IMPORTANCE OF AMMUNITION IN THE RANGER CLASS ARCHETI

Good afternoon, I open this discussion to be able to talk about the ammunition in the ranger class and why it is important that it be implemented, giving importance at the same time to the class of gathering wood and other minerals to be able to create ammunition of variable qualities with special effects for ranger class attacks, giving effects or boost to elemental skills, etc.

That they can be crafted and traded in the game market and depending on time in some regions to find quality materials for their creation.

In my opinion, I understand what many indicate that it is something that limits the ranger a lot, the detail is that I understand that they indicate all those disadvantages because they compare them with the other classes, without taking into account that the rangers and other classes of damage to distance have a style and soul different from the others, this is a class of physical or elemental damage of mechanical effort of the character's body causing damage at a distance in which he uses a bow of any possible material that is available or there may even be weapons of fire too, its not like magic which can be instant or anything like that, ammo would add some interesting complexity not to mention the added effects that can be depending on what ammo is used.

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Cat Quiver

Asgerr wrote: »

Final Fantasy XIV a failure? Lol.

You left out where they said 1.0, which was a failure.
Anyway ammo on paper sounds nice but once you reach a certain level/amount of money it basically just becomes an extra money sink/bag space that adds mild flavor in exchange for a mild inconvenience. A "spell stance" ability to change ammo types or tying it to a piece of equipment like a quiver would be a better way to go about it in my opinion.

TheDarkSorcerer

Why do you want to suck the fun out of the game? I don't want to use my 2-3h of gameplay after a long day of work to chop wood JUST so i can actually play and enjoy the game. Let me PvP in peace without making it a chore to go chop wood everytime i login.

Sapiverenus

Asgerr wrote: »

@Rhorden

The one issue I have with all of your idea? It seems to hinder only one class.

Would you have a Fighter needing to sharpen his weapons in order to even use his basic attack?

I would put that modifier on edged weapons, yes. For a world with super-strength and super-toughness I don't think flimsy swords are a great choice though.. . . especially with the abundance of metal armor.

Would you have a Mage having to run back to town to regain his MP in order to user basic attacks?

Preparing mana crystals and reagents would be quite neat actually. . .

Would you have a Bard go back to town to buy strings for his Lute in order to do basic attacks?

Anything can be instrumental but besides that, this may be too obnoxious, maybe not. It's a light hearted character so some light hearted gameplay may be more appealing. . . Then again carrying 100 strings is very little weight and space, and it lends itself to a certain kind of gameplay where getting hit disrupts the BUFFS which is VERY GOOD.

I LIKE IT. Great suggestion.

Do you have a Cleric going back to town to attend mass to regain MP and go sharpen his weapons too, in order to use any basic attack or skills?

I have had this idea already. Go to 'holy places', pilgrimage, et cetera to level up and perhaps retain power.. . . sounds good. Mana is more an extension of the Mind and exertion I think, so that is its own thing in my opinion. Its own thing, like Mages are their own thing.
I imagine XP for Clerics can be tied to questing and their influence on the world moreso than other classes.

If we're going to apply this to the Ranger, it should then be applied to all classes, or the Ranger somehow ends up being that one class which inexcusably needs to spend far more money than any other to function.

And if you apply it to all classes, where do you draw the line? Do you wanna be going back to town every three or four pulls of mobs, because you ran out of whatever ressources your archetype uses?

That is not fun gameplay. It's cool RP-wise, but it makes for incredibly tedious gameplay and just prevents you from going out and exploring since you might just run out of your basic-attack-ressource, and will just get stomped by mobs once you can't fight back.

Arrows can be retrieved, sharpening can use any rock, Mages have loads of options. . . though they're taking the "Elementalist" angle rather than "Wizard". . . . whatever.
Clerics praying is pretty normal and their 'constraints' can be more or less infrequent . . .
Bards are a bit of a knot but they can have a lot of out-of-combat utilities and perhaps use random items as instruments. . . maybe have 20 instruments? 100? Something ridiculous. . . I imagined Bards can sing to trees and they fall and separate into the shape that is asked of them, so instruments could be a dime a dozen. . . stole that from the Bean book series that's parallel to Ender's Game series.

So how about it?

Aerlana

Asgerr wrote: »

Final Fantasy XIV a failure? Lol. We found the WoW Andy (who btw also had ammo up to a certain expansion)

As said by cat quiver... 1.0 and ARR have lot of differences in gameplay design... and "a realm reborn" is not a random name... And... he spoke about "there were ammunitions" ... or there is no ammunition from FFXIV : ARR :-°

For me, a game, to be fun, have to first feel good while we controll. Amunation can be a good thing, or a chore ... a burden.
collecting reagint/arrow just "to do it" was never fun, and most tabletop RPG reduced the spell reagent a lot, and the ammunitions while still there, are just a standart formality just to say "hey, it is kind of realist right?" (With lot of GM i know don't even care about it, including arrows in the normal spending of characters with food, and such things)

I will play summoner, but i really wish for ranger enjoyments they won't have to deal with it... (And i know some people enjoying a lot this kind of class... that dislike to have to deal with arrow if it is just a simple consumable to deal with)

Rhorden

Asgerr wrote: »

@Rhorden

The one issue I have with all of your idea? It seems to hinder only one class.

Would you have a Fighter needing to sharpen his weapons in order to even use his basic attack? Would you have a Mage having to run back to town to regain his MP in order to user basic attacks? Would you have a Bard go back to town to buy strings for his Lute in order to do basic attacks? Do you have a Cleric going back to town to attend mass to regain MP and go sharpen his weapons too, in order to use any basic attack or skills?

If we're going to apply this to the Ranger, it should then be applied to all classes, or the Ranger somehow ends up being that one class which inexcusably needs to spend far more money than any other to function.

And if you apply it to all classes, where do you draw the line? Do you wanna be going back to town every three or four pulls of mobs, because you ran out of whatever ressources your archetype uses?

That is not fun gameplay. It's cool RP-wise, but it makes for incredibly tedious gameplay and just prevents you from going out and exploring since you might just run out of your basic-attack-ressource, and will just get stomped by mobs once you can't fight back.

"Would you have a Fighter needing to sharpen his weapons in order to even use his basic attack?"
No. Ever heard of a club? The fighter is holding his weapon, he's not expending material to do damage. It's not a limited supply item. You can still swing swing it if it's dull. How many arrows can you shoot if none are in your quiver. Did you play WoW? Do you remember the sharpening stones? If you were willing to take the time to sharpen your weapon you could do more damage than someone that didn't want to bother with it, which is fair. The comparison you are trying to make isn't balanced, it's apples to oranges.

"Would you have a Mage having to run back to town to regain his MP in order to user basic attacks?"
No. The concept of mana is that it is like a well spring inside of you that replenishes on its own. Much like energy, or a life force, it is part of you. If you swing an axe do you have a limited number of swings? Yes. You will eventually become exhausted and unable to swing it again but, if you wait a bit and recoup your energy you can swing it again. You ever seen a quiver fill up by itself? Again, apples to oranges.

"Would you have a Bard go back to town to buy strings for his Lute in order to do basic attacks?"
No. He should have had extras with him. You play an instrument? I do. A guitar, and anyone that plays an instrument knows very early on you always carry back up parts. It's just logical and common sense. On the other hand I never really considered the bards instrument strings breaking as a mechanic since that is his weapon. All weapons take durability damage anyways and need frequent repairs. The lutes counterpart is the bow, not the arrows so to that effect it would be the bowstring breaking. In that same line of thinking a bards weapon doesn't fire physical projectiles at the enemy. Again, apples to oranges.

"Do you have a Cleric going back to town to attend mass to regain MP and go sharpen his weapons too, in order to use any basic attack or skills?"
So for the MP, look at the mage. It's the exact same thing. Religion is a belief, a faith, you have in you. It's not something you buy, craft or carry.

"If we're going to apply this to the Ranger, it should then be applied to all classes, or the Ranger somehow ends up being that one class which inexcusably needs to spend far more money than any other to function."

I do think you're right that these types of mechanics should apply to all classes and they pretty much do, except for the ranger. The ranger is getting a pass in AoC. All the other classes have their types of weapons function as they should. Yet the bow needs no arrows? Tell me, what extra items do the other classes need to be able to carry out their roles?

And if you apply it to all classes, where do you draw the line? Do you wanna be going back to town every three or four pulls of mobs, because you ran out of whatever ressources your archetype uses?

1) If your hunter/ranger runs out of arrows/bullets every few pulls then you need to kick that guy because he's trolling you at that point.
2) What you are asking is irrelevant because the lines have been drawn and they do apply this to all classes. If your mana user runs out of mana in the middle of a fight and you don't have any flasks left do you just go *poof* and suddenly have a full mana pool? That mana allows a caster to do his attack, just like the arrow allows the ranger to do his.
3) No one is running back every "three or four pulls of mobs" because that was never a problem.

"That is not fun gameplay. It's cool RP-wise, but it makes for incredibly tedious gameplay and just prevents you from going out and exploring since you might just run out of your basic-attack-ressource, and will just get stomped by mobs once you can't fight back."

1) Not fun? According to who?
2) Cool RP-wise? According to who?
3) Tedious gameplay? According to who?
4) "prevents you from going out and exploring since you might just run out of your basic-attack-ressource"
WTF?! Have you EVER played a hunter all? If you have then you know what you are saying is disingenuous and intentionally misleading or you're being deliberately obtuse. Making that statement leads me to believe you have no idea what you are talking about. That exact same statement could be said for a mage, priest, warlock or any other caster class that runs out of mana and doesn't have any mana pots and gets jumped again. Or a physical damage dealer that has his weapon break because he didn't want to waste time repairing it. It all comes down to someone not preparing. Not a game design issue, a bad player issue.
Not once in the decade + that I played wow did I ever run out of ammunition. If a ranger class does and dies, then he earned it. Just like any other class.

Bowman class VS all others -
The difference with the ranger is that it's a physical damage class that does damage outside of melee range. In order to do that damage it requires expending materials. The bow is the weapon as the sword is the weapon. Does the sword hit objects 30 yards away? No and neither does the bow. It's the arrow that hits the object. For the sword to do that you would have to throw it. Should you have to pick up the sword to start doing damage again? Yes obviously. That's where the arrow comes in and why it fits outside the rules of melee users. Mana users go in the opposite direction as they can do damage with no physical object, rangers can't and that's why it doesn't make sense to have a ranger with no arrows.
I gave several examples on how it would be far less "tedious", cut down on time, costs and avoid using any bag space. Maybe try addressing those or providing something better.

A lot of people like me want ammo in the game and a lot don't. I made my post to ask for ideas to find a good middle ground but it looks more like some of the people that don't want it won't even bother to attempt to find a good solution. This wasn't a post for a debate on if it should be in the game or not, it was to spark creative conversation.

novercalis

Euthenasia wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Unlimited arrows is like unlimited mana for a mage.
Both should have limits and not be eternally full.
Keeping track of arrows and not running out is part of paying attention and not mindlessly face rolling the keyboard.

So mages should need to go back to town to refill mana?

UO system - Spells requires components. Stock up.

CROW3

novercalis wrote: »

UO system - Spells requires components. Stock up.

That was just an Ultima thing. Checking your backpack for a sprite icon of 60 mandrake among all the other reagents. So. much. fun. 🙄

I like equipping before a long exploration run, but there’s a point where immersion with my Ranger ends and immersion with an obsessive-compulsive librarian begins. IMO, I think Steven is drawing the line on the appropriate side of immersive Ranger experience.

wintertide

As a long time ranger player, I am ambivalent when it comes to ammunition. I've played it with, and without. Ammunition tracking probably works better when archery isn't the primary means of damage dealing.

Halae

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

Yes to ammo but only when all the other classes have consumeables aswell.

If I could offer an idea based on this?

My suggestion is that every weapon type should have an "enhancement". For ranged weapons like crossbows and bows that can be unique ammunition, like explosive or poisonous arrows. For swords or maces that can be a weapon coating like a poison or flaming oil that gives your weapon an extra effect for a certain number of hits. For a magical weapon like a wand or orb that can be a tuning crystal that hypercharges it in a specific way for the next X number of attacks.

But all of these would be enhancements. No tracking of baseline ammunition; a weapon always works at a minimum degree of competence that you can buff up using these effects. I think that'd achieve a happy medium of providing equipment management for those who like ammunition structures without requiring them for you to be useful at all; if you run out, you're still able to function, even if it's at a reduced capacity.

AidanKD

I would only ever consider it acceptable to add ammo if every class had an equivalent thing to have to keep on top of. But durability makes the most sense.

I think add the visual quiver for bow users, but honestly what's the point of ammunition. I am happy for consumable/on cool-down (next attack, next x attacks do this bonus effect) - but that really is more of an augment if anything.

Adding faff for the sake of faff I think we are past that. The game is going to be plenty complex with all its systems and ammo is one thing we can live without I think.

NoMadder

prymortal wrote: »

Final Fantasy XIV 1.0 & New World both had AMMO. Both showed people who can't think the problems & reasons its not needed. From time, effort & cost other classes didn't have, To running out in battle - Later patched in New World due to Hindsight when in fact if you just took a second to think about it in the first place it could of been avoided.

If you have not played those 2 games, be thankful, There are reasons they are failures & ammo is just 1 of them.

New World still has ammo mate... not sure what your point is?

SirChancelot

I feel like it would be cool to have an ammo equipment slot just so you could choose different types and effects, but to have to have stacks and stacks to be useful long term... Hard pass.

mozsta69

That's a tricky one. If you limit the ranged attack of one class in a similar fashion. One thing for sure it will kick of some serious controversy lol.

Tragnar

I think arrow management is an important part of any bow using class fantasy, however it is often times implemented in cumbersome way to create a clear gameplay disadvantages for players

I think that equipping a bow should create new arrow slots (not quiver slots) and you can equip in there different types of arrows that you can recraft (just an immersive rename for repair) the arrows you shot in similar gameplay time like warriors need to repair their weapons/shields

recrafting arrows could use materials, but in lesser extent than crafting an entirely new arrow

Vaknar

Like many things, once Alpha Two has been released and the game is in all of our hands, it will be easier to form opinions on these things! You never know which opinions may change once actually playing the game.

If we receive overwhelming feedback during testing that players want ammunition, then we will of course make the consideration!

Mag7spy

People out here being like we need to make this one class annoying to play just cause for no reason.

This is the appropriate time to say it, this is a mmorpg not a FPS or Survival game.

insomnia

no. It was a bad idea in wow, and it still is. You had to waste an entire bag slot on arrows. Plus if you forgot to get some and went into a dungeon, you were screwed

novercalis

Basic AMMO - unlimited
Baseline Damage. (Example 100 damage + Dex Bonus)

Now to use Fire, Poison, Explosion Arrow - YOU NEED TO BUY THOSE

Skills have 2 triggers - Basic and w/ added bonus for special arrows.

HOW IT WOULD LOOK

Dex = 100

Skill Name: Rain of Arrows
range 60m

PROMPT 1:
Fire a hail of arrows that deals baseline damage (100+Dex) times (bonus modifier let's say 10) in a small radius of 5m

PROMPT2 :
Bonus Ammo: If Explosive Arrows are used
A Thunderous rain of arrows is shot
consumes: 1-5 explosive arrow
Bonus Damage - Deals X amount of dmg, Radius size increase.
Charge - Charge up to 5 explosive arrows to launch, increase the size for each arrow.

Prompt 1 Math
(TOTAL DAMAGE = (100+100x)10 = 2000 damage)

Prompt 2 Math
Tooltip for Explosive Arrow = Deals an extra 25 damage each. Inflicts Burn Damage

it added an additional 125 damage and increased the radius size to 25m
also deals burn damage, 5 ticks of 5 per arrow.
5x25 = 125

Full Math

Baseline skill damage (100) + dex (100) times bonus mod of (10)
explosive arrow x charge amount (5)
burn damage times charge amount (5).
Radius size increases by 5m per charge (max 25m)

(100+100)x(10)=2000 damage
(25x5)=125 explosive arrows damage
(25x5)=25 burn damage x 5 ticks = 125 total burn damage

2000+125+125=2250

NUMBERS ARE SUBJECTIVES

So any rangers can STILL USE THE SKILL but won't trigger the bonus effects w/o specific ammo in their bag/quiver.

Mag7spy

novercalis wrote: »

Basic AMMO - unlimited
Baseline Damage. (Example 100 damage + Dex Bonus)

Now to use Fire, Poison, Explosion Arrow - YOU NEED TO BUY THOSE

Skills have 2 triggers - Basic and w/ added bonus for special arrows.

HOW IT WOULD LOOK

Dex = 100

Skill Name: Rain of Arrows
range 60m

PROMPT 1:
Fire a hail of arrows that deals baseline damage (100+Dex) times (bonus modifier let's say 10) in a small radius of 5m

PROMPT2 :
Bonus Ammo: If Explosive Arrows are used
A Thunderous rain of arrows is shot
consumes: 1-5 explosive arrow
Bonus Damage - Deals X amount of dmg, Radius size increase.
Charge - Charge up to 5 explosive arrows to launch, increase the size for each arrow.

Prompt 1 Math
(TOTAL DAMAGE = (100+100x)10 = 2000 damage)

Prompt 2 Math
Tooltip for Explosive Arrow = Deals an extra 25 damage each. Inflicts Burn Damage

it added an additional 125 damage and increased the radius size to 25m
also deals burn damage, 5 ticks of 5 per arrow.
5x25 = 125

Full Math

Baseline skill damage (100) + dex (100) times bonus mod of (10)
explosive arrow x charge amount (5)
burn damage times charge amount (5).
Radius size increases by 5m per charge (max 25m)

(100+100)x(10)=2000 damage
(25x5)=125 explosive arrows damage
(25x5)=25 burn damage x 5 ticks = 125 total burn damage

2000+125+125=2250

NUMBERS ARE SUBJECTIVES

So any rangers can STILL USE THE SKILL but won't trigger the bonus effects w/o specific ammo in their bag/quiver.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

StewBad

I'm seeing a lot of "if you're gonna do that to me, everyone else should have it done too" which is a very toddler-like response, in my opinion. It's like saying everyone should have to do the same quest to get the best armor, even if their archetype/class is different. What is good for one, is not necessarily good for the other.

Archetypes are not the same. They do not function the way the others do.

I, personally, am a fan of ammo. I do not think that the mechanic for rangers, or anyone using a bow, should be unlimited arrows with no explanation of why, and I seriously doubt there will be an acceptable creation of "lore" behind why every bow on Verra doesn't require arrows. I'll keep an open mind while I wait for this lore. As to those who are talking about the other archetypes/classes that will use a bow as a secondary weapon; they are not meant to use a bow as a primary - so with unlimited ammo, what would you suggest be the modifier that would stop them from dpsing as well as a Ranger? And before you say "the skills that Rangers have", keep in mind that a Ranger specializes in bows and even at base DPS, should be better (or do more damage) with a bow than any non-ranger archetype base class.

Before the trolls come out, I do understand how tedious, monotonous and undesirable of a time sink it can be. I have experienced it, I personally enjoyed it, and I understand those who do/did not. There have been some decent suggestions as a middle ground, so i'll offer mine.

1. In lieu of ammo, there could be an "attack counter" that allows the ranger to have a set amount of basic attacks before needing to recharge. (similar to the quick shot skill from the last dev update). This would allow for no ammo being required, but would put a soft cap on an otherwise infinite attack capability with no ammo required.

2. I like the quivers. More specifically, quivers that hold ammo separate from your actual inventory, and have their own equipment slot. Crafting higher quality arrows, or applying poison to arrows (given the secondary rogue archetype) would be a cool mechanic, but then we reach the question of how many poisoned arrows will you have? Should you just craft a weak poison (weak only because rogue was a secondary archetype) that you can apply to "x" amount of arrows based on the quality of the poison? I do not, however, like the crafting of magical arrows. I think magical arrows should be limited to the secondary archetype and augmenting that the Ranger chooses.

3. As @CROW3 stated:

...the Ranger archetype isn’t complete. They were showing off basic ranged attacks and threw some of the active Ranger abilities in. The class isn’t done by a long shot.

Lets wait and see what they give us closer to the finishing of the class before we beat our heads against a wall with what-ifs and tantrums.

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