DPS Meter Megathread

@Noaani
You haven't answered whether you'd play an MMO where Tracking is useless.

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani
You haven't answered whether you'd play an MMO where Tracking is useless.

Yes I did. If you had been paying attention to the discussion (going back to your first few days here), you would have seen the answer.

I said I wouldn't play a game where players do not have access to objective data. Since the only way trackers could be useless is if they have no data, and since if players have data, trackers have data, saying I would not play a game if players have no data is the exact same thing as saying I would not play a game if trackers were useless.

It isnt my fault you cant think for yourself here.

Noaani wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani
So if tracking is useless in an MMO you won't play it?
If tracking is not available you won't play it either?

If an MMO developer decided that their 0layers wouldn't have access to objective data, no, I wouldn't play it.

This shouldnt be news to you, I've told you this a number of times. I mean, I know you hardly read anything, but it is something I have said in reply to you enough times that I assumed it must have made it through at some point.

But it isnt just that I wouldn't play a game without players having access to objective data. I also wouldn't play one where players are required to use a tracker.

These are not things developers should be deciding for players. They are decisions that each player should make in regards to how they wish to play a game.

Quite honestly, I am constantly shocked that people would have any objection to that at all.

This makes no sense, you have been arguing about trackers forever, and devs having to make content around trackers so therefor it requires trackers. Why are you lying?

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani
So if tracking is useless in an MMO you won't play it?
If tracking is not available you won't play it either?

If an MMO developer decided that their 0layers wouldn't have access to objective data, no, I wouldn't play it.

This shouldnt be news to you, I've told you this a number of times. I mean, I know you hardly read anything, but it is something I have said in reply to you enough times that I assumed it must have made it through at some point.

But it isnt just that I wouldn't play a game without players having access to objective data. I also wouldn't play one where players are required to use a tracker.

These are not things developers should be deciding for players. They are decisions that each player should make in regards to how they wish to play a game.

Quite honestly, I am constantly shocked that people would have any objection to that at all.

This makes no sense, you have been arguing about trackers forever, and devs having to make content around trackers so therefor it requires trackers. Why are you lying?

I'm not.

My argument has always been those wanting trackers should have them, those not wanting them should not have them.

You just like to bring the discussion in to side tangents that make no real sense, and in an effort to educate you, you seem to just be confused (it's hard to educate someone about a topic they are already set in their mind about).

You also like to make things up, and you then seem to actually believe those things you make up. This is actually a dangerous charasteric, it is perhaps something you may want to put some time in to correcting.

Aerlana

Nooani spoke that designing fight without tracker in mind would lead to fight to be quite easy.
Not that fight have to be designed around tracker... which would be obviously stupid.

To take it another way :
Design a fight around range DPS : melee DPS will probably a hard time, and even be out of any meta for this fight.
The opposite would be "design a fight witout range DPS in mind" : It can go on two way : or range are overpowered, or the fight doesn't offer nothing specific for being a range DPS, so... why playing range?

Devs have to keep in mind there will be range, melee, magical/cast and instant DPS. but avoid to design fight around some or one of them.

The problem is always... Freedom of players about how they enjoy a game, how they have fun.

@Noaani

"The only way trackers could be useless is if they have no data"

Assume there is a way for trackers to be available and also useless.
Do you not play the game as a result.

@Noaani

So you want those without trackers to be less competitively viable, or not? How much so "less competitive"?

Do you only play games where you can use a Tracker and get an advantage over those without one or not?

Do you want content to be static enough you can beat it with Trackers or not?

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani
So if tracking is useless in an MMO you won't play it?
If tracking is not available you won't play it either?

If an MMO developer decided that their 0layers wouldn't have access to objective data, no, I wouldn't play it.

This shouldnt be news to you, I've told you this a number of times. I mean, I know you hardly read anything, but it is something I have said in reply to you enough times that I assumed it must have made it through at some point.

But it isnt just that I wouldn't play a game without players having access to objective data. I also wouldn't play one where players are required to use a tracker.

These are not things developers should be deciding for players. They are decisions that each player should make in regards to how they wish to play a game.

Quite honestly, I am constantly shocked that people would have any objection to that at all.

This makes no sense, you have been arguing about trackers forever, and devs having to make content around trackers so therefor it requires trackers. Why are you lying?

I'm not.

My argument has always been those wanting trackers should have them, those not wanting them should not have them.

You just like to bring the discussion in to side tangents that make no real sense, and in an effort to educate you, you seem to just be confused (it's hard to educate someone about a topic they are already set in their mind about).

You also like to make things up, and you then seem to actually believe those things you make up. This is actually a dangerous charasteric, it is perhaps something you may want to put some time in to correcting.

No your argument is devs can't stop trackers and its going to influence gameplay and there for devs will have to make content with trackers in mind. Therefor requiring tracker use int he game as a requirement to clear content.

As usual you have bad takes, this is a pattern like I've said before.

Aerlana wrote: »

Nooani spoke that designing fight without tracker in mind would lead to fight to be quite easy.
Not that fight have to be designed around tracker... which would be obviously stupid.

To take it another way :
Design a fight around range DPS : melee DPS will probably a hard time, and even be out of any meta for this fight.
The opposite would be "design a fight witout range DPS in mind" : It can go on two way : or range are overpowered, or the fight doesn't offer nothing specific for being a range DPS, so... why playing range?

Devs have to keep in mind there will be range, melee, magical/cast and instant DPS. but avoid to design fight around some or one of them.

The problem is always... Freedom of players about how they enjoy a game, how they have fun.

If you are designing a fight with trackers you are designing a fight with trackers. You are simply trying to dance around and say it isn't but it is.

@Noaani

What if trackers were an in-game item that required players wear something to feed info to it? What if the tracker and info-generator used up space and resources that could go elsewhere? What if it was limited, such that certain effects do not show up on the tracker as part of the game's content and challenge?
On top of tracking not offering much of an advantage or no advantage, actually a DISADVANTAGE compared to those that can use something like 'Inspect', Communication, Intuition, Reason, et cetera and simply play the game engaged? Thus, they can use that "Equipment Slot", attention span, 'encumberance', on something more useful?

Would this be the deal breaker?

Strevi

Noaani wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani
You haven't answered whether you'd play an MMO where Tracking is useless.

Yes I did. If you had been paying attention to the discussion (going back to your first few days here), you would have seen the answer.

I said I wouldn't play a game where players do not have access to objective data. Since the only way trackers could be useless is if they have no data, and since if players have data, trackers have data, saying I would not play a game if players have no data is the exact same thing as saying I would not play a game if trackers were useless.

It isnt my fault you cant think for yourself here.

I am not sure what objective data is as the alternative would be subjective data.
But if that is about accuracy, I want to add that Steven reduced the information available to enemies and still shows it to allies, because information is important

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nameplate#Health

With regards to seeing another player's health: As you know their name plate will deteriorate or give you an indication of like hey they've taken damage they're significantly injured, but you're not going to get a percentage. You're not gonna get an exact bar value, unless you're in their party or in their raid.[4] – Steven Sharif

But health and damage are only the part of DPS meter, which is only a subset of combat trackers, as I understand it from this thread.
And having that information about what happened during a raid, at each moment and investigate it can be an interesting activity.

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani

"The only way trackers could be useless is if they have no data"

Assume there is a way for trackers to be available and also useless.
Do you not play the game as a result.

I assume by trackers being available, you mean they have a feed of objective data. Since this is a fantasy that doesn't follow logic, I have no opinion on the matter.

Noaani

So you want those without trackers to be less competitively viable, or not? How much so "less competitive"?

Do you only play games where you can use a Tracker and get an advantage over those without one or not?

Do you want content to be static enough you can beat it with Trackers or not?

I only play MMO's if there is a tracker for me to use, and generally prefer it if one is available to all players that wish to use one.

If a tracker is available to all, and some opt to not use one, I am not concerned if that gives me an edge over them or not. They make the decision to not use it, which they are entitled to do, but all decisions have consequences.

Actively using a tracker is only really a direct advantage at the group or raid level. If you do not use a tracker, but still wish to be as objectively good at your class as you can be, you can achieve that via assistance from someone that uses a tracker, you do not need to use one yourself. From your perspective, this is not a whole lot different to getting assistance from someone that doesn't use a tracker - so is not something anyone should take issue with.

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani

What if trackers were an in-game item that required players wear something to feed info to it? What if the tracker and info-generator used up space and resources that could go elsewhere? What if it was limited, such that certain effects do not show up on the tracker as part of the game's content and challenge?
On top of tracking not offering much of an advantage or no advantage, actually a DISADVANTAGE compared to those that can use something like 'Inspect', Communication, Intuition, Reason, et cetera and simply play the game engaged? Thus, they can use that "Equipment Slot", attention span, 'encumberance', on something more useful?

Would this be the deal breaker?

If all it takes to have access to a tracker is to equip an item, groups and raids will simply require players have and equip that item as a condition of entry. This removes player choice.

Having it limited, and indeed having it use up a resource, is in itself fine. In fact, that is the basis for my guild based tracker suggestion. It is limited to only those in your guild, and takes up a guild perk.

This is all done on the guild level rather than the player or character level, because a tracker is more of a benefit to the guild than the player, players tend to already join guilds with like minded players, and any attempt to put the ability to opt in or out of a tracker at the individual level will result in the above situation where it is required to be bought along on content.

Taking this out of the hands of the individual and placing it in the hands of the guild means no one can really require it, and even if they did, since the tracker only works with others within your guild, it would be pointless. Individual players still have the choice of using trackers or not, it is just a choice that is a factor of their choice of guild.

Noaani wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani

"The only way trackers could be useless is if they have no data"

Assume there is a way for trackers to be available and also useless.
Do you not play the game as a result.

I assume by trackers being available, you mean they have a feed of objective data. Since this is a fantasy that doesn't follow logic, I have no opinion on the matter.

And since you don't have an opinion on games you don't play, you would not play that game.

Noaani wrote:

Sapiverenus wrote:

Noaani

So you want those without trackers to be less competitively viable, or not? How much so "less competitive"?

Do you only play games where you can use a Tracker and get an advantage over those without one or not?

Do you want content to be static enough you can beat it with Trackers or not?

I only play MMO's if there is a tracker for me to use, and generally prefer it if one is available to all players that wish to use one.

Right. . . you're not much of a market and don't really enjoy video games lmao. Even I play some League of Legends.

Have you thought about what you actually enjoy? SCUM has a tracker btw. Most advanced simulated health tracker in a game. Might be more your style.

Noaani wrote:

If a tracker is available to all, and some opt to not use one, I am not concerned if that gives me an edge over them or not. They make the decision to not use it, which they are entitled to do, but all decisions have consequences.

Actively using a tracker is only really a direct advantage at the group or raid level. If you do not use a tracker, but still wish to be as objectively good at your class as you can be, you can achieve that via assistance from someone that uses a tracker, you do not need to use one yourself. From your perspective, this is not a whole lot different to getting assistance from someone that doesn't use a tracker - so is not something anyone should take issue with.

The issue I have is with how you want the game to be designed. The 'fantasy' where Trackers aren't really useful would stop you from playing because that is literally all you say you care about. . . and it would appeal to many many others. . .

Why do you even play MMOs? Shouldn't you be playing a sim?

Noaani wrote:

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani

What if trackers were an in-game item that required players wear something to feed info to it? What if the tracker and info-generator used up space and resources that could go elsewhere? What if it was limited, such that certain effects do not show up on the tracker as part of the game's content and challenge?
On top of tracking not offering much of an advantage or no advantage, actually a DISADVANTAGE compared to those that can use something like 'Inspect', Communication, Intuition, Reason, et cetera and simply play the game engaged? Thus, they can use that "Equipment Slot", attention span, 'encumberance', on something more useful?

Would this be the deal breaker?

If all it takes to have access to a tracker is to equip an item, groups and raids will simply require players have and equip that item as a condition of entry. This removes player choice.

Having it limited, and indeed having it use up a resource, is in itself fine. In fact, that is the basis for my guild based tracker suggestion. It is limited to only those in your guild, and takes up a guild perk.

This is all done on the guild level rather than the player or character level, because a tracker is more of a benefit to the guild than the player, players tend to already join guilds with like minded players, and any attempt to put the ability to opt in or out of a tracker at the individual level will result in the above situation where it is required to be bought along on content.

Taking this out of the hands of the individual and placing it in the hands of the guild means no one can really require it, and even if they did, since the tracker only works with others within your guild, it would be pointless. Individual players still have the choice of using trackers or not, it is just a choice that is a factor of their choice of guild.

Right. So if everyone has to wear a one-piece suit that takes up an under-armor layer and replaces another enchant option. . . and all the data goes to someone with a big data collection backpack. . . . that's fine with you? Even if the data feedback is not completely precise based on quality and durability of the one-piece? Top quality and full durability being 99.95% - 99.8% precise I guess.
With certain effects and mechanics not showing up due to that being part of that particular content's challenge? Or the person with the data collection backpack being targetted because they're some Dark Cleric and their Madness drives them to secrecy and silence? Always seeing the thread of information weave through things? So they focus fire the raid leader (you) and everyone wipes with your expensive data collection items destroyed?

You'd still play even if there are disruptive mechanics that disrupt these devices for half a second or more? 2 seconds? 3 seconds? 5 seconds? Maybe the precision drops to 1% then quickly reaches 90% in 1 second but takes 3 more seconds to reach 99.9% precise?

@Noaani
You have no reason to say shit like:
"I'm not concerned if trackers give me an edge over others or not"

but . . .

"I only play MMOs with trackers that are really a distinct advantage at the group or raid level"

You will not play a game with trackers, that aren't a distinct advantage at the raid or group level.

You say bullshit screw tongue shit all the time. Only other screw tongues like talking to you. Do you eat ass lmao? I am beginning to understand better who I am talking to.

Sapiverenus wrote: »

@Noaani
You have no reason to say shit like:
"I'm not concerned if trackers give me an edge over others or not"

but . . .

"I only play MMOs with trackers that are really a distinct advantage at the group or raid level"

You will not play a game with trackers, that aren't a distinct advantage at the raid or group level.

You say bullshit screw tongue shit all the time. Only other screw tongues like talking to you. Do you eat ass lmao? I am beginning to understand better who I am talking to.

He has been caught in a lot of bs, that is what I've ben saying. He actually tried to lie about the content around trackers. The more he talks the more he trips up because he is not coming from a genuine position, and not caring what others what or the devs. Unless they are supporting what he wants.

NO ONE WANTS A GAME MADE AROUND TRACKERS

And whatever is done to make them as ineffective as possible so people think using a tracker is useless is good. Which means no trackers in game is a great first step.

SongRune

Sapiverenus wrote: »

@Noaani
You have no reason to say shit like:
"I'm not concerned if trackers give me an edge over others or not"

but . . .

"I only play MMOs with trackers that are really a distinct advantage at the group or raid level"

You will not play a game with trackers, that aren't a distinct advantage at the raid or group level.

You say bullshit screw tongue shit all the time. Only other screw tongues like talking to you. Do you eat ass lmao? I am beginning to understand better who I am talking to.

I mean, he's explained in the past that the only way to make trackers not be an advantage at the raid or group level is to make the enemies too simplistic or easy for the data to be useful. Perhaps you missed that? I don't recall exactly when you joined the thread. It's not strange for a high-end PvE player to ignore games with simplistic combat.

Trackers are useful for all complex or tactically difficult games. He's not saying "Trackers are useless, so I won't play." He's saying "The only way trackers can be useless is as a RESULT of the game being shit, and I don't play shit games."

And yes, we know, you want him to believe that trackers can be useless without a game being simplistic, and don't understand why he believes that's impossible. But since you haven't convinced him, that wish hasn't changed what HE is saying, or the basis of his statements. So what HE means, is still the "only shit games don't benefit from trackers" (note the direction of causality there, it's not that not having a tracker is the thing makes a game shit, he's saying that the game being shit is the reason that it doesn't have a tracker).

Perhaps you could return to trying to develop a concrete (more "this exactly how such a game would work" than "please imagine if it were possible") example of why his carefully considered perspective is wrong?

@SongRune

Why are you jumping in to defend him?

I asked questions and want Noaani to answer them.

If someone wants to play a certain kind of game that is fine.
But If trackers are in Ashes of Creation I'd like them to be similar to how I outlined them in my last post.

Perhaps you could let him answer my questions instead of asking me to change it?

Or are you going to claim those beliefs as your own so I can start interrogating them?

Just as I'm fine with Bard being in the game, but I don't want Bard to dominate the game. Hence some of my Bard suggestions that can be found elsewhere, for more out-of-combat/out-of-raid utility on Bard.

Just as I'm fine with Ranger being in the game, but I don't want Ranger to dominate the game. Hence some of my Ranger suggestions that can be found elsewhere, for more out-of-combat/out-of-raid utility on Ranger.

Just as I do not want classes to be entirely group or raid focused, I do not want Trackers to be entirely group or raid focused, and do not want them to dominate the meta for viability or be 'required'. In fact, I've thought of several ways the game could be better that is in direct conflict with the existence of trackers.
I've imagined several ways the game could be improved that also makes trackers less useful, and have imagined several ways limited information may be used as integral to gameplay. . . integral to power dynamics and to immersion. . . integral to class fantasy. . . integral to fun. . . expanding viable and sometimes necessary strategies and tactics . . . for a better game.
And I've talked about these things in this very thread already.

If none of that matters to you then you are selfish and greedy.

Limits to information and information acquisition is a rich source of gameplay mechanics that add to the depth and fun of the game.

I'll add to my questions for @Noaani:

Can you imagine a game besides MMOs where Trackers are useful?
Do you play them or not?

This is an extension of:

Sapiverenus wrote:

The issue I have is with how you want the game to be designed. The 'fantasy' where Trackers aren't really useful would stop you from playing because that is literally all you say you care about. . . and it would appeal to many many others. . .

Why do you even play MMOs? Shouldn't you be playing a sim?

Sapiverenus wrote: »

"I only play MMOs with trackers that are really a distinct advantage at the group or raid level"

I never said this.

Why are you having to lie in order to make an argument here?

You have taken two statements and conflated them.

I said I will only plan an MMO if it has a tracker. Fortunately, literally every MMO ever made has had a tracker for those that want to use one, so this has never been an issue.

I also said - s a different statement - that trackers are only really an advantage at the guild level. This is because at the individual level, a player doesnt need to use a tracker in order to get the benefit of using a tracker. What this statement means in practice is that if one person in a guild is using a tracker, the guild is using a tracker.

I also said I prefer games where trackers are easily available to anyone that wants to use one.

Now, if you are playing a game where trackers are freely available, and you have a guild of 50 players wanting to take on the same content I take on, someone in that guild will be running a tracker. It would be statistically improbable for that to not be the case, and indeed I have doubts you would be able to even create such a guild on purpose in most games.

So, if one person in every guild has a tracker, and if trackers are an advantage at the guild level more than the individual level, I dont have an advantage over anyone going after the same content as me and my guild.

I know that doesnt fit your narrative, but that is how it is.