Tab target is just sad

It looked similar to the old ranger video I saw years ago. People play WoW for its nostalgia not for its combat and ashes will not have any nostalgia to benefit from.

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Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you talk to a lot of people they want skill to be involved their game and to matter.

I dont think you read my post very well.

I didnt say what *I* want, I said what developers want.

Players absolutely want a high skill ceiling. I want a high skill ceiling. I did specifically say in the post you quoted that I aren't asking for a low skill ceiling.

Thing is, developers want players being as equal as possible. This isnt just a matter of skill,it is a matter of level progression, gear, everything.

And even when players like you and I say we want a game with a high skill ceiling,we are still only saying that expecting the game to have many players around the same overall power level so that as many fights as possible are as fair as possible.

Basically, while we both say we want a thing, that doesnt mean we want it in place of another thing, even if we dont realize it.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you talk to a lot of people they want skill to be involved their game and to matter.

I dont think you read my post very well.

I didnt say what *I* want, I said what developers want.

Players absolutely want a high skill ceiling. I want a high skill ceiling. I did specifically say in the post you quoted that I aren't asking for a low skill ceiling.

Thing is, developers want players being as equal as possible. This isnt just a matter of skill,it is a matter of level progression, gear, everything.

And even when players like you and I say we want a game with a high skill ceiling,we are still only saying that expecting the game to have many players around the same overall power level so that as many fights as possible are as fair as possible.

Basically, while we both say we want a thing, that doesnt mean we want it in place of another thing, even if we dont realize it.

Read your post completely well, and you seem to be talking for developers which is extremely weird considering you are a player.

And again I don't think you read my post I talk about different levels of skill and barrier to entry being easy...

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you talk to a lot of people they want skill to be involved their game and to matter.

I dont think you read my post very well.

I didnt say what *I* want, I said what developers want.

Players absolutely want a high skill ceiling. I want a high skill ceiling. I did specifically say in the post you quoted that I aren't asking for a low skill ceiling.

Thing is, developers want players being as equal as possible. This isnt just a matter of skill,it is a matter of level progression, gear, everything.

And even when players like you and I say we want a game with a high skill ceiling,we are still only saying that expecting the game to have many players around the same overall power level so that as many fights as possible are as fair as possible.

Basically, while we both say we want a thing, that doesnt mean we want it in place of another thing, even if we dont realize it.

Read your post completely well, and you seem to be talking for developers which is extremely weird considering you are a player.

And again I don't think you read my post I talk about different levels of skill and barrier to entry being easy...

It isn't entry level I am talking about, it is the top level.

As for me "talking for developers", think about it from their perspective for a second.

Would you rather develop a game where most PvP fights are fairly well matched, or where most PvP fights are one sided blowouts?

If the answer is the first (which it should be, you want to retain players), how would you achieve that in an open world setting where players can attack any player they wish?

This problem is literally the reason developers introduced brackets and matchmaking in games where that is suitable. That isnt suitablenin an open world game, and so the only option left (that anyone has come up with, at least), is to try and keep players as close together in over all power as possible.

This isnt just a skill ceiling thing either. It is also a gear issue. It is the reason games like Archeage keep introducing easier means for players to acquire a decent set of gear every 6 - 9 months. If that gear is the minimum players should be expected to have, then there aren't nearly as many stragglers in that specific regard.

And again, this is not to say that there shouldnt be scope for a better player to be "more powerful". I doubt a developer could achieve that, even if they tried. It is a matter of scope as to how much more power that player/character has.

I mean, perhaps you are after a game full of one sided fights, where some people never have a shot at winning in PvP for what ever reason. More power to you if that is what you want, but in an open world game, it isnt exactly going to lead to massive success.

Liniker

@maouw @CROW3 I have another similar poll with data from a bigger audience, translation is a bit off since this was written in Portuguese, this is the data

Dizz1

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you talk to a lot of people they want skill to be involved their game and to matter.

I dont think you read my post very well.

I didnt say what *I* want, I said what developers want.

Players absolutely want a high skill ceiling. I want a high skill ceiling. I did specifically say in the post you quoted that I aren't asking for a low skill ceiling.

Thing is, developers want players being as equal as possible. This isnt just a matter of skill,it is a matter of level progression, gear, everything.

And even when players like you and I say we want a game with a high skill ceiling,we are still only saying that expecting the game to have many players around the same overall power level so that as many fights as possible are as fair as possible.

Basically, while we both say we want a thing, that doesnt mean we want it in place of another thing, even if we dont realize it.

Read your post completely well, and you seem to be talking for developers which is extremely weird considering you are a player.

And again I don't think you read my post I talk about different levels of skill and barrier to entry being easy...

It isn't entry level I am talking about, it is the top level.

As for me "talking for developers", think about it from their perspective for a second.

Would you rather develop a game where most PvP fights are fairly well matched, or where most PvP fights are one sided blowouts?

If the answer is the first (which it should be, you want to retain players), how would you achieve that in an open world setting where players can attack any player they wish?

This problem is literally the reason developers introduced brackets and matchmaking in games where that is suitable. That isnt suitablenin an open world game, and so the only option left (that anyone has come up with, at least), is to try and keep players as close together in over all power as possible.

This isnt just a skill ceiling thing either. It is also a gear issue. It is the reason games like Archeage keep introducing easier means for players to acquire a decent set of gear every 6 - 9 months. If that gear is the minimum players should be expected to have, then there aren't nearly as many stragglers in that specific regard.

And again, this is not to say that there shouldnt be scope for a better player to be "more powerful". I doubt a developer could achieve that, even if they tried. It is a matter of scope as to how much more power that player/character has.

I mean, perhaps you are after a game full of one sided fights, where some people never have a shot at winning in PvP for what ever reason. More power to you if that is what you want, but in an open world game, it isnt exactly going to lead to massive success.

Agree, that's one of the reasons why I prefer lean to horizontal progression in end game loop it's more easy for players who don't have that much time to play the game and it's help them to feel less far from full geared players and also help they know why they lose the fight and to feel the distance is not far to a good player even it's a illusion to an average player, yeah still can have some vertical progression like +1~+9 weapon do more RNG damage enchantment things that make hardcore players have things to chase and simple bigger numbers in general help them feel they are rewarded through playing the game, so before A2 I feel the information in wiki is good to me about gear progression, but try not to do something like gears become garbage after expansion I feel it's a waste of ideas especially epic/legendary gears.

CROW3

Thanks for sharing that poll, @Liniker.

With the increased respondent pool, it seems clear there is still a super-majority of players (84%) that would play Ashes without having some ideological attachment to the formal category of combat.

It’s a good thread to reference for the next round of ‘If Ashes isn’t action it will fail’ posts.

Mag7spy

Sample size is too small but it clearly shows what people want as I've said with action combat.

Cypher

As a deeply ANTI tab target player, but one who is reasonable, I will say the current system is optimal for Alpha. It needs a bit of refinement before launch of course. But the action-side of this hybrid system is a lot closer to what I wanted than I ever expected them to go. The projectiles are exactly that, projectiles, instead of hitscan. It means they can be actively dodged or blocked instead of the server *telling you* if you block or dodge it based on stats. You can freely shoot with no target, and if something walks into the shot you get a hit. You can move/jump while shooting. The only hybrid part of it is how you’re going to hit your target as long as your reticle is red (and if they don’t dodge it) and right now it seems it can be red even if you’re aiming slightly off to the side of the target which could/should be tightened up a little bit and then I think it would be perfect (for a hybridized system). I can see myself and my group (mostly action players) enjoying the gameplay and I don’t feel like the players who are going to use tab target will have an advantage with the current system, mostly for the projectile reasoning I started with.

Aerlana

about skill cap (that can be already really high with tab, not same kind of skill required than for an action... but we don't try to define which kind of skill is better there...)

imo, a good game, and a game that can gather lot of people have to be "easy to learn, hard to master" .
So yes, it need to have a decently high skill cap. But get it as high as possible to summit ? not sure.

In games like LoL, MMORPG arenas, and so much other small scale PvP games, there is a MMR, so, if you are a bad player you will fight with and against other bad players. if you are excellent, you will fight with and against other excellent, if you are "grand master" then you will fight people you then encounter on tournaments to get the big cash price.

On a MMORPG open world, you won't have such system to try to get some "fair match" allowing to have fun... and improve step by step.
Go on a new game, discover it, be amazed, and a player, that totally hard mastered the game comes, exterminate you with no hope to even understand what happened kill you... ok fine, resurect continue, it happens again. . . You could fast get bored, feeling the skill cap to reach to be able to just play the game is so high you will need hundreds hours of training... you leave the game.

I think for MMORPG, it is needed to avoid to reach too high summit in skill player could deploy, else the open world will be nothing but noob friendly, MMORPGs needs to have fresh new players to come, enjoy, as casual or try to get hardcore, but both need to feel they can still get to their goal even with the 2years, 3 years, 10 years late to come on the game. If those 2, 3 or more years of gameplay experience makes the other players far too strong, most newbies will just drop for another good MMORPG where they don't get rekt every 15 minutes.

Now for action/tab, i have feeling it is a fashion, as trying to get photorealism graphism that were, for many people, the prove of quality, while is now just a question of artistict design, choices and taste. The poll make me think i was true...
First is 5% of people fanatic to one kind, second 17% (and feels that the people saying "tab is better" on first are half on tab half on hybrid on second so both feels like "don't care... i prefer one but i just want a good game" )

There will always be people who are fanatic about topics for video games. and maybe even more true for the complexs MMORPG which have lot of different design choice to do. But for most, people will prefer one thing, and just play if the game is globally good even if there are choices they dislike.
A same gamer can play civilization, doom and LoL at same time, 3 totally different gameplay, 3 totally different kind of skill, 3 totally different pace of gameplay, and enjoying all of them... So i think most video game enjoyers can totally adapt to many different gameplay and enjoy them

As personnal example being for me a proof of what i say :
i totally hate ani-cancel, and loved to play Aion and BnS which have both lot of it...

Mag7spy

Anyone saying skill needs to be capped in a mmorpg and using that as a reason for less action combat versatility is a red flag to me. Instantly the same way they want trackers I'm already seeing an ulterior motive.

Right away I see their argument of bad players will have no chance, or even more so if you have 8 bad players. That has been true for pretty much all decent mmorpgs where they can never win. Between coming down to gear, builds, rotations and such the better players will win and also be more organized. (I'm sure there are examples of broken things that re easy to use if someone follows some guide they found to one shot someone).

So now suddenly skill is coming in question of them saying they are worried the skill cap will be too high, I feel that is more so a problem for them of better players being difficult for them to beat when it comes to the additional layer added on top.

As far as other people that aren't as skilled and getting stomped, when has that ever changed against them fighting a competitive guild that consistently holds territory or wins. All that matters is that there is fun things for them to do and enjoy, a more layered combat means more things for them to work and improve at over time, while having a fun gameplay experience that has some more depth to it on the skill side of things.

Onto the point about high skill with tab one question would have to be asked is why is it high. Is it because you have like 40+ abilities and you are spending time making the perfect built and knowing your rotations and what other players can do. Knowing when you use certain buffs and certain skills at the right time, etc. This seems more knowledge based and I don't refer to it as much as skill. The more things to need to figure out on this side of things of you and other classes and builds this becomes a bigger gate than anything where a casual player can't overcome to begin with.

In terms of a game that has more focus on skill yes it adds more layers of complication to it, but it lowers the amount of unnecessary things and makes it more open for people to have more of a chance in. To me this is a good thing as it is more of a complexity of design without a good reason (atleast in this day and age). IE i have all these skills ok let me spend time figure out what is going to be the most op rotation against this certain class cause i have knowledge on the 40+ abilities between both them.

You remove things that complicate the system while adding other more meaningful game ie action combat that is more available in this day and age. Rather than have 5 different skills that all feel the same and do the same in tab target as in you click and it works on the character you target. And something players need to figure out but what ones are good to use in some rotations or else wise to make it more effective.

All effectively easer to make it to gate keep and have people wonder why they die and be confused. Which goes line in line with tab target and why your issue about confusion on death is more in lines with that. Where action based you have more of a gauge on why you died, or atleast a means to avoid some of the things that may confuse you.

~~~
1. Long story short that not having a chance is nothing new in mmorpgs against better players if you lack experience.
2. The riot mmorpg will be casual if that is what you prefer im sure btw.
3. Tab is more knowledge and hidden complexity over actual skill. Far bigger gate keeper that gives most people no chance of winning

4- You should be well aware of mmorpgs are, BDO the only one imo that has a crazy learning curve tht is nto made easy to learn as well and hard reading what is on the screen for some people.

As long as it isn't as frantic as that game the skill ceiling will still be high and fair for people. The good ones will win and bad will lose as it has always been in a mmorpg.

AoC is a mmorpg, no one is saying the skill ceiling will be like this, if this is what you are assuming you are being disingenuous off that bat trying to argue with extremes which you normally do Noaani

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOZONW-UK0w

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Anyone saying skill needs to be capped in a mmorpg and using that as a reason for less action combat versatility is a red flag to me. Instantly the same way they want trackers I'm already seeing an ulterior motive.

You have this ability to take a reasonable argument, twist it to where it is no longer the argument that was presented to you, and then argue against that position.

No one said remove skill, or make it so bad players can compete with good players. In fact, I specifically said that would not be possible, because literally no matter what a developer does, a good player will always be better than a bad player.

You also somehow seem to have twisted a statement of a lower skill ceiling as being an argument against action combat. Since top end tab combat takes more skill than top end action combat, this is simply you reading in to a statement and finding your own bias, rather than understanding what was being said.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Anyone saying skill needs to be capped in a mmorpg and using that as a reason for less action combat versatility is a red flag to me. Instantly the same way they want trackers I'm already seeing an ulterior motive.

You have this ability to take a reasonable argument, twist it to where it is no longer the argument that was presented to you, and then argue against that position.

No one said remove skill, or make it so bad players can compete with good players. In fact, I specifically said that would not be possible, because literally no matter what a developer does, a good player will always be better than a bad player.

You also somehow seem to have twisted a statement of a lower skill ceiling as being an argument against action combat. Since top end tab combat takes more skill than top end action combat, this is simply you reading in to a statement and finding your own bias, rather than understanding what was being said.

When I say remove skill I never said you are saying REMOVE ALL SKILL. What are you even going on about.

I feel you didn't read my spot again what are you going on about. I literarily talk about tab target with the mount of skills you need to manage and figure out, plus knowing other players creates a more complex loop that can gate keep compared to people that are not as good and ensure those people will always be stomped with like you said not knowing how or why they are losing.

Like you are trying to argue with me but you have or perspective on tab and relation that to action when things work different and are more half and half in hybrid depending....so off the bat you are not looking at it with the right perspective unless AoC goes down the route of tab target mmorpgs and you have 40+ skills but there isn't been a huge indication of having all those skills to use at one given time...

Aerlana

*read the entire 5th page, looking for where "skill capping" is used as argument against action, while you can set up a skill cap quite low in any kind of gameplay for any genre of video game...*

Mag, if at least once, you could try to not to rewrite what people are saying, would be nice...

People are using the "high skill only with action" as argument, and other people are just saying "mmorpg doesn't fit to get insane high level skill cap for [reasons] ... not an argument against action...

Sathrago

Ill be honest it's astonishing how little Blade and Soul references these action combat threads have. I never enjoyed BDO combat as it looked pretty but felt hollow. Blade and soul had well, soul. Disregarding open world scenarios, the arena pvp was the best of the best be it with balance or skill choice..

https://youtu.be/uNZo-ajTPAg

https://youtu.be/TcmKVoYMQWw

Bot

Azherae wrote: »

Foni wrote: »

It looked similar to the old ranger video I saw years ago. People play WoW for its nostalgia not for its combat and ashes will not have any nostalgia to benefit from.

Ashes' selling point is not generally its combat, many people just thought it was.

I wonder if that's frustrating to Steven, in the end... All that Node System work, and people fixated on 'Hybrid Combat' as if we haven't had that for years in many games.

Gameplay will always at its core be highly relevant. All the ideas in the world won't hide poor gameplay.

Aerlana

Sathrago wrote: »

Ill be honest it's astonishing how little Blade and Soul references these action combat threads have. I never enjoyed BDO combat as it looked pretty but felt hollow. Blade and soul had well, soul. Disregarding open world scenarios, the arena pvp was the best of the best be it with balance or skill choice..

I totally support you there. one of my favourite gameplay in MMORPG, the other being Aion.
Also, BNS is probably the ONLY arena PvP i liked to play again and again ... (while i hate it everywhere else ^^')

Bot wrote: »

Gameplay will always at its core be highly relevant. All the ideas in the world won't hide poor gameplay.

Totally true
but here it is not "is poor gameplay ok?" Nobody on this topic defend a boring gameplay all hope an enticing one, feeling good in our hands.

Azherae

Aerlana wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

Ill be honest it's astonishing how little Blade and Soul references these action combat threads have. I never enjoyed BDO combat as it looked pretty but felt hollow. Blade and soul had well, soul. Disregarding open world scenarios, the arena pvp was the best of the best be it with balance or skill choice..

I totally support you there. one of my favourite gameplay in MMORPG, the other being Aion.
Also, BNS is probably the ONLY arena PvP i liked to play again and again ... (while i hate it everywhere else ^^')

Bot wrote: »

Gameplay will always at its core be highly relevant. All the ideas in the world won't hide poor gameplay.

Totally true
but here it is not "is poor gameplay ok?" Nobody on this topic defend a boring gameplay all hope an enticing one, feeling good in our hands.

I think the reason BNS doesn't get much representation is that quite a while back, we got to the 'we don't want a fighting game!' response a lot.

But BNS is a fighting game. BDO is NOT but people think it is, perhaps.

So a lot of people who would enjoy BNS-style combat didn't think it was even worth bringing to a forum conversation. Why rile people up and get shouted down when they already made their perspectives clear?

Aerlana

Would also say that BNS is an average quality game at most, excellent gameplay feeling well, and working well for PvP but also PvE encounter (even if they were quite easy). The gameplay was maybe the only the good thing amongst major topic for a MMORPG quality...

And also... maybe i did misunderstood sathrago, but i feel he points out that from the "action combat" fan nobody used BNS as example, while still defending the action gameplay for AoC.

Personally, i would totally go on this as example if, suddenly, IS decide to go "action combat style" (would be strange, and risky decision... if not suicidal). But also i am one totally satisfied with current situation ^^'

JustVine

Aerlana wrote: »

Would also say that BNS is an average quality game at most, excellent gameplay feeling well, and working well for PvP but also PvE encounter (even if they were quite easy). The gameplay was maybe the only the good thing amongst major topic for a MMORPG quality...

And also... maybe i did misunderstood sathrago, but i feel he points out that from the "action combat" fan nobody used BNS as example, while still defending the action gameplay for AoC.

Personally, i would totally go on this as example if, suddenly, IS decide to go "action combat style" (would be strange, and risky decision... if not suicidal). But also i am one totally satisfied with current situation ^^'

Right but if a lot of the community went 'well we don't want fighting game level combat don't bring up such games in conversation' and BNS literally has a combo counter.... That's why it doesn't get brought up.

Sathrago

JustVine wrote: »

.

Aerlana wrote: »

Would also say that BNS is an average quality game at most, excellent gameplay feeling well, and working well for PvP but also PvE encounter (even if they were quite easy). The gameplay was maybe the only the good thing amongst major topic for a MMORPG quality...

And also... maybe i did misunderstood sathrago, but i feel he points out that from the "action combat" fan nobody used BNS as example, while still defending the action gameplay for AoC.

Personally, i would totally go on this as example if, suddenly, IS decide to go "action combat style" (would be strange, and risky decision... if not suicidal). But also i am one totally satisfied with current situation ^^'

Right but if a lot of the community went 'well we don't want fighting game level combat don't bring up such games in conversation' and BNS literally has a combo counter.... That's why it doesn't get brought up.

I was not suggesting blade and soul or advocating for action combat. I was only pointing out that it was really weird no one brought it up. The game is not a "fighter" it's action combat. They have combo popups for flair but the actual combos are just what anyone would do when multiple abilities synergize. The combat is still skill shots and combo moves like any other action combat game. The one difference perhaps being that if you know how to play your character and run into someone who doesn't, the person that doesn't also doesn't get to play the game. So CC, dodging, counters and landing abilities is much more important than in other games, but that doesn't make it not an action combat game.

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