Azherae wrote: » Right, and the thing is, no matter what restrictions are placed, YOU are the type that will do this. Countering YOU is not the goal of such a system. Countering 'the tendency for ME to turn INTO You', is. Given the current system, there is a 'barrier' that prevents Me() from becoming You(). I can tell you that the Barrier is working and I welcome it. But the fact that it is working indicates that not everyone will 'become You() if they are trying to make money. They do it because of whatever (I don't know exactly what) causes you to be that way, and that player type will surpass all but the most ridiculous barriers to do so, so there's no point in going that far.
Azherae wrote: » worddog wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Well then you'll need multiple accounts. But I don't need multiple accounts. You can just have alts with different professions in the current system. Think of it as "Intrepid Paying you $15 (this is on the assumption for some reason that you have two computers or can run two instances on one system undetected)" to NOT use twice the time, to use up only the 'amount of time a single instance of the Ashes Client makes available to you'. You might not be the type to make a whole second account just so you can be self-sufficient in Crafting if they went that far. But many will, so Alts are a way to HELP with this in a specific way. It's just more 'small barriers'. "I could be more efficient and self sufficient but it would cost me $15 and it wouldn't be MORE effective than that competitor who just uses Alts so meh".
worddog wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Well then you'll need multiple accounts. But I don't need multiple accounts. You can just have alts with different professions in the current system.
Diamaht wrote: » Well then you'll need multiple accounts.
worddog wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Right, and the thing is, no matter what restrictions are placed, YOU are the type that will do this. Countering YOU is not the goal of such a system. Countering 'the tendency for ME to turn INTO You', is. Given the current system, there is a 'barrier' that prevents Me() from becoming You(). I can tell you that the Barrier is working and I welcome it. But the fact that it is working indicates that not everyone will 'become You() if they are trying to make money. They do it because of whatever (I don't know exactly what) causes you to be that way, and that player type will surpass all but the most ridiculous barriers to do so, so there's no point in going that far. But I don't think there is much of a barrier. Like in New World sure it takes a lot of time and resources to max every trade skill, but most hardcore players will do it. If something provides a player with an advantage than the competitive players are going to do it. Leveling an alt to max takes less than 200hrs according to Stephen. That might seem like a lot of time to most people but if I only work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, than I still have 56hrs of free time every week to do whatever I want. There are plenty of hardcore players who play well over 40hrs a week, and that's not even considering the people WITHOUT jobs. Those 100hr per week gremlins that camp you for 6 hours while you're trying to level.
Azherae wrote: » worddog wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Right, and the thing is, no matter what restrictions are placed, YOU are the type that will do this. Countering YOU is not the goal of such a system. Countering 'the tendency for ME to turn INTO You', is. Given the current system, there is a 'barrier' that prevents Me() from becoming You(). I can tell you that the Barrier is working and I welcome it. But the fact that it is working indicates that not everyone will 'become You() if they are trying to make money. They do it because of whatever (I don't know exactly what) causes you to be that way, and that player type will surpass all but the most ridiculous barriers to do so, so there's no point in going that far. But I don't think there is much of a barrier. Like in New World sure it takes a lot of time and resources to max every trade skill, but most hardcore players will do it. If something provides a player with an advantage than the competitive players are going to do it. Leveling an alt to max takes less than 200hrs according to Stephen. That might seem like a lot of time to most people but if I only work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, than I still have 56hrs of free time every week to do whatever I want. There are plenty of hardcore players who play well over 40hrs a week, and that's not even considering the people WITHOUT jobs. Those 100hr per week gremlins that camp you for 6 hours while you're trying to level. I think I failed to explain before why doing it isn't an advantage. I don't expect to manage to make the point to you either, but I'll repeat it for... idk, data. Hardcore players doing this are not making MORE money by filling every Market Niche unless they NEVER do anything else really, and even then. And I don't think you really want to try to stop those people because they will break down ALL barriers because of the way their minds work. But the idea of 'competitive advantage by doing it' is a sign of a poor economy, the arrow of causation for THAT, I don't THINK goes in the direction of 'People can Make Alts to do everything >> Bad Economy". In my personal experience it explicitly goes the other way. The Competitive Advantage you speak of must exist, but 'just spending more time' isn't usually that type of advantage (just the more time is, technically using it on this is somewhat wasting it, if you have other interests in the game). But as I said prior. Anecdotal. Rejectable. Just my data.
Azherae wrote: » But as I said prior. Anecdotal. Rejectable. Just my data.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » But as I said prior. Anecdotal. Rejectable. Just my data. Just to support that bit of data from a game with free trading. On a ton of L2's private servers people would usually try to be as self-sufficient as possible, because those servers would usually have higher lvling rates so making a gatherer alt was easy (even several at different lvl points). And because of that the game's market would either be barren or the prices on items would be so damn high that no casual/non-guild player could ever farm that much in a reasonable amount of time. And at the opposite side of the spectrum, on low rate servers the market would always have a shitton of resources and the overall amount of crafter items was usually higher and at cheaper prices (relative to rates of course). And that was mainly because farming some money at high lvl was a much better way to "get resources" than leveling a whole damn alt to go and try gathering a few items here and there. And that alt would have some problems too, because there was a much higher competition for the resources, because way more people would just gather them, instead of leveling up to high, because it was quite profitable. And on top of that, any new player who just picked up a few lucky rare mats along their leveling way could then sell them on the market for a good price and get themselves some gear upgrades (because again, the crafter stuff was cheaper). In other words, the economy was way healthier when there were designated gathering players and just high lvlers. The fact that those high lvl players always had stuff to do (namely grind) also helped out the whole situation, so I do hope that Ashes provides players with enough beneficial activities that would outweigh the allure of "doing it all yourself".
Azherae wrote: » This isn't just a beneficial activity thing though, this is a 'limited open world supply' thing. Which isn't common in games these days, but... If an area has enough items for 3 gatherers at a time, in rotation it might support 30 per day. If the game ALSO has less than 30 people including alts that wish to do this gathering, then it is in your best interest to always make alts. As soon as it goes past this number, it is now no longer in ANYONE'S interest to make alts or even to risk gathering without specialization.
CROW3 wrote: » @Azherae - additionally, allow gatherers multiple masteries means when so few resources are available in the wild, when you do run across something you can harvest it instead of grabbing an alt (and probably not finding it before another player) to harvest it.
Azherae wrote: » CROW3 wrote: » @Azherae - additionally, allow gatherers multiple masteries means when so few resources are available in the wild, when you do run across something you can harvest it instead of grabbing an alt (and probably not finding it before another player) to harvest it. You've played WoW enough to know how this works there, right? ('sadly' I couldn't stomach it), is this the expectation of that playerbase? Or will we be inundated with much more 'There's not enough gathering nodes!' than even I expect?
worddog wrote: » Multiboxing is considered cheating so I don't care about it. Having two accounts is fine but playing on both at the same time should be banned.
The Wiki wrote: Multiple accounts and multi-boxing, that's a little bit difficult for me because it could be conceived as pay-to-win, because you can progress on a second character and you can then gift that progression to your primary character. In that scenario yes I can see the argument. However if the character progresses with the same amount of effort and time needed by the person who's playing and they maintain that progression on that character, then I don't consider it pay-to-win. I consider it a second account. So initially what I'm going to say is having multi-boxing capability will be allowed within Ashes of Creation. There are a few safety nets that I put in place that kind of restrict the ability for abuses that we've seen in other games.[5] – Steven Sharif
George_Black wrote: » This is an mmo with an economy system. Not eso/ff14. You cant have players be selfsufficient and expect a good economy and social gameplay.
Azherae wrote: » You've played WoW enough to know how this works there, right? ('sadly' I couldn't stomach it), is this the expectation of that playerbase? Or will we be inundated with much more 'There's not enough gathering nodes!' than even I expect?
ClintHardwood wrote: » Orly. Albion online has an excellent economy, the best among all MMOs and probably video games entirely, and you can level every gathering/crafting skill on a single character.
SongRune wrote: » worddog wrote: » Multiboxing is considered cheating so I don't care about it. Having two accounts is fine but playing on both at the same time should be banned. I've seen you say this a couple times now. I thought you should know that it's not true. Multi-boxing is specifically allowed. The Wiki wrote: Multiple accounts and multi-boxing, that's a little bit difficult for me because it could be conceived as pay-to-win, because you can progress on a second character and you can then gift that progression to your primary character. In that scenario yes I can see the argument. However if the character progresses with the same amount of effort and time needed by the person who's playing and they maintain that progression on that character, then I don't consider it pay-to-win. I consider it a second account. So initially what I'm going to say is having multi-boxing capability will be allowed within Ashes of Creation. There are a few safety nets that I put in place that kind of restrict the ability for abuses that we've seen in other games.[5] – Steven Sharif (ref: Multi-boxing) (And a community poll a few days later reinforced Steven's decision by a nearly 20% margin.)
Taleof2Cities wrote: » ClintHardwood wrote: » Orly. Albion online has an excellent economy, the best among all MMOs and probably video games entirely, and you can level every gathering/crafting skill on a single character. An excellent economy? Yes. Does it promote social gameplay? No.
worddog wrote: » Azherae wrote: » CROW3 wrote: » @Azherae - additionally, allow gatherers multiple masteries means when so few resources are available in the wild, when you do run across something you can harvest it instead of grabbing an alt (and probably not finding it before another player) to harvest it. You've played WoW enough to know how this works there, right? ('sadly' I couldn't stomach it), is this the expectation of that playerbase? Or will we be inundated with much more 'There's not enough gathering nodes!' than even I expect? Based on the world size and lack of fast travel I kind of assumed gathering would be really safe. Like if you just go to some far away node you won't be bothered, it'll just cost you time.
Strevi wrote: » worddog wrote: » Azherae wrote: » CROW3 wrote: » @Azherae - additionally, allow gatherers multiple masteries means when so few resources are available in the wild, when you do run across something you can harvest it instead of grabbing an alt (and probably not finding it before another player) to harvest it. You've played WoW enough to know how this works there, right? ('sadly' I couldn't stomach it), is this the expectation of that playerbase? Or will we be inundated with much more 'There's not enough gathering nodes!' than even I expect? Based on the world size and lack of fast travel I kind of assumed gathering would be really safe. Like if you just go to some far away node you won't be bothered, it'll just cost you time. Transporting resources should not be safe. If moving them from node to node is unsafe, same rules might apply when you move them from the gathering spot to the node. What's your solution to this?
