What I feel is a serious problem with AOCs class system and how to, at least partially fix it.

While I love the concept of mixing base archetypes to obtain classes, I feel that the inability to start off (from lvl 1) as the class (fantasy-gameplay style) you want is going to be a pretty bitter pill to swallow for a lot of mmo-rpg fans.

You're probably going to have hundreds of thousands of people who are going to come into this and be like ''okay I want to start playing a warlock/dps holy knight/death knight/shaman/etc'' and find out... they just can't.

Which is a particularly bitter pill to swallow when the whole game is... well, an RPG.

A game where you get to form a personal connection with your character, with the first levels being the most critical-enjoyable in any case, serious period in this relationship.

And with the system as it is... well, that connection is sabotaged early on because you just can't play the class (fantasy/gameplay style you want).

For example, to play a dps holy knight (equivalent of WoW's retribution paladin) I will have to level a fighter (warrior) to level 25... but I don't want to play a warrior to that level, I want to play a dps melee heavy armour cleric. But if I play a melee heavy armour cleric I will never end up as a dps class.

So it's just a profoundly flawed system from this point of view and I'm aware there is no way this is going to change in any SIGNIFICANT WAY but...

but, hear me out

can we at least put some honey on the bitter pill?

Can we add some early on, holy/shadow/elemental/etc magic to the leveling warrior, cleric, mage, etc?

so that, a fighter wanting to end up as a highsword (equivalent of retribution paladin) can get some holy healing/dps/magic absorption spells earlier on?

Or a mage wanting to end up as a warlock can use shadow magic from early on, maybe have a cruse added to some of his spells, maybe even summon an imp or something under certain conditions.

I think that would at least help a bit.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

TheDarkSorcerer

I wouldn't call this a serious problem... These are subclasses after all. You will need to learn the basics of your CORE class before you can decide what direction you want to take your character. I think this is fair.

Strevi

Ironhope wrote: »

but, hear me out

You should place this in the first half of the post.

Mag7spy

I have 0 issue with the class system, don't see it as a flaw you need to level up and feel that is progression. When you get tot hat point you will be excited imo.

Dygz

In D&D terms, you are starting with a class.
And, then later, you can multi-class.

Asgerr

Do you get upset when you're playing any MMO and can't access the specialization, awakening, job etc from the beginning?

This isn't any different.

Secondary archetypes won't suddenly transform your class into something entirely different. You're just going to get different effects, visual effects and procs for the existing kit you have.

Such as a Fighter getting healing on his attacks if they choose Cleric, or a the Tank's gap-closer becoming an uninterruptible teleport by going the Mage route.

CROW3

I don’t agree that this is a ‘serious problem.’ It’s pretty common to start as a generic role then specialize into something more specific later in life.

No concern that players will balk at this.

Summpwner

I would be surprised if you were force-fed the BITTER PILL for more than a handful of hours. In that time you will likely be learning about dozens of other systems, UI's, etc. Never be upset that the early game is too basic.

Azherae

I agree with you based on my understanding and studies of players, but only to a point.

The 'sweet spot' of 'players who are serious enough to know exactly what role and class they want to play in a game' but also 'get sick of it and quit before they get there because it is taking too long' is a small set.

What it will probably do is create a lot of resentment/annoyance/'bad press' which might then spread OUT and discourage a few other people a little, particularly if this game does not release before the new big MMOs coming.

But I also think that the 'sweet spot' of players like that would react worse to your suggestion than to even the problem starting, so unfortunately, Intrepid might at least end up considering 'do I really want to fix this?'

Personally I definitely support people getting Secondary Archetype much EARLIER, but as you said, it's unlikely this is going to change, because there is probably a meaningful reason for it. Most likely a tradeoff somewhere.

ClintHardwood

This isn't a problem that needs a solution. It's better to start off with simple systems that get more complicated as you level than to throw everything at the player at once.

LordBlank

Ironhope wrote: »

While I love the concept of mixing base archetypes to obtain classes, I feel that the inability to start off (from lvl 1) as the class (fantasy-gameplay style) you want is going to be a pretty bitter pill to swallow for a lot of mmo-rpg fans.

You're probably going to have hundreds of thousands of people who are going to come into this and be like ''okay I want to start playing a warlock/dps holy knight/death knight/shaman/etc'' and find out... they just can't.

Which is a particularly bitter pill to swallow when the whole game is... well, an RPG.

A game where you get to form a personal connection with your character, with the first levels being the most critical-enjoyable in any case, serious period in this relationship.

And with the system as it is... well, that connection is sabotaged early on because you just can't play the class (fantasy/gameplay style you want).

For example, to play a dps holy knight (equivalent of WoW's retribution paladin) I will have to level a fighter (warrior) to level 25... but I don't want to play a warrior to that level, I want to play a dps melee heavy armour cleric. But if I play a melee heavy armour cleric I will never end up as a dps class.

So it's just a profoundly flawed system from this point of view and I'm aware there is no way this is going to change in any SIGNIFICANT WAY but...

but, hear me out

can we at least put some honey on the bitter pill?

Can we add some early on, holy/shadow/elemental/etc magic to the leveling warrior, cleric, mage, etc?

so that, a fighter wanting to end up as a highsword (equivalent of retribution paladin) can get some holy healing/dps/magic absorption spells earlier on?

Or a mage wanting to end up as a warlock can use shadow magic from early on, maybe have a cruse added to some of his spells, maybe even summon an imp or something under certain conditions.

I think that would at least help a bit.

What are you talking about? Bro, it's no different than any other MMO where you have to level up before you gain access to certain skills. What MMO are you thinking about where you start out with all abilities?

Noaani

I disagree.

In Ashes, even though you may want to be a Warlock, you are actually a mage.

As such, the leveling process should highlight the fact that you actually are the primary archetype you picked. Playing the first 20 or so levels as just that archetype is a good thing, imo.

If you are playing as a Warlock, and only consider yourself a Warlock, you are doing yourself and those close to you in game a disservice. You are a mage, have access to all that a mage has, and should be making the best use of that whole archetype. The game allowing you to start out that initial made period with the feeling of a Sarlock rather than just a mage is the game assisting you in performing that disservice.

Summpwner

Noaani wrote: »

I disagree.

In Ashes, even though you may want to be a Warlock, you are actually a mage.

As such, the leveling process should highlight the fact that you actually are the primary archetype you picked. Playing the first 20 or so levels as just that archetype is a good thing, imo.

If you are playing as a Warlock, and only consider yourself a Warlock, you are doing yourself and those close to you in game a disservice. You are a mage, have access to all that a mage has, and should be making the best use of that whole archetype. The game allowing you to start out that initial made period with the feeling of a Sarlock rather than just a mage is the game assisting you in performing that disservice.

This is exactly what I'm imagining as well. In Guild Wars 1, you chose a primary and then a secondary class. You did yourself a huge disservice if you NEVER were willing to change your secondary class. I believe that this system will be similar.

Rhorden

Ironhope wrote: »

While I love the concept of mixing base archetypes to obtain classes, I feel that the inability to start off (from lvl 1) as the class (fantasy-gameplay style) you want is going to be a pretty bitter pill to swallow for a lot of mmo-rpg fans.

You're probably going to have hundreds of thousands of people who are going to come into this and be like ''okay I want to start playing a warlock/dps holy knight/death knight/shaman/etc'' and find out... they just can't.

Which is a particularly bitter pill to swallow when the whole game is... well, an RPG.

A game where you get to form a personal connection with your character, with the first levels being the most critical-enjoyable in any case, serious period in this relationship.

And with the system as it is... well, that connection is sabotaged early on because you just can't play the class (fantasy/gameplay style you want).

For example, to play a dps holy knight (equivalent of WoW's retribution paladin) I will have to level a fighter (warrior) to level 25... but I don't want to play a warrior to that level, I want to play a dps melee heavy armour cleric. But if I play a melee heavy armour cleric I will never end up as a dps class.

So it's just a profoundly flawed system from this point of view and I'm aware there is no way this is going to change in any SIGNIFICANT WAY but...

but, hear me out

can we at least put some honey on the bitter pill?

Can we add some early on, holy/shadow/elemental/etc magic to the leveling warrior, cleric, mage, etc?

so that, a fighter wanting to end up as a highsword (equivalent of retribution paladin) can get some holy healing/dps/magic absorption spells earlier on?

Or a mage wanting to end up as a warlock can use shadow magic from early on, maybe have a cruse added to some of his spells, maybe even summon an imp or something under certain conditions.

I think that would at least help a bit.

I see what you're saying and how it could lead to a problem but I'm not sure that secondary classes will have that much effect on builds. The subspec is designed to accentuate what is already there. Stevens example was a warrior that charges to his enemy. If the subspec is mage then instead of charging to the enemy, with visible position change and movement speed, he will now blink to the enemy instantaneously. It's not intended to rewrite how a class works but to add different flavors.
I do think you are right about waiting too long for the secondary archetype though. They said max level (50) was designed to take roughly a month and a half, at the time frames they gave. Given that games typically level you up faster early on and the subclasses don't kick in until 25 that means people should be playing about 2 to 3 weeks before they can subspec. That does feel a bit long. There are plenty of classes to mix with and I'd rather start doing that earlier than later to find a setup that suits me better. Because of the number of subspecs possible, roughly 4 to 5 weeks more before max level, plus unlocking skills as you go and seeing which versions of the overall build you like better, I think a ton of people will be switching around secondary specs at max level a lot.

I've mentioned before that along with the character creator, launching before the game goes live, we should get a single person arena to try out different characters with higher level abilities so we have a better idea of which way we want to go. Adding the ability to try subspecs with this would be a nice bonus. Not to mention you'll have something to do after the game launches and you get stuck in a long queue.

Depraved

who says you cant play a physical melee cleric? just wear heavy armor and whatever weapon. remember everybody can use any gear here. the cleric even has a skill that lower defenses and slows, so you can do more damage with your spear or hammer or whatever. and weapons have skills you can learn as well. we gonna have the resurrection of the battle priest!

tautau

A large part of the pleasure of a RPG for many players is growing your character into something you feel is really special. To do that you have to grow, you can't just start there, that really would take the fun out of your second class and it also takes the feeling of accomplishment out of it as well.

If we are able to use a real-world example in a fantasy world, consider a grizzled and hardened gunnery sergeant in the USMC, a scary badass. She or he wasn't born that way, they went through high school, boot camp, served so well as a private first class they got promoted to corporal. Re-upped for another hitch and got sergeant, then another promotion and after a decade in the corps - or more - was made a gunny.

You gotta earn that second class in AoC, that is what makes it special. If you don't earn it, it means nothing.

George_Black

Im 100% in the opposite direction.
By the same, in the mmos that give you the warlock experience right out the gates, you still dont have access to the cool stuff straight away..

Summpwner

Yeah its pretty ridiculous to say that this is a serious problem to .... more than a handful of people. Every single RPG starts you out with basic stuff and then you specialize into your "fantasy." Every game in general starts you out with a tutorial and then introduces more complicated abilities or mechanics as you progress. It makes no sense to flip that on its head just to fulfill your fantasy in your first moments of the game. You will be bogged down with tons of new stuff.

bloodprophet

When I saw this that it was a Necro thread.
You started a thread like this or was it three when you first joined the forums.

Caww

Ironhope wrote: »

I want to play a dps melee heavy armour cleric.

64 combinations is probably too much for a Level 1 player to choose from that is not familiar with the gameplay mechanics already.

I don't see how a heavy armor user can be both a cleric and DPS at the same time, which is not the usual role combination, clerics can be heavy armor but DPS pays the penalty of not being allowed heavy armor and tanks pay the penalty for using heavy armor with lower overall DPS.

Even with 64 combo's not every configuration will be available.

bloodprophet

One of the OP's early threads on this topic.
Still hung up on nomenclature and the IDEA that real world history has to be reflected in the game.
Intrepid is not allowed to do their own thing apparently

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/51008/i-hope-the-devs-understand-that-for-many-its-either-having-fun-with-class-x-or-quitting-the-game#latest

Child Item