AOC combat == skill

Lets be honest, the worry about tab gameplay is that the combat will be rotation/positioning centric but not have a deeper skill ceiling that will allow players to feel like they are truly getting better as players outside of the games gear progression.

However we haven't seen the ability skill trees yet, nor the augments. Both of which Stephen has said will include abilities that are not allowed to be locked on using tab. Remember 25% action and 75% tab for your hotbar? Yes basic attacks will probably always use tab targeting in this game for PVP. In PVE we could definitely argue for some special cases where action targeting makes sense. (If I were them I'd release bosses with weak spots that cant be hit without using action targeting) That being said, abilities like spawning a wall, raining down a storm of arrows, other AOE centric abilities, will likely need to be placed by the player not locked n dropped. There are plenty of other possibilities as well, just give it a little thought.

At the end of the day ya if this game had no abilities and all you did was auto attack, its combat would be real lame, but this game is literally designing most of its gameplay around abilities, not basic attacks. (Think about augments and the number of ways to achieve them already announced to us)

What nobody is talking about is the good news regarding their verbiage when talking about synergy. Skill regarding tab targeting is the problem everyone worries about. However they have just told us that they are building these classes to synergize with themselves, and any developer with both sides of their brain thinking about how to synergize kits is going to synergize not just the individual players but teams of 8 (What they say they are balancing the game for). With that we also know synergy creates the true skill ceilings that provide that feeling of true improvement on the player side (think about mobas and why they are take so long to get good at).

So lets appreciate the extent of knowledge we don't have regarding development, and maybe take into account more of what they have said. These fear mongering post are weird. Maybe this one is too idk.

The combat in this game needs to function within the limits of our technology, funds of the company and all within a reasonable timeline so my argument really just boils down to, they talk the talk and so far walk the walk, so lets let them do continue doing that.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Mag7spy

The solution is simple, you give bonus to action combat its not hard. (this does not mean every skill gets a bonus like a giant aoe)

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Sengarden wrote: »

If they would just pick one and roll with it, dev time would be cut down and they'd actually have a solid combat direction to aim for (no pun intended).

As they said multiple times, if they do pick one - it's gon be tab. So some people would be butthurt either way.

I don't know why people are saying they need to pick one, what they have is mostly fine once they iron some stuff out.

If it plays different than what people are expecting and that balance is fine that is great, but if there is a clear advantage to tab and damage wise they easily do 30+% more damage statically. Clearly they need to buff for the input and skill players have to use compared to tab. Skill is normally always rewarded in games, it be backwards if that wasn't the case now.

Dummo

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you are fighting a target or a few targets and you want to hit the warrior for example it is true rather then just clicking you will shoot instantly as well. So technically in that instance it is faster than tab. But that only relates tot he first shot...... you will have to continue to track their movements requiring much more effort than the other person use had selected him and can full kite backwards and shoot without clicking again.

I do agree that the slower walking backwards is quite a disadvantage to the reticle camera mode. Switching camera mode in this instance could be done though.

not to mention if the target is closer you just press tab, this is effecting gameplay and making it much easier as you just use tab.

What if there's a third target, that's closer to you than the target you want to shoot?

You are missing the point, when I'm looking at games i look from a design perspective. You are effective saying there is no different between tab and action in how you can deal damage because of the advantages.

That is not what I said. I said that the different camera modes have different advantages in certain situations. An optimal way to fight with Ashes' hybrid combat might be to switch camera modes every so often. Now this could be tedious to do, but I don't see them removing the tab target camera mode.

My question for you would be if we go to the melee showcase with the hammer skill. If there is a tab version that you can use and it tracks someone automatically for you, over action where you need to control it yourself and you can make mistakes. Do you feel that should have the same damage?

You missed my edit in my previous post. Comes down to me agreeing tab targeted abilities should deal less damage than action abilities. But that lies in the nature of the ability, not in the nature of the camera mode.

Dummo

Mag7spy wrote: »

This sentiment everything needs to be balanced makes no sense, that isn't how design works. Skill does giant aoe ok it doesn't do big dmg. Skill does small aoe, ok it should deal more damage than the large aoe or have some additional effect.

These two sentences are contradicting.

Mag7spy wrote: »

If it plays different than what people are expecting and that balance is fine that is great, but if there is a clear advantage to tab and damage wise they easily do 30+% more damage statically. Clearly they need to buff for the input and skill players have to use compared to tab. Skill is normally always rewarded in games, it be backwards if that wasn't the case now.

This is also balancing.

Ludullu

Dummo wrote: »

What if there's a third target, that's closer to you than the target you want to shoot?

I am curious how they'll deal with bodyblocking against tab abilities that are going to people behind you (during a big fight like a siege or smth). If the system is projectile-based, then in theory that projectile should just hit you instead. But then the whole premise of "tab can let you hit people in the back" kinda crumbles. And if tab does allow for that, the whole "it's projectile-based" phrase is kinda false.

I'd personally be fine with ranged tab attacks going directly to their targets, but I feel like the action combat crowd would be butthurt over that, cause not only would they have to be more skillful but on top of that tab would have an upper hand in bigger fights.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Dummo wrote: »

What if there's a third target, that's closer to you than the target you want to shoot?

I am curious how they'll deal with bodyblocking against tab abilities that are going to people behind you (during a big fight like a siege or smth). If the system is projectile-based, then in theory that projectile should just hit you instead. But then the whole premise of "tab can let you hit people in the back" kinda crumbles. And if tab does allow for that, the whole "it's projectile-based" phrase is kinda false.

I'd personally be fine with ranged tab attacks going directly to their targets, but I feel like the action combat crowd would be butthurt over that, cause not only would they have to be more skillful but on top of that tab would have an upper hand in bigger fights.

I saw a projectile go through the mob int he live stream, unsure if things work different with players though, or it could just be stuff they need to iron out still.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

I saw a projectile go through the mob int he live stream, unsure if things work different with players though, or it could just be stuff they need to iron out still.

Yeah, I feel like there'll be another wave of butthurt once more people notice that attacks go through, if they do

Mag7spy

Dummo wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

This sentiment everything needs to be balanced makes no sense, that isn't how design works. Skill does giant aoe ok it doesn't do big dmg. Skill does small aoe, ok it should deal more damage than the large aoe or have some additional effect.

These two sentences are contradicting.

Mag7spy wrote: »

If it plays different than what people are expecting and that balance is fine that is great, but if there is a clear advantage to tab and damage wise they easily do 30+% more damage statically. Clearly they need to buff for the input and skill players have to use compared to tab. Skill is normally always rewarded in games, it be backwards if that wasn't the case now.

This is also balancing.

I'm talking about balancing between tab and action with design. If you put more effort into something you should get a reward out of it. The later part is simply showing if you put more effort into something you get more dmg because it is harder to hit the target.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Dummo wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

This sentiment everything needs to be balanced makes no sense, that isn't how design works. Skill does giant aoe ok it doesn't do big dmg. Skill does small aoe, ok it should deal more damage than the large aoe or have some additional effect.

These two sentences are contradicting.

Mag7spy wrote: »

If it plays different than what people are expecting and that balance is fine that is great, but if there is a clear advantage to tab and damage wise they easily do 30+% more damage statically. Clearly they need to buff for the input and skill players have to use compared to tab. Skill is normally always rewarded in games, it be backwards if that wasn't the case now.

This is also balancing.

I'm talking about balancing between tab and action with design. If you put more effort into something you should get a reward out of it. The later part is simply showing if you put more effort into something you get more dmg because it is harder to hit the target.

But this won't be true for stationary bosses, or even some types of stationary player.

Which is why 'Detarget' is our most obvious balancing approach option.

No additional power needed for aiming, but by 'adding a disadvantage to pure Tab' sometimes (especially if there's a delay on being able to retarget that same target using Tab stuff) it doesn't go down the path of 'Ok everyone switch to Action Mode because you do the most damage/CC/whatever to this boss'.

Mag7spy

Dummo wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you are fighting a target or a few targets and you want to hit the warrior for example it is true rather then just clicking you will shoot instantly as well. So technically in that instance it is faster than tab. But that only relates tot he first shot...... you will have to continue to track their movements requiring much more effort than the other person use had selected him and can full kite backwards and shoot without clicking again.

I do agree that the slower walking backwards is quite a disadvantage to the reticle camera mode. Switching camera mode in this instance could be done though.

not to mention if the target is closer you just press tab, this is effecting gameplay and making it much easier as you just use tab.

What if there's a third target, that's closer to you than the target you want to shoot?

You are missing the point, when I'm looking at games i look from a design perspective. You are effective saying there is no different between tab and action in how you can deal damage because of the advantages.

That is not what I said. I said that the different camera modes have different advantages in certain situations. An optimal way to fight with Ashes' hybrid combat might be to switch camera modes every so often. Now this could be tedious to do, but I don't see them removing the tab target camera mode.

My question for you would be if we go to the melee showcase with the hammer skill. If there is a tab version that you can use and it tracks someone automatically for you, over action where you need to control it yourself and you can make mistakes. Do you feel that should have the same damage?

You missed my edit in my previous post. Comes down to me agreeing tab targeted abilities should deal less damage than action abilities. But that lies in the nature of the ability, not in the nature of the camera mode.

If there are multiple targets I've never really had a issue select the target or hitting tab twice. It is a lot easier to do that than track the target the entire time.

Only time id view things as a benefit is if you are going back and forth between targets constantly for some reason, but that doesn't seem that normal (when i say constantly i mean using a skill on every single target in a rotation around them).

Also though there some be benefits to action abilities that is also subject to a lot of other things as well. A tab ability can deal more damage than a action one and that could be completely fine as there can be reasons for it.

My main point on damage right now is about the basic attacks, until i see more how abilities work and such I feel i can't say as much on them. You will constantly be doing basic attacks compared to other tab target mmorpgs where that button isn't even really used.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Dummo wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

This sentiment everything needs to be balanced makes no sense, that isn't how design works. Skill does giant aoe ok it doesn't do big dmg. Skill does small aoe, ok it should deal more damage than the large aoe or have some additional effect.

These two sentences are contradicting.

Mag7spy wrote: »

If it plays different than what people are expecting and that balance is fine that is great, but if there is a clear advantage to tab and damage wise they easily do 30+% more damage statically. Clearly they need to buff for the input and skill players have to use compared to tab. Skill is normally always rewarded in games, it be backwards if that wasn't the case now.

This is also balancing.

I'm talking about balancing between tab and action with design. If you put more effort into something you should get a reward out of it. The later part is simply showing if you put more effort into something you get more dmg because it is harder to hit the target.

But this won't be true for stationary bosses, or even some types of stationary player.

Which is why 'Detarget' is our most obvious balancing approach option.

No additional power needed for aiming, but by 'adding a disadvantage to pure Tab' sometimes (especially if there's a delay on being able to retarget that same target using Tab stuff) it doesn't go down the path of 'Ok everyone switch to Action Mode because you do the most damage/CC/whatever to this boss'.

That is assuming things work like that, I don't want to assume anything until it is known or shown in the game atleast. Or talked about in detail. Else we are assuming things and piecing together gameplay in a way that it might not work like that exactly or be as effective as one might think.

Dummo

NiKr wrote: »

Dummo wrote: »

What if there's a third target, that's closer to you than the target you want to shoot?

I am curious how they'll deal with bodyblocking against tab abilities that are going to people behind you (during a big fight like a siege or smth). If the system is projectile-based, then in theory that projectile should just hit you instead. But then the whole premise of "tab can let you hit people in the back" kinda crumbles. And if tab does allow for that, the whole "it's projectile-based" phrase is kinda false.

I'd personally be fine with ranged tab attacks going directly to their targets, but I feel like the action combat crowd would be butthurt over that, cause not only would they have to be more skillful but on top of that tab would have an upper hand in bigger fights.

I'd be fine with tab target abilities going through players, I just hope they'll be able to be blocked (not body blocked) or dodged.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

That is assuming things work like that, I don't want to assume anything until it is known or shown in the game atleast. Or talked about in detail. Else we are assuming things and piecing together gameplay in a way that it might not work like that exactly or be as effective as one might think.

I think I'll start asking about detargeting in the dev stream q&a. A definite requirement to make tab target pvp better and more skill-demanding. L2's pvp was definitely way more dull before it.

Dummo

Mag7spy wrote: »

My main point on damage right now is about the basic attacks, until i see more how abilities work and such I feel i can't say as much on them. You will constantly be doing basic attacks compared to other tab target mmorpgs where that button isn't even really used.

I agree basic attacks in reticle camera mode vs tab target camera mode should be balanced, normally that is indeed done by giving the action combat a damage bonus. I figured this would be naturally the case, as is done in other games, hence my answers in previous posts. But now that I think about it, it might not be, because of Ashes having somewhat two different combat systems coexisting. If they do not give the basic attacks in reticle camera mode a damage bonus, let's hope we won't be using the basic attacks often. I do assume they'd give action/aimed skillshots a damage bonus over tab targeted abilities.

Heartbeat

I believe they said in the ranger basic ranged attack showcase that some abilities will behave differently depending on if its casted with tab target or action combat, and some abilities will be able to be freecasted with no lock on necessary. There will definitely be a skill ceiling, but a meta will also pop up eventually, and how that is dealt with we will just have to wait and see. (I believe they said we will have the ability to swap between using majority action combat, or tab target.)

I just really hope they don't implement any sort of headshot thing, i hate seeing pinpoint precision required for projectiles, i hated muskets and bows in new world, im not trying to play a FPS.

I think Black Desert handled projectiles pretty well when it came to Ranger.

Child Item