Azherae wrote: » You're just slow. You play a slow game in a slow style. I play a very fast game in a very fast style. I hope that Ashes is slow enough that you can enjoy it (I don't know what they were doing with that Fighter Demo that is some crazy). They're just different skills.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » My question would be why would you need to make a mmorpg with hardcore action elements? You can make a mmorpg without it being hardcore and dialing it towards action and making the gameplay more complex and fun with the elements that brings while keeping the standard mmorpg qualities. But the gameplay being hardcore would already come from the tab mechanics being used in an action context. I just want to add proper action gameplay, cause to me "turn your character in a direction" is skillless. Yes, the speed might be difficult to get used to, but outside of that there's no real depth to the combat. And considering my experience in L2, I was already playing an "action" mmo with tab leaning. And I already explained why I think this. So if I was trying to play a true action mmo, I'd want smth that I suggested. The stats would still matter, because you can always design for them to matter. And iirc BDO has rng evasion mechanics even though it's THE action game of the genre. And as Noaani said, AA appears to be quite similar to what you want, and considering that it was L2's "continuation", I can definitely see how it could be.
Mag7spy wrote: » My question would be why would you need to make a mmorpg with hardcore action elements? You can make a mmorpg without it being hardcore and dialing it towards action and making the gameplay more complex and fun with the elements that brings while keeping the standard mmorpg qualities.
Azherae wrote: » Literally all I keep trying to get you to do is stop ragging on Tab Target unnecessarily. You don't want a hard game ANYWAY, let it go.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » To add to that, in case the unfamiliar care. The reason 3D games don't have fast normal attacks is because the player's character needs to be able to get out of the way. You can't make them fast enough movement to get out of the way of a 6f attack without making the entire game practically unplayable (imagine the Fighter Dash from the melee showcase but that's how the character moves all the time... or don't imagine it and just watch BDO). So for those you make the character just block instead of moving. Then everyone uses that attack type more often to force the opponent to block instead of moving (because the attacker did a quick thing, and wants the other player to never be able to do their own powerful slow thing). And then you have a '2D game', even if the characters have 'counters' or 'sidestep attacks', it's not really different feeling/tactics wise than a 2D game anymore. Mag's stance is in my opinion a contradiction because Mag says 'don't make the game as fast as BDO, let it be slower' and also 'aim doesn't have to be perfect, just soft lock', and 'abilities from mobs can curve'. Basically saying 'here are the ways I think the skill requirement should be reduced'. And then disqualifies 'Tab Target' (a term referring to a targeting system, not an ability/execution function, though apparently not in Mag's experience) as a similar solution. All while 'building up a whole system to compensate for and mimic how good Tab Target games work anyway'. There's no need to even have the discussion. If it were up to Mag the game would require LESS skill, even physical skill, than what anyone else in this thread so far would build, I think. Pretty false statement, action gameplay doesn't need exact precise shots. BDO speed is unreadable for people, pure speed doesn't mean as meaningful gameplay. Your statement sounds full of if a game isn't doing the fullest extremes mag wants the game to have less skill involved. Action games aren't about exact aim and making a fps game lol. You will say anything to try to redirect things and try to make something more complex to try and find some reasoning to say someone else is wrong... It isn't up to me its up to intrepid studios by the way, Last i checked they are doing 75% action or tab based on your choices. So by default if you are saying games can't do this, a game is literally doing this... Oh come on, I explicitly tried so hard not to make you defensive on this. I'm saying your stuff SEEMS like a contradiction to ME because you're reducing the skill cap. You are explicitly reducing it. BDO speed isn't unreadable for me at all. That's why I think DarkTides' point is so correct. There's no point in making a game with defensive mechanics (or offense ones, ofc) that only superhumans CAN USE. I now understand DarkTides' perception of Action Combat games. They are not realistic because they need to be what you are saying. Slow, imprecise, and the PvE similar. Except that we already have multiple games that don't do those things. BDO has the speed. MineCraft requires the precision. Absolver PvE is precise. The 'most skilled game' would be slightly higher than BDO speed (it's real speed, not the flashy distraction speed), require the precision levels of MineCraft, and have PvE enemies on the Absolver level. And 90% of people wouldn't play it. I don't know if you would or not, but you aren't asking for that, you're asking for literally NONE of that, so you're already accepting skill tradeoffs so that the game's difficulty is lowered. You just happen to also THINK that all Tab Target games made bigger tradeoffs than that. But they didn't. Many are 'BDO speed or higher' and 'PvE Absolver or higher', and Precision at least at what you imply. You just don't PLAY them. BDO isn't unreadable, do you do node, siege, large scale fights with 30 people around you attacking you at the same time, or getting attacked from render distance and not relying on a iframe spam class? There are less people that can read it based on that kind of skill, when have i said lowered the skill cap? You are misreading what im saying while also saying the skill cap is to high so devs won't have action combat in a mmorpg with all the skills that come with it? This logic is simply saying to make all those games faster speed wise or it has reduced skill cap. There are multiple skills players can be good at in games not simply based on speed. A game that has less incentive on fidgetily like speed but has room for other layers of elements to add skill into the game. honestly i could contrast with too much speed takes skill away from the game since it becomes about rushing someone than thinking anything else even remotely tactically which is more akin to a mmorpg. Adding action does not make speed suddenly unreadable, unless you make the action that fast for whatever reason. It would be like in BDO using nova to blitz someone before they can do anything and blowing them up when you get a cc and saying that takes more skill. Skill cap is push and pull, there needs to be a way to react. I understand that BDO [EDIT] isn't unreadable to you. It is not unreadable to me. Your perceptions make sense. You believing that more speed is less skill is EXACTLY what I'd expect given everything. But I can't manage to not start a big defensive rant from you if I explain why, because you don't like accepting it. You're just slow. You play a slow game in a slow style. I play a very fast game in a very fast style. I hope that Ashes is slow enough that you can enjoy it (I don't know what they were doing with that Fighter Demo that is some crazy). They're just different skills. But I play Melty Blood, if I couldn't track BDO fights I would not even get to do anything, which is what you describe. Nova is like the second slowest class in BDO.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » To add to that, in case the unfamiliar care. The reason 3D games don't have fast normal attacks is because the player's character needs to be able to get out of the way. You can't make them fast enough movement to get out of the way of a 6f attack without making the entire game practically unplayable (imagine the Fighter Dash from the melee showcase but that's how the character moves all the time... or don't imagine it and just watch BDO). So for those you make the character just block instead of moving. Then everyone uses that attack type more often to force the opponent to block instead of moving (because the attacker did a quick thing, and wants the other player to never be able to do their own powerful slow thing). And then you have a '2D game', even if the characters have 'counters' or 'sidestep attacks', it's not really different feeling/tactics wise than a 2D game anymore. Mag's stance is in my opinion a contradiction because Mag says 'don't make the game as fast as BDO, let it be slower' and also 'aim doesn't have to be perfect, just soft lock', and 'abilities from mobs can curve'. Basically saying 'here are the ways I think the skill requirement should be reduced'. And then disqualifies 'Tab Target' (a term referring to a targeting system, not an ability/execution function, though apparently not in Mag's experience) as a similar solution. All while 'building up a whole system to compensate for and mimic how good Tab Target games work anyway'. There's no need to even have the discussion. If it were up to Mag the game would require LESS skill, even physical skill, than what anyone else in this thread so far would build, I think. Pretty false statement, action gameplay doesn't need exact precise shots. BDO speed is unreadable for people, pure speed doesn't mean as meaningful gameplay. Your statement sounds full of if a game isn't doing the fullest extremes mag wants the game to have less skill involved. Action games aren't about exact aim and making a fps game lol. You will say anything to try to redirect things and try to make something more complex to try and find some reasoning to say someone else is wrong... It isn't up to me its up to intrepid studios by the way, Last i checked they are doing 75% action or tab based on your choices. So by default if you are saying games can't do this, a game is literally doing this... Oh come on, I explicitly tried so hard not to make you defensive on this. I'm saying your stuff SEEMS like a contradiction to ME because you're reducing the skill cap. You are explicitly reducing it. BDO speed isn't unreadable for me at all. That's why I think DarkTides' point is so correct. There's no point in making a game with defensive mechanics (or offense ones, ofc) that only superhumans CAN USE. I now understand DarkTides' perception of Action Combat games. They are not realistic because they need to be what you are saying. Slow, imprecise, and the PvE similar. Except that we already have multiple games that don't do those things. BDO has the speed. MineCraft requires the precision. Absolver PvE is precise. The 'most skilled game' would be slightly higher than BDO speed (it's real speed, not the flashy distraction speed), require the precision levels of MineCraft, and have PvE enemies on the Absolver level. And 90% of people wouldn't play it. I don't know if you would or not, but you aren't asking for that, you're asking for literally NONE of that, so you're already accepting skill tradeoffs so that the game's difficulty is lowered. You just happen to also THINK that all Tab Target games made bigger tradeoffs than that. But they didn't. Many are 'BDO speed or higher' and 'PvE Absolver or higher', and Precision at least at what you imply. You just don't PLAY them. BDO isn't unreadable, do you do node, siege, large scale fights with 30 people around you attacking you at the same time, or getting attacked from render distance and not relying on a iframe spam class? There are less people that can read it based on that kind of skill, when have i said lowered the skill cap? You are misreading what im saying while also saying the skill cap is to high so devs won't have action combat in a mmorpg with all the skills that come with it? This logic is simply saying to make all those games faster speed wise or it has reduced skill cap. There are multiple skills players can be good at in games not simply based on speed. A game that has less incentive on fidgetily like speed but has room for other layers of elements to add skill into the game. honestly i could contrast with too much speed takes skill away from the game since it becomes about rushing someone than thinking anything else even remotely tactically which is more akin to a mmorpg. Adding action does not make speed suddenly unreadable, unless you make the action that fast for whatever reason. It would be like in BDO using nova to blitz someone before they can do anything and blowing them up when you get a cc and saying that takes more skill. Skill cap is push and pull, there needs to be a way to react.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » To add to that, in case the unfamiliar care. The reason 3D games don't have fast normal attacks is because the player's character needs to be able to get out of the way. You can't make them fast enough movement to get out of the way of a 6f attack without making the entire game practically unplayable (imagine the Fighter Dash from the melee showcase but that's how the character moves all the time... or don't imagine it and just watch BDO). So for those you make the character just block instead of moving. Then everyone uses that attack type more often to force the opponent to block instead of moving (because the attacker did a quick thing, and wants the other player to never be able to do their own powerful slow thing). And then you have a '2D game', even if the characters have 'counters' or 'sidestep attacks', it's not really different feeling/tactics wise than a 2D game anymore. Mag's stance is in my opinion a contradiction because Mag says 'don't make the game as fast as BDO, let it be slower' and also 'aim doesn't have to be perfect, just soft lock', and 'abilities from mobs can curve'. Basically saying 'here are the ways I think the skill requirement should be reduced'. And then disqualifies 'Tab Target' (a term referring to a targeting system, not an ability/execution function, though apparently not in Mag's experience) as a similar solution. All while 'building up a whole system to compensate for and mimic how good Tab Target games work anyway'. There's no need to even have the discussion. If it were up to Mag the game would require LESS skill, even physical skill, than what anyone else in this thread so far would build, I think. Pretty false statement, action gameplay doesn't need exact precise shots. BDO speed is unreadable for people, pure speed doesn't mean as meaningful gameplay. Your statement sounds full of if a game isn't doing the fullest extremes mag wants the game to have less skill involved. Action games aren't about exact aim and making a fps game lol. You will say anything to try to redirect things and try to make something more complex to try and find some reasoning to say someone else is wrong... It isn't up to me its up to intrepid studios by the way, Last i checked they are doing 75% action or tab based on your choices. So by default if you are saying games can't do this, a game is literally doing this... Oh come on, I explicitly tried so hard not to make you defensive on this. I'm saying your stuff SEEMS like a contradiction to ME because you're reducing the skill cap. You are explicitly reducing it. BDO speed isn't unreadable for me at all. That's why I think DarkTides' point is so correct. There's no point in making a game with defensive mechanics (or offense ones, ofc) that only superhumans CAN USE. I now understand DarkTides' perception of Action Combat games. They are not realistic because they need to be what you are saying. Slow, imprecise, and the PvE similar. Except that we already have multiple games that don't do those things. BDO has the speed. MineCraft requires the precision. Absolver PvE is precise. The 'most skilled game' would be slightly higher than BDO speed (it's real speed, not the flashy distraction speed), require the precision levels of MineCraft, and have PvE enemies on the Absolver level. And 90% of people wouldn't play it. I don't know if you would or not, but you aren't asking for that, you're asking for literally NONE of that, so you're already accepting skill tradeoffs so that the game's difficulty is lowered. You just happen to also THINK that all Tab Target games made bigger tradeoffs than that. But they didn't. Many are 'BDO speed or higher' and 'PvE Absolver or higher', and Precision at least at what you imply. You just don't PLAY them.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » To add to that, in case the unfamiliar care. The reason 3D games don't have fast normal attacks is because the player's character needs to be able to get out of the way. You can't make them fast enough movement to get out of the way of a 6f attack without making the entire game practically unplayable (imagine the Fighter Dash from the melee showcase but that's how the character moves all the time... or don't imagine it and just watch BDO). So for those you make the character just block instead of moving. Then everyone uses that attack type more often to force the opponent to block instead of moving (because the attacker did a quick thing, and wants the other player to never be able to do their own powerful slow thing). And then you have a '2D game', even if the characters have 'counters' or 'sidestep attacks', it's not really different feeling/tactics wise than a 2D game anymore. Mag's stance is in my opinion a contradiction because Mag says 'don't make the game as fast as BDO, let it be slower' and also 'aim doesn't have to be perfect, just soft lock', and 'abilities from mobs can curve'. Basically saying 'here are the ways I think the skill requirement should be reduced'. And then disqualifies 'Tab Target' (a term referring to a targeting system, not an ability/execution function, though apparently not in Mag's experience) as a similar solution. All while 'building up a whole system to compensate for and mimic how good Tab Target games work anyway'. There's no need to even have the discussion. If it were up to Mag the game would require LESS skill, even physical skill, than what anyone else in this thread so far would build, I think. Pretty false statement, action gameplay doesn't need exact precise shots. BDO speed is unreadable for people, pure speed doesn't mean as meaningful gameplay. Your statement sounds full of if a game isn't doing the fullest extremes mag wants the game to have less skill involved. Action games aren't about exact aim and making a fps game lol. You will say anything to try to redirect things and try to make something more complex to try and find some reasoning to say someone else is wrong... It isn't up to me its up to intrepid studios by the way, Last i checked they are doing 75% action or tab based on your choices. So by default if you are saying games can't do this, a game is literally doing this...
Azherae wrote: » To add to that, in case the unfamiliar care. The reason 3D games don't have fast normal attacks is because the player's character needs to be able to get out of the way. You can't make them fast enough movement to get out of the way of a 6f attack without making the entire game practically unplayable (imagine the Fighter Dash from the melee showcase but that's how the character moves all the time... or don't imagine it and just watch BDO). So for those you make the character just block instead of moving. Then everyone uses that attack type more often to force the opponent to block instead of moving (because the attacker did a quick thing, and wants the other player to never be able to do their own powerful slow thing). And then you have a '2D game', even if the characters have 'counters' or 'sidestep attacks', it's not really different feeling/tactics wise than a 2D game anymore. Mag's stance is in my opinion a contradiction because Mag says 'don't make the game as fast as BDO, let it be slower' and also 'aim doesn't have to be perfect, just soft lock', and 'abilities from mobs can curve'. Basically saying 'here are the ways I think the skill requirement should be reduced'. And then disqualifies 'Tab Target' (a term referring to a targeting system, not an ability/execution function, though apparently not in Mag's experience) as a similar solution. All while 'building up a whole system to compensate for and mimic how good Tab Target games work anyway'. There's no need to even have the discussion. If it were up to Mag the game would require LESS skill, even physical skill, than what anyone else in this thread so far would build, I think.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » You're just slow. You play a slow game in a slow style. I play a very fast game in a very fast style. I hope that Ashes is slow enough that you can enjoy it (I don't know what they were doing with that Fighter Demo that is some crazy). They're just different skills. I need your opinion on smth. Would you consider this combat fast? (there's iframes on dash and on Q use)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4guShve-pQI Cause I look at the fighter's showcase and I can't see why you consider it very fast. But I'm also not used to frame readings and analysis so I might be overlooking smth very big.
Mag7spy wrote: » I don't view tab mechanics being hardcore where you can't add a player needing to track and land the hits and be able to react and dodge them consistently.
Mag7spy wrote: » Action combat adds a lot of depth with needing to land your attacks, dodge, react, etc. I don't understand how you can say it doesn't add depth unless i misread something? Needing to face who you are fighting and have some focus on them while being able to handle and dodge other things coming your way adds a lot of skill. Especially when the comparison is where you can hit tab(including enemies off screen), press your skill and it lands on them. That is not difficult for anyone to do, and had no skill element to it. Only example given where it requires some actual element of tracking is your example if they are being retargeted every few seconds. But I'd need to play to be able to fully judge it how much down time it is creating.
Mag7spy wrote: » Old games aside like i said people have made points that games can't do it and developers won't do it yet AoC is allowing players to do 75% action or tab. So I'm curious what you have to say to that element NiKr.
Mag7spy wrote: » It is pretty amazing that @Azherae here is trying to say im trying to add more action elements to the game and ragging on tab target? Actually makes no sense it is the other way around with me saying action can work fine and they are trying to saying no developer will have more action elements in the game since it won't work or suddenly become too hard that makes no sense gameplay wise. I've said this before u realize AoC will let you go 75% action right, which is in contrast to what you are saying about developers won't do it?
Azherae wrote: » I believe that Genshin PvP will 'turn into something similar to this'. I really hope you enjoy it!
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I don't view tab mechanics being hardcore where you can't add a player needing to track and land the hits and be able to react and dodge them consistently. Yeah, I meant that action combat combined with all the tab complexity would already become hardcore. But I'd personally want it to go even further. Mag7spy wrote: » Action combat adds a lot of depth with needing to land your attacks, dodge, react, etc. I don't understand how you can say it doesn't add depth unless i misread something? Needing to face who you are fighting and have some focus on them while being able to handle and dodge other things coming your way adds a lot of skill. Especially when the comparison is where you can hit tab(including enemies off screen), press your skill and it lands on them. That is not difficult for anyone to do, and had no skill element to it. Only example given where it requires some actual element of tracking is your example if they are being retargeted every few seconds. But I'd need to play to be able to fully judge it how much down time it is creating. I meant it comparatively to what I'd like to play. Yes, counter play in action mmos is definitely more prevalent than in tab ones, purely because you have more ways to utilize it. Tab games might provide you with a few abilities to counter your enemy's moves, while the whole point of action games is to constantly counter your opponent's moves. But what I want is more verticality in combat. The Absolver gameplay seems close to what I'm talking about. There's high/mid/low strikes and counters to all of those (or at least vertically segmented defenses). It's pretty much a proper 3d fighting game, by the looks of it. And, imo, compared to the potential depth of that kind of game, plain action games like NW, BDO or LA are so fucking easy they're not even worth mentioning. If they had complex ability interdependencies from tab games they'd definitely be closer to the hardcoreness that I'd like, but they would still just be "2d" games imo. It's pretty much the same as your comparison of SC to other 2d fighters. You liked SC because it gave you more depth with that 3rd dimension. I want the same for action games, but I believe (and Azherae and others seem to agree) that the game that I want would be barely played, because its complexity would be waaaay too fucking high for any normal person. You seem to agree with that too, considering you don't want those kinds of complexities added to the game. Mag7spy wrote: » Old games aside like i said people have made points that games can't do it and developers won't do it yet AoC is allowing players to do 75% action or tab. So I'm curious what you have to say to that element NiKr. I'd need to see how exactly they're planning on doing that. And I haven't played GW2, which seems to be the closest to AoC in combat design, so I got no clue what Intrepid could even do. But no matter what they go for, it'll definitely be way less hardcore than what I'd prefer. I'm fine with that though, mainly because I want the game to succeed and not just be smth that only I would play.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » It is pretty amazing that @Azherae here is trying to say im trying to add more action elements to the game and ragging on tab target? Actually makes no sense it is the other way around with me saying action can work fine and they are trying to saying no developer will have more action elements in the game since it won't work or suddenly become too hard that makes no sense gameplay wise. I've said this before u realize AoC will let you go 75% action right, which is in contrast to what you are saying about developers won't do it? If you have changed your stance from what you have said in the past, then I apologize. I don't want to have the discussion about the whole 'don't add more Action because it lowers tactics' thing. As long as we can all agree that it's a SLIDER for skill and which type of skill, then I have no argument. Noaani wishes 'less action so that there can be more thinking skills'. I will repeat that I don't agree with Noaani on this entirely because I also like the physical skills and IF they make PvE enemies with the correct types of physical skill challenges, I will consider it to be just as fun and tactical as a fully Tab Target encounter.I am not arguing with you if you are not saying that Tab requires less skill OR if you are saying 'Skill in Tab could be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. I also believe that some 'skill in Tab can be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. It's called ArcheAge.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » It is pretty amazing that @Azherae here is trying to say im trying to add more action elements to the game and ragging on tab target? Actually makes no sense it is the other way around with me saying action can work fine and they are trying to saying no developer will have more action elements in the game since it won't work or suddenly become too hard that makes no sense gameplay wise. I've said this before u realize AoC will let you go 75% action right, which is in contrast to what you are saying about developers won't do it? If you have changed your stance from what you have said in the past, then I apologize. I don't want to have the discussion about the whole 'don't add more Action because it lowers tactics' thing. As long as we can all agree that it's a SLIDER for skill and which type of skill, then I have no argument. Noaani wishes 'less action so that there can be more thinking skills'. I will repeat that I don't agree with Noaani on this entirely because I also like the physical skills and IF they make PvE enemies with the correct types of physical skill challenges, I will consider it to be just as fun and tactical as a fully Tab Target encounter.I am not arguing with you if you are not saying that Tab requires less skill OR if you are saying 'Skill in Tab could be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. I also believe that some 'skill in Tab can be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. It's called ArcheAge. My whole stance is against him sayings devs WILL NOT ADD action elements with tab complexity and that it is impossible for people to handle it. I believe devs can add it and it is not impossible for players to handle that kind of content...
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » It is pretty amazing that @Azherae here is trying to say im trying to add more action elements to the game and ragging on tab target? Actually makes no sense it is the other way around with me saying action can work fine and they are trying to saying no developer will have more action elements in the game since it won't work or suddenly become too hard that makes no sense gameplay wise. I've said this before u realize AoC will let you go 75% action right, which is in contrast to what you are saying about developers won't do it? If you have changed your stance from what you have said in the past, then I apologize. I don't want to have the discussion about the whole 'don't add more Action because it lowers tactics' thing. As long as we can all agree that it's a SLIDER for skill and which type of skill, then I have no argument. Noaani wishes 'less action so that there can be more thinking skills'. I will repeat that I don't agree with Noaani on this entirely because I also like the physical skills and IF they make PvE enemies with the correct types of physical skill challenges, I will consider it to be just as fun and tactical as a fully Tab Target encounter.I am not arguing with you if you are not saying that Tab requires less skill OR if you are saying 'Skill in Tab could be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. I also believe that some 'skill in Tab can be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. It's called ArcheAge. My whole stance is against him sayings devs WILL NOT ADD action elements with tab complexity and that it is impossible for people to handle it. I believe devs can add it and it is not impossible for players to handle that kind of content... Oh, I don't think Noaani was saying that they WILL NOT, or that they CANNOT. Just that the Raid content would be less COMPLEX if they did and therefore not 'top tier raiding'. I am not sure I agree with that either, BUT again, just like you, I see 'complexity' differently. See post above (the section directed at NiKr). I don't consider that 'complex', and I bet Noaani doesn't either. It is 'visceral', it can definitely be 'difficult', and I personally would be fine with 'another 7 layers of mechanics added on top of it' (by that I mean a bunch more 'you probably die' situations to track). And before you push back, remember again I don't necessarily agree with Noaani.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » It is pretty amazing that @Azherae here is trying to say im trying to add more action elements to the game and ragging on tab target? Actually makes no sense it is the other way around with me saying action can work fine and they are trying to saying no developer will have more action elements in the game since it won't work or suddenly become too hard that makes no sense gameplay wise. I've said this before u realize AoC will let you go 75% action right, which is in contrast to what you are saying about developers won't do it? If you have changed your stance from what you have said in the past, then I apologize. I don't want to have the discussion about the whole 'don't add more Action because it lowers tactics' thing. As long as we can all agree that it's a SLIDER for skill and which type of skill, then I have no argument. Noaani wishes 'less action so that there can be more thinking skills'. I will repeat that I don't agree with Noaani on this entirely because I also like the physical skills and IF they make PvE enemies with the correct types of physical skill challenges, I will consider it to be just as fun and tactical as a fully Tab Target encounter.I am not arguing with you if you are not saying that Tab requires less skill OR if you are saying 'Skill in Tab could be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. I also believe that some 'skill in Tab can be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. It's called ArcheAge. My whole stance is against him sayings devs WILL NOT ADD action elements with tab complexity and that it is impossible for people to handle it. I believe devs can add it and it is not impossible for players to handle that kind of content... Oh, I don't think Noaani was saying that they WILL NOT, or that they CANNOT. Just that the Raid content would be less COMPLEX if they did and therefore not 'top tier raiding'. I am not sure I agree with that either, BUT again, just like you, I see 'complexity' differently. See post above (the section directed at NiKr). I don't consider that 'complex', and I bet Noaani doesn't either. It is 'visceral', it can definitely be 'difficult', and I personally would be fine with 'another 7 layers of mechanics added on top of it' (by that I mean a bunch more 'you probably die' situations to track). And before you push back, remember again I don't necessarily agree with Noaani. Honestly to get a better understanding on this rather than talking about things can't be done because of max decisions or something saying it will take complex elements away. It is better to have a discussion on what element of action combat and what level would it have to be that it takes awake from complex mechanics. And what point does it add more depth to the overall gameplay without removing the mmorpg feel. Dodging is just something I like it adds more complexity to pvp and has more push and pull and having mobility to your moves. Though being a mmorpg if we are going to be talking about PvE content there needs to be a limit on how much you can get away from and some stability of damage you are taking needing to rely on gear, buffs, team work, etc. But also if things are being made more easy on that front, it isn't something you can approach int he same way as before and other elements are needed to further up the difficulty in both skill and mechanical elements of the content. Personally I don't like the instant wipes akin to lost ark, or needing to be frame perfect or you lose. It feels a bit of out of place in a mmorpg but this is just imo. Mistakes 100% should be a thing but it should be you are losing because of a hard fight, not because of one person makes some slight mistake in movement. That would start to be dialed more towards the action side. This doesn't mean there can't be some content or points like that in raids, etc as i believe there should be a vast amount of mechanics and lose conditions in place to keep things mixed up.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » It is pretty amazing that @Azherae here is trying to say im trying to add more action elements to the game and ragging on tab target? Actually makes no sense it is the other way around with me saying action can work fine and they are trying to saying no developer will have more action elements in the game since it won't work or suddenly become too hard that makes no sense gameplay wise. I've said this before u realize AoC will let you go 75% action right, which is in contrast to what you are saying about developers won't do it? If you have changed your stance from what you have said in the past, then I apologize. I don't want to have the discussion about the whole 'don't add more Action because it lowers tactics' thing. As long as we can all agree that it's a SLIDER for skill and which type of skill, then I have no argument. Noaani wishes 'less action so that there can be more thinking skills'. I will repeat that I don't agree with Noaani on this entirely because I also like the physical skills and IF they make PvE enemies with the correct types of physical skill challenges, I will consider it to be just as fun and tactical as a fully Tab Target encounter.I am not arguing with you if you are not saying that Tab requires less skill OR if you are saying 'Skill in Tab could be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. I also believe that some 'skill in Tab can be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. It's called ArcheAge. My whole stance is against him sayings devs WILL NOT ADD action elements with tab complexity and that it is impossible for people to handle it. I believe devs can add it and it is not impossible for players to handle that kind of content... Oh, I don't think Noaani was saying that they WILL NOT, or that they CANNOT. Just that the Raid content would be less COMPLEX if they did and therefore not 'top tier raiding'. I am not sure I agree with that either, BUT again, just like you, I see 'complexity' differently. See post above (the section directed at NiKr). I don't consider that 'complex', and I bet Noaani doesn't either. It is 'visceral', it can definitely be 'difficult', and I personally would be fine with 'another 7 layers of mechanics added on top of it' (by that I mean a bunch more 'you probably die' situations to track). And before you push back, remember again I don't necessarily agree with Noaani. Honestly to get a better understanding on this rather than talking about things can't be done because of max decisions or something saying it will take complex elements away. It is better to have a discussion on what element of action combat and what level would it have to be that it takes awake from complex mechanics. And what point does it add more depth to the overall gameplay without removing the mmorpg feel. Dodging is just something I like it adds more complexity to pvp and has more push and pull and having mobility to your moves. Though being a mmorpg if we are going to be talking about PvE content there needs to be a limit on how much you can get away from and some stability of damage you are taking needing to rely on gear, buffs, team work, etc. But also if things are being made more easy on that front, it isn't something you can approach int he same way as before and other elements are needed to further up the difficulty in both skill and mechanical elements of the content. Personally I don't like the instant wipes akin to lost ark, or needing to be frame perfect or you lose. It feels a bit of out of place in a mmorpg but this is just imo. Mistakes 100% should be a thing but it should be you are losing because of a hard fight, not because of one person makes some slight mistake in movement. That would start to be dialed more towards the action side. This doesn't mean there can't be some content or points like that in raids, etc as i believe there should be a vast amount of mechanics and lose conditions in place to keep things mixed up. And this is why I say, you don't even need to argue. You don't want 'top Tier Action Combat Difficulty'. "Mistakes 100% should be a thing but it should be you are losing because of a hard fight, not because of one person makes some slight mistake in movement." This is the definition of Top Tier Action Combat Raid Difficulty. This is what Top Tier Action Raid players might define as a 'Hard Fight'. Your definition is different. Noaani's definition is even more different.
Azherae wrote: » "By making the Fighter's Dash so far, so fast, etc, it allows them to make this design type the top level of play, and anyone who cannot do it should theoretically lose the raid or at least have to reset everything else to revive whichever Fighter can't do it."
Azherae wrote: » This is the definition of Top Tier Action Combat Raid Difficulty.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » It is pretty amazing that @Azherae here is trying to say im trying to add more action elements to the game and ragging on tab target? Actually makes no sense it is the other way around with me saying action can work fine and they are trying to saying no developer will have more action elements in the game since it won't work or suddenly become too hard that makes no sense gameplay wise. I've said this before u realize AoC will let you go 75% action right, which is in contrast to what you are saying about developers won't do it? If you have changed your stance from what you have said in the past, then I apologize. I don't want to have the discussion about the whole 'don't add more Action because it lowers tactics' thing. As long as we can all agree that it's a SLIDER for skill and which type of skill, then I have no argument. Noaani wishes 'less action so that there can be more thinking skills'. I will repeat that I don't agree with Noaani on this entirely because I also like the physical skills and IF they make PvE enemies with the correct types of physical skill challenges, I will consider it to be just as fun and tactical as a fully Tab Target encounter.I am not arguing with you if you are not saying that Tab requires less skill OR if you are saying 'Skill in Tab could be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. I also believe that some 'skill in Tab can be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. It's called ArcheAge. My whole stance is against him sayings devs WILL NOT ADD action elements with tab complexity and that it is impossible for people to handle it. I believe devs can add it and it is not impossible for players to handle that kind of content... Oh, I don't think Noaani was saying that they WILL NOT, or that they CANNOT. Just that the Raid content would be less COMPLEX if they did and therefore not 'top tier raiding'. I am not sure I agree with that either, BUT again, just like you, I see 'complexity' differently. See post above (the section directed at NiKr). I don't consider that 'complex', and I bet Noaani doesn't either. It is 'visceral', it can definitely be 'difficult', and I personally would be fine with 'another 7 layers of mechanics added on top of it' (by that I mean a bunch more 'you probably die' situations to track). And before you push back, remember again I don't necessarily agree with Noaani. Honestly to get a better understanding on this rather than talking about things can't be done because of max decisions or something saying it will take complex elements away. It is better to have a discussion on what element of action combat and what level would it have to be that it takes awake from complex mechanics. And what point does it add more depth to the overall gameplay without removing the mmorpg feel. Dodging is just something I like it adds more complexity to pvp and has more push and pull and having mobility to your moves. Though being a mmorpg if we are going to be talking about PvE content there needs to be a limit on how much you can get away from and some stability of damage you are taking needing to rely on gear, buffs, team work, etc. But also if things are being made more easy on that front, it isn't something you can approach int he same way as before and other elements are needed to further up the difficulty in both skill and mechanical elements of the content. Personally I don't like the instant wipes akin to lost ark, or needing to be frame perfect or you lose. It feels a bit of out of place in a mmorpg but this is just imo. Mistakes 100% should be a thing but it should be you are losing because of a hard fight, not because of one person makes some slight mistake in movement. That would start to be dialed more towards the action side. This doesn't mean there can't be some content or points like that in raids, etc as i believe there should be a vast amount of mechanics and lose conditions in place to keep things mixed up. And this is why I say, you don't even need to argue. You don't want 'top Tier Action Combat Difficulty'. "Mistakes 100% should be a thing but it should be you are losing because of a hard fight, not because of one person makes some slight mistake in movement." This is the definition of Top Tier Action Combat Raid Difficulty. This is what Top Tier Action Raid players might define as a 'Hard Fight'. Your definition is different. Noaani's definition is even more different. That is because this is a mmorpg I don't view action and mmorpg action combat as the same.
