What I feel is a serious problem with AOCs class system and how to, at least partially fix it.

While I love the concept of mixing base archetypes to obtain classes, I feel that the inability to start off (from lvl 1) as the class (fantasy-gameplay style) you want is going to be a pretty bitter pill to swallow for a lot of mmo-rpg fans.

You're probably going to have hundreds of thousands of people who are going to come into this and be like ''okay I want to start playing a warlock/dps holy knight/death knight/shaman/etc'' and find out... they just can't.

Which is a particularly bitter pill to swallow when the whole game is... well, an RPG.

A game where you get to form a personal connection with your character, with the first levels being the most critical-enjoyable in any case, serious period in this relationship.

And with the system as it is... well, that connection is sabotaged early on because you just can't play the class (fantasy/gameplay style you want).

For example, to play a dps holy knight (equivalent of WoW's retribution paladin) I will have to level a fighter (warrior) to level 25... but I don't want to play a warrior to that level, I want to play a dps melee heavy armour cleric. But if I play a melee heavy armour cleric I will never end up as a dps class.

So it's just a profoundly flawed system from this point of view and I'm aware there is no way this is going to change in any SIGNIFICANT WAY but...

but, hear me out

can we at least put some honey on the bitter pill?

Can we add some early on, holy/shadow/elemental/etc magic to the leveling warrior, cleric, mage, etc?

so that, a fighter wanting to end up as a highsword (equivalent of retribution paladin) can get some holy healing/dps/magic absorption spells earlier on?

Or a mage wanting to end up as a warlock can use shadow magic from early on, maybe have a cruse added to some of his spells, maybe even summon an imp or something under certain conditions.

I think that would at least help a bit.

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Noaani

Ironhope wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Your suggestion is akin to the people that come in here and ask for PvE servers because they dont like PvP.

I can only conclude that you misunderstood what I suggested and did so in a very dramatic way.

No, I understood what you said.

You asked for a way for players to gloss over the fact that they are playing a given class, so that they can imagine instead that they are playing a subclass within that class.

If this is not what you are asking for - in essence - then perhaps restate what it is you are asking for. Everything you have said about it points to this being what you are asking for, however.

Players shouldnt be spending the first 20 levels trying to "feel" like they are playing a specific class, and they absolutely should not need to use 'talents' to achieve that. Players already have a means to gradually move in to their secondary class, it just starts AFTER they pick said secondary class.

I mean, your abilities aren't changing when you pick your secondary class, all it does is give you access to augments that you can then apply as you continue to level up, and these augments provide that flavor, as well as function.

You are essentially asking for that to happen before you have a secondary class, meaning players will be able to have archwizard as their secondary, but still have some flavor of warlock from this idea of yours.

Further to that, if Intrepid were to do this, it would require players be presented with 8 'talent' options per ability, that list both the effects the 'talents' have, as well as the subclass they are designed to give the feeling of. That is just too much right there, and it literally going against the reason many games want to have their starting experience use fewer classes than their end game experience.

Azherae

I think I have a more concrete example @Ironhope

"You have reached level 2, please choose between the following abilities so we know which Variant you are playing:

[1] Judgement: Smite your enemy with a Hammer and weaken them
[2] Devotion: Heal your ally."

I am a 'misdirection' Cleric (just assume it's the same as any other 'standard Healer fantasy'). I choose Devotion.

"You have reached level 4, please choose between the following abilities so we know which Variant you are playing:

[1] Judgement: Smite your enemy with a Hammer and weaken them
[2] Castigation: Strike your enemy with a magic whip."
[3] Devotion II: Heal your ally, but better."
[4] Blessing: Heal your ally, but on a delay."

I am still the same style of PLAYER, here it makes a little difference because I wanna do SOME damage. Castigation.

"You have reached level 4, please choose between the following abilities so we know which Variant you are playing:

[1] Judgement: Smite your enemy with a Hammer and weaken them
[2] Castigation II: Strike your enemy with a magic whip."
[3] Devotion II: Heal your ally, but better."
[4] Blessing: Heal your ally, but on a delay."

Now I take Blessing, again, 'normal healer'.

Most games tell you 'here are the skills and talents for your class, pick the ones you like the best. But almost all those games, lots of people pick 'the best ones'. Or the game makes it simple, it 'chooses for you'. It never really asks you this. Or worse, they do both. They choose a sub-path for you and THEN tell you to choose some options anyway with the 'options' not really mattering to the sub-path because all they do is make you slightly more like one of the others instead of more effective at your 'class fantasy'.

Ashes in Alpha-1 didn't do that.

You take Judgement, Castigation, Judgement II, decide if you even care about taking EITHER healing spell.

I take Castigation, both healing spells, and never touch Judgement. I'm not a Templar.

This could start a whole argument about how 'If I play Cleric but I don't heal, people won't group with me!', but that's just a delay on something that was going to happen anyway IF it was going to happen. If you picked a DPS Cleric and it didn't do enough DPS, the sort of person that would never pick you for DPS role is never going to pick you anyway because you tried to blend DPS and 'healer' in the first place and that sort of person doesn't like hybrid builds.

Or, DPS Cleric will just WORK and there is some group out there where you fit perfectly. Point is, that 'problem' isn't the one you care about here. You care about 'feeling like a Templar'.

2Handed Hammer. Heavy Armor. Judgement, Castigation, Judgement II, passives that make you hit harder. If you can't DPS at that point, that is your problem, not 'do you feel like/appear to be a Templar'. If Ashes' MAIN skill Trees for Cleric don't allow you to choose a group of skills that fall under your class fantasy of 'Templar'. It doesn't matter what your Augments do exactly. You mostly want those because they probably offer more useful effects/changes to the TYPE of skills a Templar picks, theoretically you shouldn't need them. It's like being able to choose 'Judgement IV' at level 25 and having your "Judgement IV" be a Templar-exclusive version.

You already did the 'usual thing' and raised Judgement up to Judgement III by then, probably.

EDIT: Fixed 'choices' because I'm too ranty to remember how BBCode works.

Ironhope

Azherae wrote: »

I'm saying that it probably already does this.

If you're happy with that, that's fine.

Perfect.

Azherae wrote: »

Your issue was noted as 'wanting to be a heavy armor DPS Cleric' right? Just do that. Take Cleric skills that match up with that, use passives that match that, equip weapons that match that.

Yeah I will try that but based on the explanations received so far, it's unlikely to work.

Azherae wrote: »

Note that I still agree with you that level 25 is 'too long to wait'. But if you are at level 15 and you chose 8 skills that 'Are good for a DPS Cleric' then you already got what you wanted.

I mean, that would be great.

Azherae wrote: »

I don't think playing Fighter would even make you end up as a Ret Paladin, compared to playing Templar.

I mean, if things stay as they are and choosing a secondary archetype doesn't change your role, you basically have no chance of becoming a DPS as cleric, because you would still be, regardless of talents, gear, etc a healer role.

Ironhope

Noaani wrote: »

You asked for a way for players to gloss over the fact that they are playing a given class, so that they can imagine instead that they are playing a subclass within that class.

I asked that talents allow a slow organic road to a secondary archetype, preferably gameplay wise focused.

So that a lvl 15 mage already has notable warlock traits because that's the talent path he set on taking, while a different mage player at lvl 15 already has notable sorcerer traits because the talent path he decided on taking.

What's wrong with a slow, organic evolution as opposed to one abrupt choice at halfway leveling?

Noaani wrote: »

Players shouldnt be spending the first 20 levels trying to "feel" like they are playing a specific class, and they absolutely should not need to use 'talents' to achieve that.

Why not?

Why is an abrupt, unnatural evolution via one click better than a slow, organic, natural evolution?

Noaani wrote: »

Players already have a means to gradually move in to their secondary class, it just starts AFTER they pick said secondary class.

So very late in the most crucial part of their experience with the game.

Noaani wrote: »

I mean, your abilities aren't changing when you pick your secondary class,

Secondary Archetype will change the already existing abilities, howevever, if you change an ability enough is it the same ability even?

For example, if your ''summon wolf'' ability is now an aoe and summons several skeletons of fallen enemies around you and is named ''raise dead'' is it even the same ability?
Technically yes, it does the exact thing, it's a summoning ability. Maybe it even has the same cooldown and mana cost. But is it really the same ability? Let's be real.

Until alpha 2 or at least an extensive stream (not the ''ohh we're going to reveal the ranger'' --> reveals a handful of abilities and some bow shooting) we're just not going to know.

Noaani wrote: »

You are essentially asking for that to happen before you have a secondary class,

To happen in a small amount as a ''demo'' of what the actual secondary archetype choice will represent.

Noaani wrote: »

meaning players will be able to have archwizard as their secondary, but still have some flavor of warlock from this idea of yours.

No.

I explicitly said the paths should be mutually exclusive.

Noaani wrote: »

Further to that, if Intrepid were to do this, it would require players be presented with 8 'talent' options per ability, that list both the effects the 'talents' have, as well as the subclass they are designed to give the feeling of.

Not necesarelly, the ''talent path'' could just affect a few abilities, not all. I did explicitly say it should be a slow, organic journey.

Ironhope

Azherae wrote: »

Or, DPS Cleric will just WORK and there is some group out there where you fit perfectly. Point is, that 'problem' isn't the one you care about here. You care about 'feeling like a Templar'.

The problem is we've actually gone into two issues and if I went down this path here I would be reviving a dead topic as bloodprophet initially accused me (initially with 0 basis however).

To be short on it, I care about both aspects.

Azherae wrote: »

2Handed Hammer. Heavy Armor. Judgement, Castigation, Judgement II, passives that make you hit harder. If you can't DPS at that point, that is your problem, not 'do you feel like/appear to be a Templar'. If Ashes' MAIN skill Trees for Cleric don't allow you to choose a group of skills that fall under your class fantasy of 'Templar'. It doesn't matter what your Augments do exactly. You mostly want those because they probably offer more useful effects/changes to the TYPE of skills a Templar picks, theoretically you shouldn't need them. It's like being able to choose 'Judgement IV' at level 25 and having your "Judgement IV" be a Templar-exclusive version.

You already did the 'usual thing' and raised Judgement up to Judgement III by then, probably.

EDIT: Fixed 'choices' because I'm too ranty to remember how BBCode works.

Yeah I mean, Templar is a case where you're not going to have a problem living the fantasy because even if it doesn't work in practice you can still put on the heavy gear and 2h as a cleric.

Problem is with classes like Highsword where... well, good luck making the fighter feel like a retribution paladin at least until secondary archetype choice.

And that's unfair for the rpg players who would opt for that fantasy. Same goes for warlocks, shamans, paladins, etc

Noaani

Ironhope wrote: »

And that's unfair for the rpg players who would opt for that fantasy. Same goes for warlocks, shamans, paladins, etc

This right here is - imo - the root of your problem.

You are trying to fulfill a pre-existing fantasy in a word that is designed to create it's own.

Why would you go in to Ashes looking for a WoW RP experience? If you want a WoW RP experience, play WoW. If you want to play Ashes, let it create it's own class themes, rather than trying to push yours on to it.

I mean, Warlock is a great example here. I've played games in which a warlock was a Male witch. I've played games in which a warlock was a sorcerer that used poison and disease magic. I've played games where a warlock uses dimensional magic.

None of the above are wrong, and it is up to Intrepid to decide what they want a Verra warlock to be.

You seem to be expecting each class in Ashes to conform to your assumption about them.

To your point about how the first few levels are the most important - they are. This is why developers tend to guide players through that period far more strictly than other aspects of the game. One of the things developers do is give players fewer choices so they do not become overwhelmed.

If your suggestion has any effect on the abilities at all, then it is just going to cause confusion. If a player picks the warlock 'talent' because they want that specific effect that it adds to their ability, but then opts instead to pick Archwizard as a secondary, they then - according to you - lose that effect they wanted on that ability.

At level 20, this is not really something that should happen.

Now, if you are suggesting that these effects not alter the effect of an ability, just the feel, then what you are talking about are essentially ability cosmetics. If this is indeed what you are talking about, I *STRONGLY* believe Intrepid will sell themed packs of ability cosmetics on the store.

Ironhope

Noaani wrote: »

This right here is - imo - the root of your problem.

You are trying to fulfill a pre-existing fantasy in a word that is designed to create it's own.

Why would you go in to Ashes looking for a WoW RP experience? If you want a WoW RP experience, play WoW. If you want to play Ashes, let it create it's own class themes, rather than trying to push yours on to it.

Again you're misunderstanding what I said (weird as other users such as az did not, probably because he actually reads my rather short posts).

These fantasies (rather loose concepts to begin with) are not being re-created, there is no evidence of this, on the contrary, everything we've seen in terms of class fantasy is 100% within the norms of the general mmo rpg class fantasy realms.

I did not say you should have the WoW warlock in AoC or anything like that.

A warlock is a dark magic, demon summoning caster. It's a very beloved and very common choice of mmo-rpg players everywhere.

And unlike other classes here its not available from lvl 1, together with many other basic fantasy classes.

Nowhere did I say for them to bring the wow class system. That's a strawman. A pseudo-pov you invented yourself and now are attacking.

I said the lower level talents should allow players to evoke, to go on a path that makes them start looking and feeling, at least to some degree, like the secondary archetype they plan to choose.

Noaani wrote: »

None of the above are wrong, and it is up to Intrepid to decide what they want a Verra warlock to be.

What does this have to do with the AoC warlock (which will fit in the general warlock fantasy, again there is no evidence of it being anything out of the ordinary) not being available from lvl 1?

Noaani wrote: »

You seem to be expecting each class in Ashes to conform to your assumption about them.

I seem based on what?
The problem I noted is that there is no lvl 1 warlock or shaman or paladin or highsword or whatever while there are lvl 1 fighters, tanks, mages, rangers, etc

Where did I complain about them not being what I expect?

Noaani wrote: »

This is why developers tend to guide players through that period far more strictly than other aspects of the game

So why not be guided in your fantasy & gameplay style of choice but in another?

Noaani wrote: »

If your suggestion has any effect on the abilities at all, then it is just going to cause confusion. If a player picks the warlock 'talent' because they want that specific effect that it adds to their ability, but then opts instead to pick Archwizard as a secondary, they then - according to you - lose that effect they wanted on that ability.

1. you massively overestimate the level of low level ''path'' talents I suggested.
2. I explicitly said the talent ''paths'' would be mutually exclusive, so if you went into warlock low lvl talents you would lock out the, let's say, spellstone talents.

Noaani

Ironhope wrote: »

A warlock is a dark magic, demon summoning caster.

My dude, that is a Blizzard warlock.

Many, many IP's dont have warlocks as being able to summon at all.

In EQ a warlock is a sorcerer that uses disease and poison in place of elements.

In Pillars of Eternity a warlock is a multi class wizard/barbarian.

A Morrowind warlock has Distruction, Illusion, Restoration, light armor and short blade as its major skills. Conjuration isnt even a minor skill.

In D&D a warlock is a spell caster that gets their magic from a patron (usually a fiend). There isnt inherently any summoning of said fiend as a part of this class.

You cant claim that you are not trying to fulfill a pre-existing fantasy, and then make the claim above as to what a warlock is.

Ludullu

And L2's warlock is a summoner, but he summons cute kitties

Ironhope

Noaani wrote: »

My dude, that is a Blizzard warlock.

That's an absurd claim, that's how a 15th century peasant would describe a warlock.

That's how a warlock looked and worked in D&D on which AoC is to a great degree based on.

That's how warlock worked in the first pc rpg games.

I have no idea where you're getting your claims from but do you have any evidence of warlocks in AoC being non-dark-magic and demon based casters?

In virtually every single example you gave, upon checking I found dark magic use and demon summoning. EQ indeed seems to have no summon ability (it does summon shadows as a buff tho, so still in the fantasy area in question).

In AoC we get warlock by mixing a mage and a SUMMONER.
Do you have any evidence of any sort AoC is doing something unique which won't even involve SUMMONING and stuff like that?

Because as far as I can tell you're just grasping at straws.

Ehrgeiz

20 lvls to learn your core class and then going for the subclasses is the right way to go.

Hinotori

Yeah I'm not seeing any problem with the current design as laid out.

Ironhope

You're not allowed to play your class (fantasy + gameplay style) of choice for 25 levels while others can from the start. That is unfair to say the least.

I suggested talents slowly allow you to morph at least partially until the lvl 25 major choice, into that said class, at least to some visual degree if nothing notable gameplay wise.

What is wrong with that?

Strevi

Ironhope wrote: »

You're not allowed to play your class (fantasy + gameplay style) of choice for 25 levels while others can from the start. That is unfair to say the least.

Maybe the game will call you a Rogue for the first 25 levels and only after that you will be an Assassin.
Not sure if from game-play point of view is important.

Ludullu

Ironhope wrote: »

You're not allowed to play your class (fantasy + gameplay style) of choice for 25 levels while others can from the start. That is unfair to say the least.

This would then imply that all the people who'd want to play their archetype as their main "class" would never be able to come back to it after those 25 lvls. Which in the grand scheme of things is barely even 1% of the overall gameplay time.

And no doubling down on the same archetype wouldn't let you play your preferred "class". I want to play Tank, but if I want to play optimally I'll have to get a secondary archetype and change from Tank to something else. That is unfair to say the least.

Ironhope

NiKr wrote: »

This would then imply that all the people who'd want to play their archetype as their main "class" would never be able to come back to it after those 25 lvls. Which in the grand scheme of things is barely even 1% of the overall gameplay time.

Well no, it does not imply that since you can choose mage + mage or fighter + fighter for your secondary archetype.
So it's the game base fantasy just reenforced.

NiKr wrote: »

And no doubling down on the same archetype wouldn't let you play your preferred "class".

How so? It would be reenforcing the same fantasy and gameplay style.

NiKr wrote: »

I want to play Tank, but if I want to play optimally I'll have to get a secondary archetype and change from Tank to something else. That is unfair to say the least.

Well, you can from level 1.
You can keep said fantasy after 25 by choosing tank again.

Somebody who wants to start his adventure as a warlock for example can't. He has to level a mage to 25.
Which is weird and unfair.

Ludullu

Ironhope wrote: »

Well, you can from level 1.
You can keep said fantasy after 25 by choosing tank again.

Somebody who wants to start his adventure as a warlock for example can't. He has to level a mage to 25.
Which is weird and unfair.

That's my whole point - I can't. I want to be a Tank, not a fucking guardian (whatever the hell that means). But the game forces me to choose something that is not Tank. And then it forces me to play the rest of the game like that. And that potentially years of gameplay. Sounds way more unfair than just a few days that all those classlovers need to play before getting their preferred char.

SirChancelot

I see where you're coming from

Ironhope wrote: »

While I love the concept of mixing base archetypes to obtain classes, I feel that the inability to start off (from lvl 1) as the class (fantasy-gameplay style) you want is going to be a pretty bitter pill to swallow for a lot of mmo-rpg fans.

You're probably going to have hundreds of thousands of people who are going to come into this and be like ''okay I want to start playing a warlock/dps holy knight/death knight/shaman/etc'' and find out... they just can't.

Which is a particularly bitter pill to swallow when the whole game is... well, an RPG.

A game where you get to form a personal connection with your character, with the first levels being the most critical-enjoyable in any case, serious period in this relationship.

And with the system as it is... well, that connection is sabotaged early on because you just can't play the class (fantasy/gameplay style you want).

For example, to play a dps holy knight (equivalent of WoW's retribution paladin) I will have to level a fighter (warrior) to level 25... but I don't want to play a warrior to that level, I want to play a dps melee heavy armour cleric. But if I play a melee heavy armour cleric I will never end up as a dps class.

So it's just a profoundly flawed system from this point of view and I'm aware there is no way this is going to change in any SIGNIFICANT WAY but...

but, hear me out

can we at least put some honey on the bitter pill?

Can we add some early on, holy/shadow/elemental/etc magic to the leveling warrior, cleric, mage, etc?

so that, a fighter wanting to end up as a highsword (equivalent of retribution paladin) can get some holy healing/dps/magic absorption spells earlier on?

Or a mage wanting to end up as a warlock can use shadow magic from early on, maybe have a cruse added to some of his spells, maybe even summon an imp or something under certain conditions.

I think that would at least help a bit.

I see what you're saying but I'm not sure just adding choices of flavor before choosing a class is the right answer.
Maybe shift the level where you choose to 20?
Or allow changing to different secondaries to be easier before level cap.

Depraved

Ironhope wrote: »

You're not allowed to play your class (fantasy + gameplay style) of choice for 25 levels while others can from the start. That is unfair to say the least.

I suggested talents slowly allow you to morph at least partially until the lvl 25 major choice, into that said class, at least to some visual degree if nothing notable gameplay wise.

What is wrong with that?

the game already has too many choices given to the player when it comes to character development. the good thing is they are spread out and not given to you all together at the same time at level 1. that would be too overwhelming.

thats why you gotta wait until level 25.

also, from a fantasy/roleplay perspective, just pretend you are an apprentice and then decide to become a warlock later on

StormCrow820

#1: Idk how it will actually go but my impression is this (I'll relate it to WoW):

If you want to become a DeathKnight, you have to lvl your Warrior or Paladin up to lvl 55 then you go through a process to become a DK.
That's not how it actually works in WoW but in a RP sort of way that's what would make sense.

If you ask me, I think a Ret Paladin would probably start off as a Cleric fledgling, some baby priest who starts using swords or whatever. But what comes first? devotion to the light?- and you use holy stuff mostly and suck with weapons at first? or the battle skills of a fighter, and only later do you get holy influence? and when do you start to blend the two? at lvl 1? 25?
From what it sounds like you want to lvl them both up in tandem, and that's fair. I suppose the RP for you might be off if you have no Holy influence while you lvl up to 25 as a magicless fighter.
But given the circumstances, maybe you'd like the Cleric->Fighter more and try using more melee weapons in your kit somehow. As long as this is a viable DPS option and you aren't pidgin held into being a caster/healer somehow

#2: Mage Vs Warlock
What is a Warlock? you talkin about summoning demons? or using shadow and fire magic? Don't Warlocks start out as mages and get influenced by fel or whatever? I think in WoW Illidan Stormrage was a mage right? and he started messing with demons and fel artifacts or something and that's how he kinda became a warlock or demon influenced right?
Unless you're talking about summoning demons, and even then, to be a summoner what are you? Are you using the arcane to summon? are you creating golems out of the elements? or are you just calling wild animals? All three of these examples might have different sources of magic for how they attain the summoned unit. But if you ask me, I think a Warlock is a corrupted mage baseline

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