "Yet this process could continue on and on until it is both difficult to reverse engineer and transparent enough to players to be understandable and enjoyable. All the while adding in new mechanics, grounding feedback, immersion, so on and so forth. Even resulting in a game that counters bots and braindeadness, while also rewarding deep and grounded intuition, which would make insights and excellence more impressive. . . Fin " Do you think this is good, or not? I can't debate the merits of impossible things. Probably one of my great weaknesses, this whole 'being tethered to reality'...
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Talking about the genre as a whole and a small part of it is plenty appropriate in its scope and subject. All I've strung together is a somewhat cohesive design choice that may feature in an MMORPG, that would fit in Ashes of Creation while shitting on many problems the genre, game, and players would otherwise face. Of course, it would also be more immersive and open up gameplay opportunities. Do you think it's good as part of the genre or not. Do you think it's good as part of the game's direction or not. You have a choice, talk about the MMO genre as a whole in a thread about the MMO genre as a whole, or talk about Ashes specifically in a thread about Ashes specifically. I may answer your question if it is in the correct place - I may not. I absolutely will not answer it if it is in the wrong place. Given it's a question about how numbers and number transparency is handled it's in the right place. Now answer the question. This is a thread about combat trackers in Ashes as we understand the game to be.
Sapiverenus wrote: » You refuse to engage with a question that would reveal your general opinion on the matter.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You have you can look through your old post it is there. It isn't. I never said it - because it isn't how I would play a game. You may have assumed it, but that is a result of your pre-conceived opinion on trackers and people that use them, an opinion that is not formed on any actual knowledge. That is why you can't find it - and the fact you can't find it is why you can't quote it. When did I say a tracker tells you what is going on in the middle of combat, i haven't. That would be the next step where you have combat assistance though. This is incorrect. A combat assistant would perform an action in game for you. When did i say ever member is speaking over each other, pretty bad assumption there. If you are suggesting that people call out abilities without actually having a good idea of what abilities they need to call out, you are saying exactly this, just without knowing you are saying it. There are so many abilities going off so often, that it would absolutely be a case of players talking over each other. This is why the only abilities a raid calls are the abilities that the raid has decided they need to coordinate in order to overcome. Again, this is different per raid, and depends on things like class, gear, build and specific player skill of those present. Raids decide which abilities need to be called based on how they decide to tackle each ability. They make that call based on hard data about each ability a boss has. Bring this back to your assertion that I would use a combat tracker in place of communication. Explain to me how that holds any truth at all to you when I am using a combat tracker to make sure clear communication is able to happen.
Mag7spy wrote: » You can believe what you want doesn't change what you have said though, we had a giant discussion over it and you refuses to believe action combat people can handle more going on and any amount of coop effort with communication. Maybe you are starting to understand why I keep saying you have bad takes.
Mag7spy wrote: » He says he isn't capable of communicating as a group to clear content in cells.
Mag7spy wrote: » I'm not going to have a giant discussion with you again over this, if you care what people say listen and be open to ideas. All you have shown is care for what you want and assuming I'm suddenly talking about calling off abilities which is weird. It shouldn't be under to understand having a main lead and cell groups to share communication with each other based on mechs you need to deal with.
Mag7spy wrote: » Have already gone over communication and talking to your team to figure things out over time rather than relying on a tracker for everything.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: This is still just your fantasy where the game doesn't have a combat log. I'm sure that you will - one day - join the rest of us in reality. It's a project by a dude. In reality. In reality -> people aren't Laws of the Universe outside of anyone's reach. Do you think the prospect is good, or bad? Is the goal itself bad to you? Fin. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » It's a project by a dude. In reality. In reality -> people aren't Laws of the Universe outside of anyone's reach. Do you think the prospect is good, or bad? Is the goal itself bad to you? Steven has said the game will have combat logs. Until he says otherwise, we work on the assumption the game will have combat logs. Any time you say "how about we ignore this aspect of the game that Intrepid have talked about" you may as well be talking about another game. When you start stringing many such things together (as you have done), you are talking about a fantasy game. Talking about the genre as a whole and a small part of it is plenty appropriate in its scope and subject. All I've strung together is a somewhat cohesive design for an MMORPG that would fit in Ashes of Creation while shitting on many problems the genre, game, and players would otherwise face. Do you think it's good as part of the genre or not. Do you think it's good as part of the game's direction or not. You'd still have to define exactly how the design gives players any information at all. UI gotta start somewhere. Basically you're talking about a theoretical game where a player can see something that my UICore code can't. Which doesn't exist. Why are you replying the same way. . . "Yet this process could continue on and on until it is both difficult to reverse engineer and transparent enough to players to be understandable and enjoyable. All the while adding in new mechanics, grounding feedback, immersion, so on and so forth. Even resulting in a game that counters bots and braindeadness, while also rewarding deep and grounded intuition, which would make insights and excellence more impressive. . . Fin " Do you think this is good, or not? I can't debate the merits of impossible things. Probably one of my great weaknesses, this whole 'being tethered to reality'... You're tethered to your own introverted mind. You understand nothing of growth or how to conceptualize something that isn't force fed into you. Do you know the real 'grounded' use of thinking? You have described yourself as useless except as a kind of programmed robot. lol Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Talking about the genre as a whole and a small part of it is plenty appropriate in its scope and subject. All I've strung together is a somewhat cohesive design choice that may feature in an MMORPG, that would fit in Ashes of Creation while shitting on many problems the genre, game, and players would otherwise face. Of course, it would also be more immersive and open up gameplay opportunities. Do you think it's good as part of the genre or not. Do you think it's good as part of the game's direction or not. You have a choice, talk about the MMO genre as a whole in a thread about the MMO genre as a whole, or talk about Ashes specifically in a thread about Ashes specifically. I may answer your question if it is in the correct place - I may not. I absolutely will not answer it if it is in the wrong place. Given it's a question about how numbers and number transparency is handled it's in the right place. Now answer the question. This is a thread about combat trackers in Ashes as we understand the game to be. That game is in development. It's up to change. This is a simple free forum for discussion. You refuse to engage with a question that would reveal your general opinion on the matter. You will not answer even for the sake of the discussion, for communication and understanding. Would you like me to understand? Answer the question.
Deadfool wrote: » https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Addons
Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » But if Intrepid won't include a combat tracker, i am not worried as much because we all know that 3rd party trackers are not completely accurate. In my experience, the only "inaccuracy" a third party tracker has is in relation to range. If combat is taking place too far away to be logged on your client, obviously the tracker wont be able to use the data. This is why some guilds run a server where all guild members have their log sent to, and it merges all logs in to one in order to run through a tracker.
Deadfool wrote: » But if Intrepid won't include a combat tracker, i am not worried as much because we all know that 3rd party trackers are not completely accurate.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You can believe what you want doesn't change what you have said though, we had a giant discussion over it and you refuses to believe action combat people can handle more going on and any amount of coop effort with communication. Maybe you are starting to understand why I keep saying you have bad takes. From what I can tell, you are saying I have bad takes because you aren't actually reading any posts, and just assuming people say things they don't say. If we did indeed have a "giant discussion" over it, it would be really easy for you to find. You claim you don't want to have another "giant discussion" over it again, which is great - I don't want to either. What I want you to do is to tell me where I said what would lead you to saying this... Mag7spy wrote: » He says he isn't capable of communicating as a group to clear content in cells. That isn't something I have ever said, because it straight up isn't true. What I have said is that your suggestion of breaking a raid up in to "cells" and having them call stuff simply wouldn't work. Other than that, I have literally no idea at all where you would get the idea that I have said I can't communicate to a raid. This is why I am asking you to quote it. You are saying that I said something that I would not say. Mag7spy wrote: » I'm not going to have a giant discussion with you again over this, if you care what people say listen and be open to ideas. All you have shown is care for what you want and assuming I'm suddenly talking about calling off abilities which is weird. It shouldn't be under to understand having a main lead and cell groups to share communication with each other based on mechs you need to deal with. What you haven't done is explain how this is a replacement for a combat tracker. You are talking about something that is happening at a different time to when you would use a combat tracker, and is performing a function that a combat tracker does not perform. You are talking about calls during combat here, which is not where a tracker is it's most effective. Mag7spy wrote: » Have already gone over communication and talking to your team to figure things out over time rather than relying on a tracker for everything. Yeah, but you have totally ignored the fact that a combat tracker doesn't stop the need to talk to your group or raid to work this out. In fact, it adds to it. I recall spending hours in Teamspeak back in the day talking to people in the guild about the encounter we were working on. We would all be looking over the data from the previous nights raid, discussing what we each thought may be going on. This is why your suggestion about combat trackers and communication are just erroneous. Trackers do not supplant communication.
