To the Action Combat Fans

What Action Combat games do you guys consider to be good? Link or reference the game.

Personally, not one game out there has been able to properly provide a good action combat experience, so it is difficult for me to understand why people want Action Combat as the main form of a combat experience, when it's not once been done properly.

Action Combat games always get messed up.

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PapaWhiskey

@Azherae I use to love playing with the healer class in Wildstar. Fun times. The learning curve to master healing was something. For me it was a nice breath of fresh air! Their telegraphs were enjoyable. Althought I can imagine it is not everyones cup of tea. And that is fine.

Wouldnt it be something if Intrepid could surprise us all. Can anyone imagine the Devs creating something that will appeal most of us. We are all hopeful for something engaging! So lets keep the positive vibes!
Hey, I dont care if they take the ideas from MOBAS, FPS, other MMOs, etc.
And if they value Risk and Reward, that should also be applied in some way, shape or form in every aspect, including combat.
What is the risk? What are the rewards? Players need to develop the skills necessary to play their class effectively.
Also, no judgement. Not every player needs to get to an expert level in everything. That is one of the perks of an MMO. Everyone has the opportunity to explore, and pursue what they enjoy.
Some folks only care about their finances in-game, others like to play with friends and family, there are the competitive ones, etc.

One thing is for sure, a lot of people dont want to re-experience the failures or the aspects they dislike from previous MMOs.

No pressure, DEVS!

Be well all!

Azherae

Soul Calibur is a slow game compared to the ones I am talking about.

The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.

So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).

I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER. Can we leave it at that?

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Soul Calibur is a slow game compared to the ones I am talking about.

The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.

So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).

I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER. Can we leave it at that?

That is 2d, there is a lot more decisions in a 3d fighting since you have 8 way run, meaning you have to think of a lot more. But we can leave it at that that wasn't the point anyway.

It was you saying someone could beat me, that you haven't seen play games or understand how competitive he was even though you are aware he is a pve players... Yet me having shown actual stuff and that i was on top of the leaderboard you say I can't win. It isn't even that you are saying he can, it is just this statement in general isn't bound by logic.

If you saw him game, be very competitive, be a good player, also saw him play fighting games and plenty of them.

I'd have no issue, id be im rusty but lets run it. A good challenge is always fun, even more so since its hard to find people on that game now adays. Or me being rusty still gets me kicked out of rooms for winning so i have less people to fight.

Azherae

PapaWhiskey wrote: »

@Azherae I use to love playing with the healer class in Wildstar. Fun times. The learning curve to master healing was something. For me it was a nice breath of fresh air! Their telegraphs were enjoyable. Althought I can imagine it is not everyones cup of tea. And that is fine.

Wouldnt it be something if Intrepid could surprise us all. Can anyone imagine the Devs creating something that will appeal most of us. We are all hopeful for something engaging! So lets keep the positive vibes!
Hey, I dont care if they take the ideas from MOBAS, FPS, other MMOs, etc.
And if they value Risk and Reward, that should also be applied in some way, shape or form in every aspect, including combat.
What is the risk? What are the rewards? Players need to develop the skills necessary to play their class effectively.
Also, no judgement. Not every player needs to get to an expert level in everything. That is one of the perks of an MMO. Everyone has the opportunity to explore, and pursue what they enjoy.
Some folks only care about their finances in-game, others like to play with friends and family, there are the competitive ones, etc.

One thing is for sure, a lot of people dont want to re-experience the failures or the aspects they dislike from previous MMOs.

No pressure, DEVS!

Be well all!

I'm really hoping that we get some good choices for both paths in Healing skills as they promised. I won't mind if the tradeoff for high-healing Action-Heals is having to be close to the target, for example, since this is at least a DECENT threat in PvE. Also, throwing out big sudden heals is an easy way to get hate in a game like this, so you'd have to synergize with your Tank and not just 'oh I'll stand here because my heal is so strong but nothing will ever hit me anyway'.

If enemies have cleaving attacks, even better for balance.

I hope that backline healers get 'consistency' and frontline healers get something LIKE 'power' with the tradeoff of 'danger' and that the PvE design means that the danger isn't something you can just cheese your way out of. I think most people would be happy at that point.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Soul Calibur is a slow game compared to the ones I am talking about.

The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.

So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).

I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER. Can we leave it at that?

That is 2d, there is a lot more decisions in a 3d fighting since you have 8 way run, meaning you have to think of a lot more. But we can leave it at that that wasn't the point anyway.

It was you saying someone could beat me, that you haven't seen play games or understand how competitive he was even though you are aware he is a pve players... Yet me having shown actual stuff and that i was on top of the leaderboard you say I can't win. It isn't even that you are saying he can, it is just this statement in general isn't bound by logic.

If you saw him game, be very competitive, be a good player, also saw him play fighting games and plenty of them.

I'd have no issue, id be im rusty but lets run it. A good challenge is always fun, even more so since its hard to find people on that game now adays. Or me being rusty still gets me kicked out of rooms for winning so i have less people to fight.

Again, I absolutely understand that your experience and conclusions don't match mine.

This is fine. You believe that Noaani would not be good enough at Fighting Games because of supposedly not playing them before, (and apparently somehow because of being a PvE player in your mind, I guess you don't believe the ArcheAge thing?)

I believe Noaani. We don't have to agree on it. I was trying to bridge a gap to common ground. There is none, so we can drop it. Agree to disagree?

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Soul Calibur is a slow game compared to the ones I am talking about.

The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.

So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).

I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER. Can we leave it at that?

That is 2d, there is a lot more decisions in a 3d fighting since you have 8 way run, meaning you have to think of a lot more. But we can leave it at that that wasn't the point anyway.

It was you saying someone could beat me, that you haven't seen play games or understand how competitive he was even though you are aware he is a pve players... Yet me having shown actual stuff and that i was on top of the leaderboard you say I can't win. It isn't even that you are saying he can, it is just this statement in general isn't bound by logic.

If you saw him game, be very competitive, be a good player, also saw him play fighting games and plenty of them.

I'd have no issue, id be im rusty but lets run it. A good challenge is always fun, even more so since its hard to find people on that game now adays. Or me being rusty still gets me kicked out of rooms for winning so i have less people to fight.

Again, I absolutely understand that your experience and conclusions don't match mine.

This is fine. You believe that Noaani would not be good enough at Fighting Games because of supposedly not playing them before, (and apparently somehow because of being a PvE player in your mind, I guess you don't believe the ArcheAge thing?)

I believe Noaani. We don't have to agree on it. I was trying to bridge a gap to common ground. There is none, so we can drop it. Agree to disagree?

Uuhh common ground is randomly saying Noaani plays fighting games without knowing much about him or what games he plays or how he plays. If you are done attempting to get a reaction out of me for no reason on this topic I'm good. Rather keep the conversation realistic than discussing what if things on forums that had nothing to do with the current discussion.

Being which you can have action combat with all the depth of previous mmorpgs....

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Soul Calibur is a slow game compared to the ones I am talking about.

The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.

So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).

I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER. Can we leave it at that?

That is 2d, there is a lot more decisions in a 3d fighting since you have 8 way run, meaning you have to think of a lot more. But we can leave it at that that wasn't the point anyway.

It was you saying someone could beat me, that you haven't seen play games or understand how competitive he was even though you are aware he is a pve players... Yet me having shown actual stuff and that i was on top of the leaderboard you say I can't win. It isn't even that you are saying he can, it is just this statement in general isn't bound by logic.

If you saw him game, be very competitive, be a good player, also saw him play fighting games and plenty of them.

I'd have no issue, id be im rusty but lets run it. A good challenge is always fun, even more so since its hard to find people on that game now adays. Or me being rusty still gets me kicked out of rooms for winning so i have less people to fight.

Again, I absolutely understand that your experience and conclusions don't match mine.

This is fine. You believe that Noaani would not be good enough at Fighting Games because of supposedly not playing them before, (and apparently somehow because of being a PvE player in your mind, I guess you don't believe the ArcheAge thing?)

I believe Noaani. We don't have to agree on it. I was trying to bridge a gap to common ground. There is none, so we can drop it. Agree to disagree?

Uuhh common ground is randomly saying Noaani plays fighting games without knowing much about him or what games he plays or how he plays. If you are done attempting to get a reaction out of me for no reason on this topic I'm good. Rather keep the conversation realistic than discussing what if things on forums that had nothing to do with the current discussion.

Being which you can have action combat with all the depth of previous mmorpgs....

Ok let's try this then, since you are pointing it out.

You just admitted that Soul Calibur is a slower game, but is 3D.

2D Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. 3D games are slower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. You prefer the 3D game (and you think it takes MORE decisions, I think?).

Action Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. Tab Target games are lower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. Noaani prefers Tab Target games.

You don't see me going '3D games are slow and take no skill what are you even talking about everyone knows that 2D games are better because they are fast and require actual reactions and aiming', right?

That's what you sound like, to Noaani.

EDIT: In case unclear, this is my ATTEMPT to move on with the topic while still not 'wasting' the conversation we just had, but I also gotta go stream a 'bot' so back in like 30 I hope.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Soul Calibur is a slow game compared to the ones I am talking about.

The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.

So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).

I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER. Can we leave it at that?

That is 2d, there is a lot more decisions in a 3d fighting since you have 8 way run, meaning you have to think of a lot more. But we can leave it at that that wasn't the point anyway.

It was you saying someone could beat me, that you haven't seen play games or understand how competitive he was even though you are aware he is a pve players... Yet me having shown actual stuff and that i was on top of the leaderboard you say I can't win. It isn't even that you are saying he can, it is just this statement in general isn't bound by logic.

If you saw him game, be very competitive, be a good player, also saw him play fighting games and plenty of them.

I'd have no issue, id be im rusty but lets run it. A good challenge is always fun, even more so since its hard to find people on that game now adays. Or me being rusty still gets me kicked out of rooms for winning so i have less people to fight.

Again, I absolutely understand that your experience and conclusions don't match mine.

This is fine. You believe that Noaani would not be good enough at Fighting Games because of supposedly not playing them before, (and apparently somehow because of being a PvE player in your mind, I guess you don't believe the ArcheAge thing?)

I believe Noaani. We don't have to agree on it. I was trying to bridge a gap to common ground. There is none, so we can drop it. Agree to disagree?

Uuhh common ground is randomly saying Noaani plays fighting games without knowing much about him or what games he plays or how he plays. If you are done attempting to get a reaction out of me for no reason on this topic I'm good. Rather keep the conversation realistic than discussing what if things on forums that had nothing to do with the current discussion.

Being which you can have action combat with all the depth of previous mmorpgs....

Ok let's try this then, since you are pointing it out.

You just admitted that Soul Calibur is a slower game, but is 3D.

2D Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. 3D games are slower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. You prefer the 3D game (and you think it takes MORE decisions, I think?).

Action Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. Tab Target games are lower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. Noaani prefers Tab Target games.

You don't see me going '3D games are slow and take no skill what are you even talking about everyone knows that 2D games are better because they are fast and require actual reactions and aiming', right?

That's what you sound like, to Noaani.

EDIT: In case unclear, this is my ATTEMPT to move on with the topic while still not 'wasting' the conversation we just had, but I also gotta go stream a 'bot' so back in like 30 I hope.

You are missing the point. I say you have have the depth of a mmorpg with action combat. I have clearly started you swap all tab skills to action with the same effect and you have the exact same depth but with action combat.

We also have stated about physical skill and knowledge skill wise (referring as the depth in a tab target game) as both with their own skill, which means it can be combined (not that that is new as action elements have been being added tot ab games for ages).

Noaani says devs can't/ won't do it and thinks players can't handle it.

I say players can handle it and it will create a difficult game....

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Soul Calibur is a slow game compared to the ones I am talking about.

The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.

So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).

I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER. Can we leave it at that?

That is 2d, there is a lot more decisions in a 3d fighting since you have 8 way run, meaning you have to think of a lot more. But we can leave it at that that wasn't the point anyway.

It was you saying someone could beat me, that you haven't seen play games or understand how competitive he was even though you are aware he is a pve players... Yet me having shown actual stuff and that i was on top of the leaderboard you say I can't win. It isn't even that you are saying he can, it is just this statement in general isn't bound by logic.

If you saw him game, be very competitive, be a good player, also saw him play fighting games and plenty of them.

I'd have no issue, id be im rusty but lets run it. A good challenge is always fun, even more so since its hard to find people on that game now adays. Or me being rusty still gets me kicked out of rooms for winning so i have less people to fight.

Again, I absolutely understand that your experience and conclusions don't match mine.

This is fine. You believe that Noaani would not be good enough at Fighting Games because of supposedly not playing them before, (and apparently somehow because of being a PvE player in your mind, I guess you don't believe the ArcheAge thing?)

I believe Noaani. We don't have to agree on it. I was trying to bridge a gap to common ground. There is none, so we can drop it. Agree to disagree?

Uuhh common ground is randomly saying Noaani plays fighting games without knowing much about him or what games he plays or how he plays. If you are done attempting to get a reaction out of me for no reason on this topic I'm good. Rather keep the conversation realistic than discussing what if things on forums that had nothing to do with the current discussion.

Being which you can have action combat with all the depth of previous mmorpgs....

Ok let's try this then, since you are pointing it out.

You just admitted that Soul Calibur is a slower game, but is 3D.

2D Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. 3D games are slower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. You prefer the 3D game (and you think it takes MORE decisions, I think?).

Action Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. Tab Target games are lower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. Noaani prefers Tab Target games.

You don't see me going '3D games are slow and take no skill what are you even talking about everyone knows that 2D games are better because they are fast and require actual reactions and aiming', right?

That's what you sound like, to Noaani.

EDIT: In case unclear, this is my ATTEMPT to move on with the topic while still not 'wasting' the conversation we just had, but I also gotta go stream a 'bot' so back in like 30 I hope.

You are missing the point. I say you have have the depth of a mmorpg with action combat. I have clearly started you swap all tab skills to action with the same effect and you have the exact same depth but with action combat.

We also have stated about physical skill and knowledge skill wise (referring as the depth in a tab target game) as both with their own skill, which means it can be combined (not that that is new as action elements have been being added tot ab games for ages).

Noaani says devs can't/ won't do it and thinks players can't handle it.

I say players can handle it and it will create a difficult game....

I moreso was trying to get to the next part of the point.

No one makes 3D Fighting Games with 5 frame normals. PART of this is because it makes the animation look janky, but that's not always the reason. Some go down to 9 frames on the fastest ones, but the 'comfortable range' for most players is 10-12. There is a physical reason for this, I just don't know if you're aware of it or believe in it.

So your point is SIMILAR to 'devs could just make 3D games with 6f jabs and it would be fine'. Devs don't agree, which is why they don't make them. The real reason is that the specifics of the way 3D games work in terms of movement don't allow them to have a deep system starting from 6f normals. If anything it would reduce the skill cap and the game would become simpler and annoying. It's not IMPOSSIBLE, it's just a BAD IDEA.

It would become simple in the WAY that a 2D game becomes simple, but a lot less fun, because the thing it would take away is related to the sidesteps and movements, the '8-way run' you refer to. It would sort of 'turn it into a 2D game' and then the EXPERIENCE of playing it would stop having all the cool decision making.

So if you add too much Action Elements to a Tab Target style game, the same thing happens. Some people LIKE that, the same way some people 'like 2D games and don't care about sidestep'. But the 'cap' of 'what you can get into a Fighting Game is limited by frame data, you can't have a game that has proper sidesteps AND 6f jabs that most people can physically play, so Developers don't do it.

I guess this is more of me trying to make something useful out of all that stuff above for others. I don't really need you to respond if you don't understand why I say the stuff above. If you just 'believe that you can have a good 3D game with 6F jabs' and it would just 'raise the skill floor', then there's no need to respond to it. I was just hoping you could understand the Tab vs Action thing from that perspective.

Mag7spy

Ya we aren't going to see eye to eye on this. You are trying to argue in your opinion based on your reason people can't do things, i believe they can do it and make the correct judgements with the increased skill ceiling.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Ya we aren't going to see eye to eye on this. You are trying to argue in your opinion based on your reason people can't do things, i believe they can do it and make the correct judgements with the increased skill ceiling.

One question though. You obviously value proof for any kinds of statements. Do you have any proof for this particular statement?

Cause yeah, proper action combat in mmos might be a somewhat new thing, but in every action mmo so far there hasn't even been an attempt to make is as super difficult as you say it could be. And iirc Wildstar had action combat and was considered a hardcore mmo and I'm pretty sure that shit died real quick.

So to me this seems like most people don't want the kind of game you claim action mmos can be. Yes, people might like action combat more than tab, for one reason or the other, but so far history has shown that they prefer it in its current design. And that design is super easy, with main difficulty coming purely from the fact that you gotta aim your mouse a bit better than in tab games.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Ya we aren't going to see eye to eye on this. You are trying to argue in your opinion based on your reason people can't do things, i believe they can do it and make the correct judgements with the increased skill ceiling.

One question though. You obviously value proof for any kinds of statements. Do you have any proof for this particular statement?

Cause yeah, proper action combat in mmos might be a somewhat new thing, but in every action mmo so far there hasn't even been an attempt to make is as super difficult as you say it could be. And iirc Wildstar had action combat and was considered a hardcore mmo and I'm pretty sure that shit died real quick.

So to me this seems like most people don't want the kind of game you claim action mmos can be. Yes, people might like action combat more than tab, for one reason or the other, but so far history has shown that they prefer it in its current design. And that design is super easy, with main difficulty coming purely from the fact that you gotta aim your mouse a bit better than in tab games.

I could reference lost ark with their raids, before people had figured out all the mechs and such and were overgeared. I'm sure that took quite a bit of time, though by the time it came here we would have guides for everything.

There hasnt been many new mmorpgs, companies care more about greed than anything else, and the action mmorpgs are new in comparison compared to the many developers that worked on many tab mmorpgs over the years.

So by default there are less examples. But if we look at BDO from a skill stand point and nothing else they have like 30 skills available for players regardless of what is use or not. That game being a heavy action mmorpg shows other ones don't need to goa bad route like new world, and have have plenty of skills to use and all the effects to comes with it.

What i kind interesting with the same few people rather than having a discussion how to grow it, or how it can work, or what would be fun with how things can be they dismiss it and say tis not possible and create weird arguments to convince people it can't be done. That honestly isn't normal to be trying to convince people it can't be done when mechanically it clearly can. Than it is testing and pushing it further at that point to get towards the sweet spot on creating a great experience like that.

I wouldn't say people want it to be designed easy, people just play what is given to them as there is little to no choice in the mmorpg genre. People want complicated designs, good combat, actual meaningful skill choice, etc.

As i said before lets say in the perfect system they can get pretty much mostly there but they need to scale some mechanics back that were relied upon to add difficulty in terms of creating content around trackers. So rather than needing people to use trackers to be effective that content is in the game and reliant upon the player skill. If that is the trade off then that is fine to me with that example.

But honestly this argument on them thinking players decisions are maxed out so you can't have action combat in the game, honestly sounds like one of the most scape goat things I've ever heard. In order to refuse action combat or having general discussions on how it can work and just used to validate having a closed mind to it.

Wildstar is early on in action mmo development so it doesn't surprise me some wouldn't kick off as much, and also aall mmorpgs died in face of WoW. Swtor, rift, Age of conan, warhammer, city of heroes, champions online, the list goes on, all dead.

Depraved

who has played vindictus?

Azherae

Depraved wrote: »

who has played vindictus?

I did so (rather I had someone else play it and did analysis) based on a suggestion from another forum poster here.

Mag7spy

Depraved wrote: »

who has played vindictus?

some of my guildies played that game. I dont know much about it though.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Wildstar is early on in action mmo development so it doesn't surprise me some wouldn't kick off as much, and also aall mmorpgs died in face of WoW. Swtor, rift, Age of conan, warhammer, city of heroes, champions online, the list goes on, all dead.

Wildstar came out barely 2 years before BDO, with it going f2p one year before BDO's release. That's not even a gamer generation apart, so in theory it should've had the same potential playerbase as BDO, yet it still died.

I just rewatched the "death of a game" video on it and I guess its demise could be chalked up to mismanagement rather than purely difficulty. But at this point every single mmo outside of ff14 seems to be dying at the hands of poor management or greedy execs. And unless we get another "Steven", I doubt any company would be willing to risk a shitton of money by making a truly hardcore action mmo.

And as for LA, I personally see it as more of a 2d game rather than a 3d one. It might have some reactionary difficulty, but you're still just moving around a flat plain. Like, I just watched this video and it's all just "memorize this and react somewhat quickly to this"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZhcS_sKgQk

While yes, that is difficult to do, I don't consider that mechanically difficult. And ff14 already has around this lvl of complexity for its ultimates too, and iirc Noaani said that ff14's ultimates are not as complex as EQ2's top raids are.

But here's a question now, do you really think you'd be able to do all of those mechanics while also having a third dimension in the game? That is, jumping over stuff, aiming at correct vertical points, all while tracking buffs and debuffs on top of that.

I'm fairly sure that this would just be a starting point of difficulty for someone like Noaani or Azherae. And they think that normal humans would be unable to keep track of all of these mechanics for 15-20 minutes of a single non-stop action fight.

Asgerr

Mag7spy wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

[
Unsure where this is coming from, I've never mention head shots.

Your ego is showing. I never mentioned you or anything you said specifically in my post.

Last I checked this is a public forum. You are also free to respond or ignore post of people option is completely your choice. Better than snide remarks.

Same could have been applied to your assumption that a reply to the thread in general was a direct response to you. We're all flawed and humanity is doomed for it.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Wildstar is early on in action mmo development so it doesn't surprise me some wouldn't kick off as much, and also aall mmorpgs died in face of WoW. Swtor, rift, Age of conan, warhammer, city of heroes, champions online, the list goes on, all dead.

Wildstar came out barely 2 years before BDO, with it going f2p one year before BDO's release. That's not even a gamer generation apart, so in theory it should've had the same potential playerbase as BDO, yet it still died.

I just rewatched the "death of a game" video on it and I guess its demise could be chalked up to mismanagement rather than purely difficulty. But at this point every single mmo outside of ff14 seems to be dying at the hands of poor management or greedy execs. And unless we get another "Steven", I doubt any company would be willing to risk a shitton of money by making a truly hardcore action mmo.

And as for LA, I personally see it as more of a 2d game rather than a 3d one. It might have some reactionary difficulty, but you're still just moving around a flat plain. Like, I just watched this video and it's all just "memorize this and react somewhat quickly to this"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZhcS_sKgQk

While yes, that is difficult to do, I don't consider that mechanically difficult. And ff14 already has around this lvl of complexity for its ultimates too, and iirc Noaani said that ff14's ultimates are not as complex as EQ2's top raids are.

But here's a question now, do you really think you'd be able to do all of those mechanics while also having a third dimension in the game? That is, jumping over stuff, aiming at correct vertical points, all while tracking buffs and debuffs on top of that.

I'm fairly sure that this would just be a starting point of difficulty for someone like Noaani or Azherae. And they think that normal humans would be unable to keep track of all of these mechanics for 15-20 minutes of a single non-stop action fight.

I gotta say I totally enjoyed that vid. That looked kinda fun.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I gotta say I totally enjoyed that vid. That looked kinda fun.

Yeah, it'd definitely be a nice memory and reactions practice. Though, from what I've heard of LA's gearing system, you'd have to suffer through the game to enjoy this endgame raid. But I guess you're somewhat used to suffering through games, considering your experience with BDO

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I gotta say I totally enjoyed that vid. That looked kinda fun.

Yeah, it'd definitely be a nice memory and reactions practice. Though, from what I've heard of LA's gearing system, you'd have to suffer through the game to enjoy this endgame raid. But I guess you're somewhat used to suffering through games, considering your experience with BDO

It's been REALLY hard lately on the BDO front, let me tell ya... But I must persevere for the sake of knowledge!

Anyways back to the Raid. I hope (but don't expect) that the streamer was being at least somewhat hyperbolic about how much lower WoW Raids are in comparison. I've only mostly watched 'WoW raids where the Add-ons do all the work' and 'joke ones', which both seemed at least somewhat decent, if still scripted.

Nothing wrong with a good scripted encounter like this, and it does have some randomization, but it's also a lot more 'do it until you figure out what's going on mechanically and then repeat', yes. It's just a 'style thing'.

I'd say 'if you put this into EQ or FFXI' the equivalent fight would not be very different except that you'd have to build up coordinated methods for big damage opportunities, and most likely the Meteors and Black Hole would be random. The 'alternate dimension' stuff would be a good addition too, maybe some 1v1 fights to get out of the situation.

The main difference is that I don't think it would be the final boss, it would probably be just some middle-road story battle. I don't think that Action would make this particularly difficult, I don't think it's intended to be that type of 'difficult'.

An Action Game 'difficult' version of this would require your Mage to deflect the Meteors above your heads as they fall, AT the target, while the offtank protects the Mage from everything else, and the MainTank tries to keep the target in position for getting hit by the deflected meteors.

The Ranger, Summoner, Fighter and Rogue would get sucked into the cool 1v1 scenarios and get to flex their skills. Good times all around, looking forward to anything on this level (but admittedly yes, I would be sad if this wasn't 'Tier 3' raid content, out of 6-7)

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