worddog wrote: » I'd say 3 months after launch most super hard core players will have at least one max level alt character that is a master of whatever artisan class their other character needs. After another couple months they'll have their second alt and be totally self sufficient with three characters mastering each artisan class.
The Wiki wrote: A character may only master one of the three parent artisan classes.[2] It is possible to master up to two or three professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[5][6][2][7] A character will be able to achieve up to tier 3 or tier 4 proficiency in professions that are not mastered.[5]
NiKr wrote: » worddog wrote: » It doesn't seem like processing or crafting has any major risks involved. If my main character is the gatherer he'll have my best gear. My alts will be protected in the freehold where they can process and craft. Obviously wars and events can damage/destroy freeholds but that has nothing to do with the general safety of processors and crafters. Yes, and you need the gatherables to even start using your processers and crafters. Which was my point. Yes, your gatherer will be well-geared, but are you sure that you'll be able to fight against several people who work together while you yourself are solo? Because I'm fairly sure that any high lvl/value gatherer will have protection with him, because that gatherer will be in a guild or just in a group of people who leveled different artisans and now support their gatherer so that solo players like you can't do shit to him.
worddog wrote: » It doesn't seem like processing or crafting has any major risks involved. If my main character is the gatherer he'll have my best gear. My alts will be protected in the freehold where they can process and craft. Obviously wars and events can damage/destroy freeholds but that has nothing to do with the general safety of processors and crafters.
SongRune wrote: » worddog wrote: » I'd say 3 months after launch most super hard core players will have at least one max level alt character that is a master of whatever artisan class their other character needs. After another couple months they'll have their second alt and be totally self sufficient with three characters mastering each artisan class. Maybe that's the misunderstanding then? The Wiki wrote: A character may only master one of the three parent artisan classes.[2] It is possible to master up to two or three professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[5][6][2][7] A character will be able to achieve up to tier 3 or tier 4 proficiency in professions that are not mastered.[5] (ref: Artisan classes) With at least 9 Processing professions, 8 Crafting professions, and 5 Gathering professions, you'd need no less than 8 characters (if they choose 3 subspecialties) or 12 (if they choose 2). There probably won't be 12 character slots per account.
worddog wrote: » Why would I be a solo player. Obviously my main character would be in a guild and be raiding. If the gathering meta required me to have other players protecting me than I'd have bodyguards, but I really doubt that would be the meta.
NiKr wrote: » worddog wrote: » Why would I be a solo player. Obviously my main character would be in a guild and be raiding. If the gathering meta required me to have other players protecting me than I'd have bodyguards, but I really doubt that would be the meta. Then why waste time on leveling several alts when you can cooperate with your guildmates and achieve the same goal much much faster? And if you're assuming that all the other time-hardcore players will also be in guilds, then how would them having artisan alts be any different from them just working together with their mates?
worddog wrote: » Alts are very useful for guilds. If I can harvest more resources that means I can supply my guild with more resources too. I'd expect basically every hardcore player to have a gathering character either on launch or soon after, whether it's their main or an alt.
worddog wrote: » SongRune wrote: » worddog wrote: » I'd say 3 months after launch most super hard core players will have at least one max level alt character that is a master of whatever artisan class their other character needs. After another couple months they'll have their second alt and be totally self sufficient with three characters mastering each artisan class. Maybe that's the misunderstanding then? The Wiki wrote: A character may only master one of the three parent artisan classes.[2] It is possible to master up to two or three professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[5][6][2][7] A character will be able to achieve up to tier 3 or tier 4 proficiency in professions that are not mastered.[5] (ref: Artisan classes) With at least 9 Processing professions, 8 Crafting professions, and 5 Gathering professions, you'd need no less than 8 characters (if they choose 3 subspecialties) or 12 (if they choose 2). There probably won't be 12 character slots per account. You don't need to master every profession, just the ones relating to each other. Herbalism -> Alchemy has nothing to do with weapon smithing for example. Your 2 characters are now self-sufficient. Those 2 characters could also have Mining -> Metalworking according to how master professions are limited to their parent classes.
SongRune wrote: » worddog wrote: » SongRune wrote: » worddog wrote: » I'd say 3 months after launch most super hard core players will have at least one max level alt character that is a master of whatever artisan class their other character needs. After another couple months they'll have their second alt and be totally self sufficient with three characters mastering each artisan class. Maybe that's the misunderstanding then? The Wiki wrote: A character may only master one of the three parent artisan classes.[2] It is possible to master up to two or three professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[5][6][2][7] A character will be able to achieve up to tier 3 or tier 4 proficiency in professions that are not mastered.[5] (ref: Artisan classes) With at least 9 Processing professions, 8 Crafting professions, and 5 Gathering professions, you'd need no less than 8 characters (if they choose 3 subspecialties) or 12 (if they choose 2). There probably won't be 12 character slots per account. You don't need to master every profession, just the ones relating to each other. Herbalism -> Alchemy has nothing to do with weapon smithing for example. Your 2 characters are now self-sufficient. Those 2 characters could also have Mining -> Metalworking according to how master professions are limited to their parent classes. There will be players who do this in any situation. Even if they need multiple accounts to do so. While this may be additional discouragement to some, it will not be to others, and in fact tends more toward pay to win. The current system prevents pay to win by allowing players to use their alts for this. Some players will choose to do this, and they should be allowed to. The time they invest in it is time they could spend doing something else that they prefer, make money from that, and pay for whatever else. That 98% of players will support the desired economy. If a particular person is really into crafting, there's no reason to stop them.
NiKr wrote: » I'd personally love to see the NW approach. Just let everyone do everything. I'm sure that would in no way impact the planned economy or gameplay.
NiKr wrote: » But even if this didn't require an alt and was just available on your main, there's still a limited amount of resources in the open world, so it's not like if your whole guild has top lvl gathering that you'd suddenly be able to gather more stuff.
pyreal wrote: » NiKr wrote: » I'd personally love to see the NW approach. Just let everyone do everything. I'm sure that would in no way impact the planned economy or gameplay. Totally agree. Restrictions of any kind are just anti-good. Its not fair that I can't be a Master Gatherer, Master Processor, and a Master Craftsman, let alone a Master Carpenter and a Master Tailor! Whom shall make the gingham tablecloths just so for my trellis tables and half top wall table?!
worddog wrote: » It absolutely would. If there is enough resources for 10,000 people than a single guild will always be able to work harder to obtain more. A guild where every member is a gatherer will gather more resources than a guild where some members are not. That's just a basic fact.
worddog wrote: » SongRune wrote: » worddog wrote: » SongRune wrote: » worddog wrote: » I'd say 3 months after launch most super hard core players will have at least one max level alt character that is a master of whatever artisan class their other character needs. After another couple months they'll have their second alt and be totally self sufficient with three characters mastering each artisan class. Maybe that's the misunderstanding then? The Wiki wrote: A character may only master one of the three parent artisan classes.[2] It is possible to master up to two or three professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[5][6][2][7] A character will be able to achieve up to tier 3 or tier 4 proficiency in professions that are not mastered.[5] (ref: Artisan classes) With at least 9 Processing professions, 8 Crafting professions, and 5 Gathering professions, you'd need no less than 8 characters (if they choose 3 subspecialties) or 12 (if they choose 2). There probably won't be 12 character slots per account. You don't need to master every profession, just the ones relating to each other. Herbalism -> Alchemy has nothing to do with weapon smithing for example. Your 2 characters are now self-sufficient. Those 2 characters could also have Mining -> Metalworking according to how master professions are limited to their parent classes. There will be players who do this in any situation. Even if they need multiple accounts to do so. While this may be additional discouragement to some, it will not be to others, and in fact tends more toward pay to win. The current system prevents pay to win by allowing players to use their alts for this. Some players will choose to do this, and they should be allowed to. The time they invest in it is time they could spend doing something else that they prefer, make money from that, and pay for whatever else. That 98% of players will support the desired economy. If a particular person is really into crafting, there's no reason to stop them. Yeah, so what I originally was asking is why even force it on alts. Why not allow one character to do it without making an alt. I'm not saying its better or worse just a simple question.
NiKr wrote: » worddog wrote: » It absolutely would. If there is enough resources for 10,000 people than a single guild will always be able to work harder to obtain more. A guild where every member is a gatherer will gather more resources than a guild where some members are not. That's just a basic fact. The whole point of having owpvp is to have people compete for the limited resources. If the game had enough resources for 10k people pvp would be pointless. So no, I highly doubt that there'll be enough resources for 10k people. And at top lvls of gathering I doubt there'd be enough resources for even 100 people. Intrepid might prove me wrong, but, considering all of the planned design so far, I somehow doubt that.
worddog wrote: » They said themselves lower tier resources are used in higher tier crafting. And the game would have to basically be a barren wasteland to prevent those from being farmed by guilds. Idk how you can even argue that having more people doing something isn't useful.
NiKr wrote: » worddog wrote: » They said themselves lower tier resources are used in higher tier crafting. And the game would have to basically be a barren wasteland to prevent those from being farmed by guilds. Idk how you can even argue that having more people doing something isn't useful. I'm not arguing that it isn't useful, I'm arguing that it won't be as impactful as you're making it out to be. Yes, the people who have more time on their hands will gather more resources than those who don't have the time for it. Alternatively the people with time could just make money and buy the same resources, cause farming them directly might take more time than making money to buy them.
worddog wrote: » NiKr wrote: » worddog wrote: » They said themselves lower tier resources are used in higher tier crafting. And the game would have to basically be a barren wasteland to prevent those from being farmed by guilds. Idk how you can even argue that having more people doing something isn't useful. I'm not arguing that it isn't useful, I'm arguing that it won't be as impactful as you're making it out to be. Yes, the people who have more time on their hands will gather more resources than those who don't have the time for it. Alternatively the people with time could just make money and buy the same resources, cause farming them directly might take more time than making money to buy them. Yeah that was my point. I'm talking about the people who do have time. Why force them to use alts when you could just make it harder for them to do it on one character. If the argument is that it should be harder or a bigger time investment why not just do that for a single character. Instead of 500hrs on two characters why not 1000hrs on one character.
Azherae wrote: » worddog wrote: » NiKr wrote: » worddog wrote: » They said themselves lower tier resources are used in higher tier crafting. And the game would have to basically be a barren wasteland to prevent those from being farmed by guilds. Idk how you can even argue that having more people doing something isn't useful. I'm not arguing that it isn't useful, I'm arguing that it won't be as impactful as you're making it out to be. Yes, the people who have more time on their hands will gather more resources than those who don't have the time for it. Alternatively the people with time could just make money and buy the same resources, cause farming them directly might take more time than making money to buy them. Yeah that was my point. I'm talking about the people who do have time. Why force them to use alts when you could just make it harder for them to do it on one character. If the argument is that it should be harder or a bigger time investment why not just do that for a single character. Instead of 500hrs on two characters why not 1000hrs on one character. Because of the power of incidental activity. Task switching, character switching, inability to 'just suddenly grab something when you see it', they all matter. So IF a player is not ON their Master Mining character and happen to come across something great, they have to log in, bring that character all the way there, etc. If they see someone in Node asking for a sword made, that they could make, or another could make, and their Weaponsmith Alt is somewhere else, someone else gets that sale first. This additional cost in time and focus is what tilts the balance for a lot of people, and therefore is a decent deterrent.
worddog wrote: » Yeah that was my point. I'm talking about the people who do have time. Why force them to use alts when you could just make it harder for them to do it on one character. If the argument is that it should be harder or a bigger time investment why not just do that for a single character. Instead of 500hrs on two characters why not 1000hrs on one character.
