CROW3 wrote: » In Ashes, it’s not about alts it’s about teamwork.
worddog wrote: » CROW3 wrote: » In Ashes, it’s not about alts it’s about teamwork. From personal experience, the holy trinity of economics in video games tends to be Me, Myself and I. Unless a game has more content than I have time to complete there will always be a reason to use alts instead of other players. Why pay for something I can get myself, when there is nothing better for me to be doing anyway?
CROW3 wrote: » worddog wrote: » CROW3 wrote: » In Ashes, it’s not about alts it’s about teamwork. From personal experience, the holy trinity of economics in video games tends to be Me, Myself and I. Unless a game has more content than I have time to complete there will always be a reason to use alts instead of other players. Why pay for something I can get myself, when there is nothing better for me to be doing anyway? Which is fine, but that’s why Ashes has a single player contained in the Artisan class in one of 3 horizontal steps instead of a entire production vertical. It’s also why moving material between alts is constrained through housing storage.https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Alts It’s possible to solo, but a team will run economic circles around you.
worddog wrote: » I'm not even really taking about 'solo' though. I'm just talking about being self-sufficient. Sure 3 players that rely on each other will do more than 1 self-sufficient player. But 3 self-sufficient players will do way more than 3 that are not.
worddog wrote: » CROW3 wrote: » Sure 3 players that rely on each other will do more than 1 self-sufficient player. But 3 self-sufficient players will do way more than 3 that are not. Yeah they will do way more.... but not in the economic sense. 3 specialized players usually produce a finished product much faster than a single player running around doing 3 jobs. Not only that, but each individual player will be producing their maximum money/hour, while a single player will have to do 2 activities that are not their maximum money/hour. Why wouldn't they want to just do your maximum money/hour all the time?
CROW3 wrote: » Sure 3 players that rely on each other will do more than 1 self-sufficient player. But 3 self-sufficient players will do way more than 3 that are not.
Summpwner wrote: » worddog wrote: » CROW3 wrote: » Sure 3 players that rely on each other will do more than 1 self-sufficient player. But 3 self-sufficient players will do way more than 3 that are not. Yeah they will do way more.... but not in the economic sense. 3 specialized players usually produce a finished product much faster than a single player running around doing 3 jobs. Not only that, but each individual player will be producing their maximum money/hour, while a single player will have to do 2 activities that are not their maximum money/hour. Why wouldn't they want to just do your maximum money/hour all the time? What are the 2 players doing while waiting for the gatherer to get the resources for them to use? That time could be spent gathering even more resources on alts.
CROW3 wrote: » worddog wrote: » I'm not even really taking about 'solo' though. I'm just talking about being self-sufficient. Sure 3 players that rely on each other will do more than 1 self-sufficient player. But 3 self-sufficient players will do way more than 3 that are not. Yeah, those are some cute semantics. Feel free to explain how my characterization of a single-player ‘solo’ crafting in a production vertical isn’t ‘self-sufficient.’ 🧐 And I don’t think it’s true 3 vertical crafters will outpace 3 horizontal artisans. There are way too many variables to ascribe any sense of certainty.
worddog wrote: » What are the 2 players doing while waiting for the gatherer to get the resources for them to use? That time could be spent gathering even more resources on alts.
Summpwner wrote: » worddog wrote: » What are the 2 players doing while waiting for the gatherer to get the resources for them to use? That time could be spent gathering even more resources on alts. While they wait? Like there is none available for purchase on the market? If supply available for purchase shrinks, usually the price rises and more people step up to supply it and cash in on the price hike. When it saturates, people maybe switch to another product to supply. If we are assuming normal market forces though, an item in demand will also be in supply. Changes in supply or demand affect the price, but to say that 2 highly specialized players who likely can make dozen of different things have NOTHING to do because the gatherer player is having a lazy day off makes no sense to me.
Azherae wrote: » BDO
Summpwner wrote: » Azherae wrote: » BDO BDO is a totally different market situation. 10,000 people buy-order 1000x Meat but its not actually worth gathering, because the price is capped at the same $ as 10 years ago before massive inflation. Gatherers will gravitate towards products with higher $ caps. If the cap wasn't there, market forces would find an equilibrium price where gatherers would find it worth to gatherer, and people would buy it. Hint: that number is likely exponentially more than the cap. The game would be VERY different if they just removed price caps and floors, but they can't do that because they make NO effort whatsoever to curb inflation. The market tax is the only thing that consumes silver, but there's no supply of VIP, which drives people to whale up.... meanwhile every new zone has a higher max s/h. All-in-all, I think comparisons to BDO's sorry excuse for an economy are going to be poor at best.
Azherae wrote: » Summpwner wrote: » Azherae wrote: » BDO BDO is a totally different market situation. 10,000 people buy-order 1000x Meat but its not actually worth gathering, because the price is capped at the same $ as 10 years ago before massive inflation. Gatherers will gravitate towards products with higher $ caps. If the cap wasn't there, market forces would find an equilibrium price where gatherers would find it worth to gatherer, and people would buy it. Hint: that number is likely exponentially more than the cap. The game would be VERY different if they just removed price caps and floors, but they can't do that because they make NO effort whatsoever to curb inflation. The market tax is the only thing that consumes silver, but there's no supply of VIP, which drives people to whale up.... meanwhile every new zone has a higher max s/h. All-in-all, I think comparisons to BDO's sorry excuse for an economy are going to be poor at best. But my point is that I study the WAY they make those decisions, and use that to determine how much players understand these things. They do not. For example, on Console they have recently changed EXACTLY the thin you were talking about. They raised the max sell price for gatherables. Doubled, in fact. And then somehow, in their infinite wisdom, did NOT also raise the max sell price for the PRODUCTS you make with those gatherables. What would you expect the result to be, if someone doubled costs on an item needed to make a product (because it is always in Zero supply) but did NOT raise the sale price of the product itself, which was previously a razor-thin margin for nearly everyone? I'd EXPECT an uproar, immediate complaints to the point where they had to fix it, and instant drying up of the supply of Product. Opposite happened. "Pure LifeSkillers" are a demographic that are VERY difficult to understand in games from an economic perspective, you can't plan your game around the way they do things, and in a very roundabout way, that's why we don't care about it, because the person who thinks "I'll just make everything myself" is EQUIVALENT in mental processes to a 'pure LifeSkiller', NOT to an Economic Player.
Azherae wrote: » But my point is that I study the WAY they make those decisions, and use that to determine how much players understand these things. They do not.
worddog wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Summpwner wrote: » Azherae wrote: » BDO BDO is a totally different market situation. 10,000 people buy-order 1000x Meat but its not actually worth gathering, because the price is capped at the same $ as 10 years ago before massive inflation. Gatherers will gravitate towards products with higher $ caps. If the cap wasn't there, market forces would find an equilibrium price where gatherers would find it worth to gatherer, and people would buy it. Hint: that number is likely exponentially more than the cap. The game would be VERY different if they just removed price caps and floors, but they can't do that because they make NO effort whatsoever to curb inflation. The market tax is the only thing that consumes silver, but there's no supply of VIP, which drives people to whale up.... meanwhile every new zone has a higher max s/h. All-in-all, I think comparisons to BDO's sorry excuse for an economy are going to be poor at best. But my point is that I study the WAY they make those decisions, and use that to determine how much players understand these things. They do not. For example, on Console they have recently changed EXACTLY the thin you were talking about. They raised the max sell price for gatherables. Doubled, in fact. And then somehow, in their infinite wisdom, did NOT also raise the max sell price for the PRODUCTS you make with those gatherables. What would you expect the result to be, if someone doubled costs on an item needed to make a product (because it is always in Zero supply) but did NOT raise the sale price of the product itself, which was previously a razor-thin margin for nearly everyone? I'd EXPECT an uproar, immediate complaints to the point where they had to fix it, and instant drying up of the supply of Product. Opposite happened. "Pure LifeSkillers" are a demographic that are VERY difficult to understand in games from an economic perspective, you can't plan your game around the way they do things, and in a very roundabout way, that's why we don't care about it, because the person who thinks "I'll just make everything myself" is EQUIVALENT in mental processes to a 'pure LifeSkiller', NOT to an Economic Player. This is very much what I'm referring to. I've never played BDO but in New World I had every skill maxed because I didn't want to be at the whims of the auction house. If a gatherable was too expensive I'd just get it myself, if no one had crafted the exact gear I wanted I'd just craft it myself. If I can be self-sufficient I will be.
Summpwner wrote: » Azherae wrote: » But my point is that I study the WAY they make those decisions, and use that to determine how much players understand these things. They do not. Are you trying to say that market forces are just totally impossible to understand because one game publisher made a change and the market didn't respond 100% as expected? I don't personally know any console players, but I'm willing to bet there are FAR fewer console lifeskillers than there are PC lifeskillers. I would be willing to bet that those console players who ARE lifeskillers probably skew towards gather, so they don't even engage with processing or crafting, and all they saw was increased profit. The whole line of reasoning is a moot point... AOC doesn't seem to want to aim for ANY market intervention aside from tax, and SS has numerous times in Dev Updates talked about the commitment they have to making a full fledged market that curbs inflation, yet provides opportunities for market actors like geographic arbitration. Comparing BDO's HEAVILY manipulated market or trying to draw conclusions from what PA do without qualifying statements to what AOC seems to want to be is just so mindbogglingly wrong to me.
Diamaht wrote: » Well then you'll need multiple accounts.
worddog wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Well then you'll need multiple accounts. But I don't need multiple accounts. You can just have alts with different professions in the current system.
