PvE Server

How does a PvE server hurt the game exactly?

If you want open world PvP you just play on a PvP server.

The game can be designed the exact same way and nothing needs to change other than on a PvE server, open world PvP is just disabled. You'd still have areas where PvP is enabled, just not the entire map.

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Ludullu

worddog wrote: »

But the argument that PvE servers would actually hurt PvP servers or the game in general has not yet been argued effectively, in my opinion.

Have you heard of a super small super niche super underground little unknown game called World of fucking Warcraft? And all its pvp servers that literally died and pretty much became just 1 fully populated server, while DOZENS of pve servers thrived? Cause that's what we're talking about and giving examples of.

There's also NW's toggle mechanic, where barely anyone has it on, relatively speaking.

worddog wrote: »

The follow-up argument seems to be that vegetarians should not eat food at Papa Bacon's BLTs. But why not? If they want a BLT without any bacon, why should they be restricted from having one, when it literally takes less effort to make than a normal BLT? Because other people think it's stupid?

They are not restricted from it. They can go to literally several other shops that are right around the corner who'd be more than glad to remove the bacon. But here at the "Papa Bacon's" we're proud MURRICAN'S that never remove a wholeass letter from a sandwich.

worddog2

Mag7spy wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

Having followed this project for like 5 years, I’m just going to give you a blunt assessment based on my observations:

- you’re never going to get a PvE Ashes server
- you’re either going to get a PvX Ashes w/tuned corruption, or you’re going to get a FFA PvP Ashes

It’s as simple as the dude funding the whole deal is a stone cold ow pvp fanatic, so when he says ‘this game isn’t for everyone,’ he might be talking to you.

I notice a trend of people wrongly assuming I want a PvE server.

You can defend and argue for things without being personally attached to them.

The point of the topic was:

Why would separate servers that focus on PvE be bad?

People then assumed the point of the topic was:

I want a PvE server, tell me why I shouldn't want one.

A lot of the comments here are just arguing a strawman argument that doesn't actually exist.

So you are just arguing for the sake of arguing without reading the wiki or understanding the vision of the game.

Clearly they are not chasing the PvE money, they are trying to chase the best PvX game on the market because one doesn't exist....

They want the game to have microtransactions and their current business model utilizes FOMO marketing strategies so they're obviously not ignoring the financial side of the business. They understand they have to compromise their vision to some degree to make the game profitable. More profit means more content, so its not like the less money a company makes the better their games will be.

Ludullu

worddog wrote: »

They understand they have to compromise their vision to some degree to make the game profitable.

Where exactly is the "vision comptonization"? Steven doesn't consider cosmetics a win-state and he loves limited/collectible stuff, so both of those things are "within vision" for him.

worddog2

NiKr wrote: »

Have you heard of a super small super niche super underground little unknown game called World of fucking Warcraft? And all its pvp servers that literally died and pretty much became just 1 fully populated server, while DOZENS of pve servers thrived? Cause that's what we're talking about and giving examples of.

That literally is not evidence of anything. The only thing that proves is that people who play WoW prefer PvE servers. So if they didn't have PvE servers and the only option was PvP the game would suffer.

NiKr wrote: »

There's also NW's toggle mechanic, where barely anyone has it on, relatively speaking.

Not talking about opt-in/opt-out PvP. That's a totally different concept and one I agree is awful. Also I always had it on cuz it gave you more stuff like War Mode in WoW, but yeah no one had it on so it was basically just free buffs. Stupid concept that doesn't work I totally agree.

NiKr wrote: »

They are not restricted from it. They can go to literally several other shops that are right around the corner who'd be more than glad to remove the bacon. But here at the "Papa Bacon's" we're proud MURRICAN'S that never remove a wholeass letter from a sandwich.

So they are restricted. What if they prefer Papa Bacon's BLT without bacon more than the McDonalds BLT without bacon down the street? Maybe Papa Bacon has way better sauce or the bun is different.

If you simply want to exclude people for the sake of excluding them that's your prerogative, I just personally disagree.

Mag7spy

worddog wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

Having followed this project for like 5 years, I’m just going to give you a blunt assessment based on my observations:

- you’re never going to get a PvE Ashes server
- you’re either going to get a PvX Ashes w/tuned corruption, or you’re going to get a FFA PvP Ashes

It’s as simple as the dude funding the whole deal is a stone cold ow pvp fanatic, so when he says ‘this game isn’t for everyone,’ he might be talking to you.

I notice a trend of people wrongly assuming I want a PvE server.

You can defend and argue for things without being personally attached to them.

The point of the topic was:

Why would separate servers that focus on PvE be bad?

People then assumed the point of the topic was:

I want a PvE server, tell me why I shouldn't want one.

A lot of the comments here are just arguing a strawman argument that doesn't actually exist.

So you are just arguing for the sake of arguing without reading the wiki or understanding the vision of the game.

Clearly they are not chasing the PvE money, they are trying to chase the best PvX game on the market because one doesn't exist....

They want the game to have microtransactions and their current business model utilizes FOMO marketing strategies so they're obviously not ignoring the financial side of the business. They understand they have to compromise their vision to some degree to make the game profitable. More profit means more content, so its not like the less money a company makes the better their games will be.

You mean doing microtransactions like 80% of all games on the market are doing....I guess you are elaving out no box cost and expansion updates are free on AoC.

Why do you raise some of the most terrible points and argue those bad points are a reason for a pve servers when the game is not being designed as a PvE game. You don't take a game designed as a different purpose and slap PvE on it. The same way it doesn't work when you have a PvE game and slap a PvP world on it where there are no consequences to killing anyone.

You are raising very bad points; you are looking at PvX without understanding it's a different game type than PvE completely.

More money makes a better game, guess you must be into diablo immortal.

worddog2

Mag7spy wrote: »

You mean doing microtransactions like 80% of all games on the market are doing....I guess you are elaving out no box cost and expansion updates are free on AoC.

So if 80% of all games are doing something than Ashes of Creation should also do it?

You're literally giving an argument that you don't even agree with.

I know why they want a cash shop and why they utilize FOMO marketing strategies.

Guess what? I never said they shouldn't.

Once again you have assumed something that is incorrect and built an entire argument around something that no one said.

Mag7spy

worddog wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You mean doing microtransactions like 80% of all games on the market are doing....I guess you are elaving out no box cost and expansion updates are free on AoC.

So if 80% of all games are doing something than Ashes of Creation should also do it?

You're literally giving an argument that you don't even agree with.

I know why they want a cash shop and why they utilize FOMO marketing strategies.

Guess what? I never said they shouldn't.

Once again you have assumed something that is incorrect and built an entire argument around something that no one said.

Are you going to pay a 25$ sub fee?

worddog2

Mag7spy wrote: »

l

worddog wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You mean doing microtransactions like 80% of all games on the market are doing....I guess you are elaving out no box cost and expansion updates are free on AoC.

So if 80% of all games are doing something than Ashes of Creation should also do it?

You're literally giving an argument that you don't even agree with.

I know why they want a cash shop and why they utilize FOMO marketing strategies.

Guess what? I never said they shouldn't.

Once again you have assumed something that is incorrect and built an entire argument around something that no one said.

Are you going to pay a 25$ sub fee?

Isn't it $15?

If you're asking if I would pay a $25 sub fee instead of having a cash shop, my answer is yes I would. I'd also like founder skins to be obtainable in-game.

BUT I DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD DO THAT

Why? Because I think they would have a bigger player base if they lowered the sub fee and implemented a cash shop.

CROW3

worddog wrote: »

The follow-up argument seems to be that vegetarians should not eat food at Papa Bacon's BLTs. But why not? If they want a BLT without any bacon, why should they be restricted from having one, when it literally takes less effort to make than a normal BLT? Because other people think it's stupid?

No, it's because having PvP built into the underpinnings of a game's systems and simply adding bacon to a sandwich aren't analogous. Ashes is elementally an OW PvP game, it's not added in like a condiment. The bacon is baked into the bread, the grease covers the entire kitchen, including the cutting boards the lettuce and tomatoes are sliced on. So, I'm not saying you can't pick whatever you want out of your BLT to make it vegetarian, I'm just saying you're not going to be served a BLT without bacon.

Again, if you want to make the argument that the creation and management of PvE servers would take too much effort, that's a totally reasonable conversation to have, but saying their existence would actually ruin the game just doesn't make any sense.

Here you go:

https://youtu.be/aNpiuKCX3Dk

Mag7spy

worddog wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

l

worddog wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You mean doing microtransactions like 80% of all games on the market are doing....I guess you are elaving out no box cost and expansion updates are free on AoC.

So if 80% of all games are doing something than Ashes of Creation should also do it?

You're literally giving an argument that you don't even agree with.

I know why they want a cash shop and why they utilize FOMO marketing strategies.

Guess what? I never said they shouldn't.

Once again you have assumed something that is incorrect and built an entire argument around something that no one said.

Are you going to pay a 25$ sub fee?

Isn't it $15?

If you're asking if I would pay a $25 sub fee instead of having a cash shop, my answer is yes I would. I'd also like founder skins to be obtainable in-game.

BUT I DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD DO THAT

Why? Because I think they would have a bigger player base if they lowered the sub fee and implemented a cash shop.

Why are you saying this then if you understand the basics....

So if 80% of all games are doing something than Ashes of Creation should also do it?

Allaeius

worddog wrote: »

How does a PvE server hurt the game exactly?

If you want open world PvP you just play on a PvP server.

The game can be designed the exact same way and nothing needs to change other than on a PvE server, open world PvP is just disabled. You'd still have areas where PvP is enabled, just not the entire map.

1. Who wants to do Caravans when it turns on PvP? Better to use Mules and do multiple round trips for safety since PvP is not turned on in the open world.

2. Who cares about auction houses when you can gather everything on your own without any possible interruptions?

3. Who wants to store their items in a Node's warehouse or a house or a Freehold when they can be destroyed in a siege? Better to keep them all on your alts in the open world since no one can kill you.

You say the game can be designed in the exact same way and yet with only these 3 points, a PvE server will completely destroy the game's core designs and gameplay mechanics. This game is built around those PvP gameplay systems first and foremost (Nodes). If there isn't any risks involved for players to keep anything in their Nodes, they won't care about Nodes.

worddog2

CROW3 wrote: »

No, it's because having PvP built into the underpinnings of a game's systems and simply adding bacon to a sandwich aren't analogous. Ashes is elementally an OW PvP game, it's not added in like a condiment. The bacon is baked into the bread, the grease covers the entire kitchen, including the cutting boards the lettuce and tomatoes are sliced on. So, I'm not saying you can't pick whatever you want out of your BLT to make it vegetarian, I'm just saying you're not going to be served a BLT without bacon.

PvP is not built into the underpinning of every single part of Ashes of Creation. When you are doing a quest at level 10, the possibility of being ganked by another player is not core to that experience. It's core to the experience a PvPer wants specifically. PvP is core to a lot of systems and that's why I say what I say in the next part of my post...

CROW3 wrote: »

Here you go: https://youtu.be/aNpiuKCX3Dk

I'd prefer your own argument rather than just posting someone else's YouTube video but I'll respond to it anyway.

The guy in that video is making claims of what a PvE server must be. He is not accounting for the fact a PvE server can have all the things he says it can't have.

Literally the minimum requirement for a PvE server, is disabling optional PvP.

A PvE server could be as simple as no Open World PvP outside of content such as dungeons, caravans, worldbosses, raids, etc...

People who PvP at that content can be corrupted and bounty hunters can go kill them.

Obviously there would be less corruption, and less bounty hunting, but that's also because PvE players wouldn't even want that in the first place. If they wanted that they would just play on a PvP server.

Now there are a million ways you could set up a PvE server, some requiring more effort and some requiring less effort, if you want to argue how much effort should be put in we can argue that but currently we're just arguing the actual concept of a PvE server.

Mag7spy

worddog wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

No, it's because having PvP built into the underpinnings of a game's systems and simply adding bacon to a sandwich aren't analogous. Ashes is elementally an OW PvP game, it's not added in like a condiment. The bacon is baked into the bread, the grease covers the entire kitchen, including the cutting boards the lettuce and tomatoes are sliced on. So, I'm not saying you can't pick whatever you want out of your BLT to make it vegetarian, I'm just saying you're not going to be served a BLT without bacon.

PvP is not built into the underpinning of every single part of Ashes of Creation. When you are doing a quest at level 10, the possibility of being ganked by another player is not core to that experience. It's core to the experience a PvPer wants specifically. PvP is core to a lot of systems and that's why I say what I say in the next part of my post...

CROW3 wrote: »

Here you go: https://youtu.be/aNpiuKCX3Dk

I'd prefer your own argument rather than just posting someone else's YouTube video but I'll respond to it anyway.

The guy in that video is making claims of what a PvE server must be. He is not accounting for the fact a PvE server can have all the things he says it can't have.

Literally the minimum requirement for a PvE server, is disabling optional PvP.

A PvE server could be as simple as no Open World PvP outside of content such as dungeons, caravans, worldbosses, raids, etc...

People who PvP at that content can be corrupted and bounty hunters can go kill them.

Obviously there would be less corruption, and less bounty hunting, but that's also because PvE players wouldn't even want that in the first place. If they wanted that they would just play on a PvP server.

Now there are a million ways you could set up a PvE server, some requiring more effort and some requiring less effort, if you want to argue how much effort should be put in we can argue that but currently we're just arguing the actual concept of a PvE server.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH2EPR8ido4

worddog2

Mag7spy wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

No, it's because having PvP built into the underpinnings of a game's systems and simply adding bacon to a sandwich aren't analogous. Ashes is elementally an OW PvP game, it's not added in like a condiment. The bacon is baked into the bread, the grease covers the entire kitchen, including the cutting boards the lettuce and tomatoes are sliced on. So, I'm not saying you can't pick whatever you want out of your BLT to make it vegetarian, I'm just saying you're not going to be served a BLT without bacon.

PvP is not built into the underpinning of every single part of Ashes of Creation. When you are doing a quest at level 10, the possibility of being ganked by another player is not core to that experience. It's core to the experience a PvPer wants specifically. PvP is core to a lot of systems and that's why I say what I say in the next part of my post...

CROW3 wrote: »

Here you go: https://youtu.be/aNpiuKCX3Dk

I'd prefer your own argument rather than just posting someone else's YouTube video but I'll respond to it anyway.

The guy in that video is making claims of what a PvE server must be. He is not accounting for the fact a PvE server can have all the things he says it can't have.

Literally the minimum requirement for a PvE server, is disabling optional PvP.

A PvE server could be as simple as no Open World PvP outside of content such as dungeons, caravans, worldbosses, raids, etc...

People who PvP at that content can be corrupted and bounty hunters can go kill them.

Obviously there would be less corruption, and less bounty hunting, but that's also because PvE players wouldn't even want that in the first place. If they wanted that they would just play on a PvP server.

Now there are a million ways you could set up a PvE server, some requiring more effort and some requiring less effort, if you want to argue how much effort should be put in we can argue that but currently we're just arguing the actual concept of a PvE server.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH2EPR8ido4

nice meme

worddog2

Allaeius wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

How does a PvE server hurt the game exactly?

If you want open world PvP you just play on a PvP server.

The game can be designed the exact same way and nothing needs to change other than on a PvE server, open world PvP is just disabled. You'd still have areas where PvP is enabled, just not the entire map.

1. Who wants to do Caravans when it turns on PvP? Better to use Mules and do multiple round trips for safety since PvP is not turned on in the open world.

2. Who cares about auction houses when you can gather everything on your own without any possible interruptions?

3. Who wants to store their items in a Node's warehouse or a house or a Freehold when they can be destroyed in a siege? Better to keep them all on your alts in the open world since no one can kill you.

You say the game can be designed in the exact same way and yet with only these 3 points, a PvE server will completely destroy the game's core designs and gameplay mechanics. This game is built around those PvP gameplay systems first and foremost (Nodes). If there isn't any risks involved for players to keep anything in their Nodes, they won't care about Nodes.

1. Being able to transport 10x the resources at a faster speed might still be useful. If you know a resource is being bought for a high price on the other side of the world, taking 10x longer to get there could drastically lower your profits. But it totally could be the case that caravans are never used which would be an issue.

I think the only catchall answer to that would be enabling PvP for players with a certain amount of goods, or possibly the fastest trade routes have PvP enabled. Again my definition of a PvE server is disabling optional PvP not all PvP.

2. Auction houses are still used in PvE servers in other MMOs. Also because of how the artisan specialization works you'd still need to rely on other players for things. You can't gather everything on your own.

3. That applies to PvP servers as well, you can't kill an alt if they are logged out.

CROW3

worddog wrote: »

A PvE server could be as simple as no Open World PvP outside of content such as dungeons, caravans, worldbosses, raids, etc...

I agree. Where we disagree is that you think Ashes of Creation still exists in that defined state, and I don't.

worddog2

CROW3 wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

A PvE server could be as simple as no Open World PvP outside of content such as dungeons, caravans, worldbosses, raids, etc...

I agree. Where we disagree is that you think Ashes of Creation still exists in that defined state, and I don't.

Yeah that's fair. But I don't see how that matters when you wouldn't ever experience that state. If a BLT isn't a BLT without bacon, who cares? You still get to have your BLT with bacon.

CROW3

worddog wrote: »

Yeah that's fair. But I don't see how that matters when you wouldn't ever experience that state. If a BLT isn't a BLT without bacon, who cares? You still get to have your BLT with bacon.

I agree that you don’t see it. That’s two things we agree on. We’re almost BFFs. 🤗

Strevi

worddog wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

Having followed this project for like 5 years, I’m just going to give you a blunt assessment based on my observations:

- you’re never going to get a PvE Ashes server
- you’re either going to get a PvX Ashes w/tuned corruption, or you’re going to get a FFA PvP Ashes

It’s as simple as the dude funding the whole deal is a stone cold ow pvp fanatic, so when he says ‘this game isn’t for everyone,’ he might be talking to you.

I notice a trend of people wrongly assuming I want a PvE server.

You can defend and argue for things without being personally attached to them.

The point of the topic was:

Why would separate servers that focus on PvE be bad?

People then assumed the point of the topic was:

I want a PvE server, tell me why I shouldn't want one.

A lot of the comments here are just arguing a strawman argument that doesn't actually exist.

You intentionally create the topics in a controversial way. That is your real objective.

worddog2

CROW3 wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

Yeah that's fair. But I don't see how that matters when you wouldn't ever experience that state. If a BLT isn't a BLT without bacon, who cares? You still get to have your BLT with bacon.

I agree that you don’t see it. That’s two things we agree on. We’re almost BFFs. 🤗

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