Full Loot PvP Areas.

Whilst perusing the world map and looking over the islands of Sujoma, Draakathbohr and Peligora, I couldn't help but think that AoC might benefit from having some full loot PvP areas. What we have seen of the corruption system is nice (I also think it might be a good idea to have some completely safe areas like the actual Node settlements) but I have a concern that there won't be enough "gear churn" for gathering and crafting to always be in significant demand across the different tiers of gear.

If for example, you had one or more of those islands as a full loot zone, it could be completely avoided by people not interested in that type of gameplay, but for those who are interested in "Risk vs Reward" you would provide a space for people to gear up, ship out and then fight on a full loot island. It would create a continuous demand for gear of all different tiers as many may only want to equip lower-end cheaper gear to explore the island as if they die they won't lose too much.

It would create demand at the auction houses for people wanting/needing to replace sets they lose.

Currently, you can only lose gatherables upon death from your personal inventory (as well as suffer a durability loss which can be repaired for a silver sink) You can lose stuff that is loaded onto a caravan and a ship but where/when will you ever need to craft/replace a piece of gear once you have one? Perhaps there could be a trash rate applied to gear that when knocked down so that there is a chance a piece of gear you are wearing or weapon you are using trashes and needs to be replaced.

If a server is around 8000 people, where will the demand for sets come from after 8000 of a particular one has been crafted?

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Sengarden

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

@Sengarden don't worry, you shouldn't worry so much in defending your point about this, because the point is a mistake in itself

In the beginning people will come to the hell island with any garbage they can and they will try to ambush others and rob them

In the long run people will be so rich in the game that they will have many legendaries to spare and enough PvP experience, those guys will come in legendaries to the hell island

The point you are bringing is kinda like this: what matters is grinding and hoarding and never losing anything
Economically this makes sense IF you are bad or IF you don't have the right group to run with... but if you THINK you are on top of it then you will bring good gear

My point is that grinding and hoarding hurts the player experience in the long run because then the game becomes a second job

If there's arenas with 0%, 50% and 100% loot drops... people will have more fun in the 100% even if everybody start with garbage gear. In the long run the people who are better in PvP will update gear each season and the drops will get better

Hoarding is the carebearing

PvPers don't care about that, in Ultima Online almost everything I had was stolen from other players and I went to live in Bucaneer's Den (a full PvP city with no guards) using full Onyx armor and full Onyx weapons and magical weapons

See?
PvPers don't care, they steal and pillage and burn equipment for grabbing more equipment

PvPer logic is very different, I know PvPers who are gambling addicts

So you want to make a content path that only rewards the small handful of players like you who are good enough at PvP to sit at the top of the pile, and a content labyrinth for all the PvP edge-lord wannabes / gambling addicts to spin themselves through, basically just so you can have people to murder for fun in your awesome gear that you stole from someone else just because you managed to kill them one time?

The people coming to fight you will almost always have worse gear than you. If they didn’t, why would they be fighting for your gear? So you won’t care about the gear at that point, you’ll just be doing it to get relatively easy PvP kills in your special little area that doesn’t have almost anyone threatening you in good gear. You want to create a system that allows you the chance to get to the top and lord over anyone who’s simple-minded enough to think if they spend another week’s worth of resources doing an island run, then maybe, just maybe, they’ll hit the big time and catch you with your pants down.

This just seems like the kind of system that either needs to be the basis of the game or not in the game at all. It’s very extreme, and in my opinion, a waste of virtual real-estate, considering the entire map will be traversable with no instanced islands in between landmasses.

WHIT3ROS3

Sengarden wrote: »

So you want to make a content path that only rewards the small handful of players like you who are good enough at PvP to sit at the top of the pile, and a content labyrinth for all the PvP edge-lord wannabes / gambling addicts to spin themselves through, basically just so you can have people to murder for fun in your awesome gear that you stole from someone else just because you managed to kill them one time?
.

I think you need to take a little step back. Yeesh. The initial suggestion came from a place of thinking about what might be good for the game. You clearly have some weird personal baggage-laden agenda that is clouding your view. Weird.

Depraved

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Wait, now that I think about it, WE SHOULD DO IT! All the literal psychos that want this kind of content will just go constantly die on some random island in the middle of nowhere, while everyone else can just enjoy they game normally.

I know you are being sarcastic but this thought did originally cross my mind. If you had a full loot island, for those so inclined, it would give them a place to go. Just to say also, full loot is just one more step from what is already in the game. You can kill someone and take their gatherable/harvestable, just not their gear.

gatherables are easier to acquire. gear will take months T_T that's what ur not getting.

for full loot u need gear to be easily acquired. and if gear is easily acquired it will destroy other systems in aoc that are there and were designed considering gear will not easily be acquired. so its not as simple as adding such island...you would need to change many other things as well.

its not even gonna help the economy. people dropping level 10 gear that no one wants lmao or npc bought gear.

I'm not opposed to the idea maybe 1 or 2 years after the game is out. adding some items that can only be acquired in that area and only in that area. otherwise going there is pointless

Sengarden

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

Sengarden wrote: »

So you want to make a content path that only rewards the small handful of players like you who are good enough at PvP to sit at the top of the pile, and a content labyrinth for all the PvP edge-lord wannabes / gambling addicts to spin themselves through, basically just so you can have people to murder for fun in your awesome gear that you stole from someone else just because you managed to kill them one time?
.

I think you need to take a little step back. Yeesh. The initial suggestion came from a place of thinking about what might be good for the game. You clearly have some weird personal baggage-laden agenda that is clouding your view. Weird.

I was mostly referring to the person I quoted, who seems to take an odd degree of pride in insulting and dismissing the opinions of anyone who doesn’t completely agree with their PvP preferences. So forgive me for being a bit harsh. The quote you picked out of my post is a fairly accurate reiteration of the situation @Arya_Yeshe just now described themselves being in during UO. Top of the food chain with the vast majority of other players in the system wearing worse gear, logically making the majority of fights fairly easy. They called some the players in this system gambling addicts, I assume IRL, I was just borrowing that from them. But really, that’s what participating in this system is, right? Especially if you never make it to the top but consistently throw away investments hoping you will. That’s the picture which they themselves just now painted. Do you not agree?

I can see from your posts that you’re primarily focused on finding a way to keep cycling new gear into the game. That is appreciable. I still don’t think this is the best way to do so, primarily for the reason that it would be using up dev time and world space to create a system that is highly unlikely to appear attractive to enough players in a PvX game for the gear-sink to function at a noticeable enough level or for the content to entertain enough players to make the investment worthwhile.

WHIT3ROS3

Depraved wrote: »

gatherables are easier to acquire. gear will take months T_T that's what ur not getting.

How exactly will gear take "months" to acquire? If that is the case and crafters are responsible for making BIS gear where exactly is the demand for gear going to come from?

Noaani

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

gatherables are easier to acquire. gear will take months T_T that's what ur not getting.

How exactly will gear take "months" to acquire? If that is the case and crafters are responsible for making BIS gear where exactly is the demand for gear going to come from?

While we don't know how gear in Ashes will work, literally no one in Archeage ever got fully geared out. Everyone always had better gear to strive for - and all of that gear required crafters.

I would happily wager that the only way gear in Ashes won't take "months" to acquire is if you settle for less than the best you can get.

daveywavey

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Dropping gear does not remove said gear from the circulation, it only shifts the owner. This is why I said "no".

Not if you include a sizeable trash rate % upon death. This means that you could lose up to 100% of the items.

This isn't really about PvP or PvE, it's about how to maintain demand for materials and goods for gatherers and crafters.

You're presuming that a gatherer can/will only gather leather. If the demand is for something else, why would they keep gathering leather? They'd go and gather the other material instead. This keeps them relevant without having to go Full Loot.

I couldn't find the reference in the couple of minutes that I spent looking for it, but I remember them saying that items are a component in crafting the next tier up, so presumably there'll be a constant demand for all the earlier crafted items, so that the later ones can also be created. This keeps the leather relevant without having to go Full Loot.

Full Loot isn't necessary in Ashes.

Hinotori

While I'm not against the idea of full loot areas I think they'd just become an automatically avoided area unless there was some massive incentive to go there. I think along the same lines as some of the other folks here that it'd become a niche den for the psychos who love that gameplay but overall it wouldn't add value to the game.

If you're worried about economy then next livestream start asking Steven about what item and gold sinks is he thinking of adding to remove goods from the economy.

Ehrgeiz

Make it an instanced arena with 1 vs 1 or whatever.

Full loot pvp is just dumb in a mmo.

WHIT3ROS3

Noaani wrote: »

While we don't know how gear in Ashes will work,

Exactly. Some people here seem to have very defined ideas of how different systems will work in the game when we haven't seen a single thing regarding them. Stated intentions and goals change as development continues, we have seen this already with the stated changes regarding flagging on the open sea.

I have been following for a few years and really enjoy the development process, I think the rigid way in which some people are considering suggestions is strange.

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

Full loot pvp is just dumb in a mmo.

Like this kind of statement. Regardless of your personal feelings towards a system, this is just demonstrably not true. Two of the most successful MMORPGs ever are games with full loot components. I personally am not even that bothered about partaking in full loot activities and spend most of my time in non-full loot areas in games like Albion Online. However, I recognise that there is a significant player base that does like that type of gameplay and it just struck me that making a single island of around 50 sqkm in a 1200sqkm game to appeal to those types of players may be beneficial for the game and its success.

A "Full loot" area is just one step further than what is already in the game. You can already attack anyone anywhere (an aspect that I honestly think is a mistake) and take the contents of one inventory. Full loot zones would just allow you to also take the other inventory after a trash rate as well.

MMOAddict

NiKr wrote: »

Wait, now that I think about it, WE SHOULD DO IT! All the literal psychos that want this kind of content will just go constantly die on some random island in the middle of nowhere, while everyone else can just enjoy they game normally.

intriguing idea, however lets not attract them to the game in the first place by not having an island like that

Arya_Yeshe

Sengarden wrote: »

So you want to make a content path that only rewards the small handful of players like you who are good enough at PvP to sit at the top of the pile, and a content labyrinth for all the PvP edge-lord wannabes / gambling addicts to spin themselves through, basically just so you can have people to murder for fun in your awesome gear that you stole from someone else just because you managed to kill them one time?

The people coming to fight you will almost always have worse gear than you. If they didn’t, why would they be fighting for your gear? So you won’t care about the gear at that point, you’ll just be doing it to get relatively easy PvP kills in your special little area that doesn’t have almost anyone threatening you in good gear. You want to create a system that allows you the chance to get to the top and lord over anyone who’s simple-minded enough to think if they spend another week’s worth of resources doing an island run, then maybe, just maybe, they’ll hit the big time and catch you with your pants down.

This just seems like the kind of system that either needs to be the basis of the game or not in the game at all. It’s very extreme, and in my opinion, a waste of virtual real-estate, considering the entire map will be traversable with no instanced islands in between landmasses.

This has nothing to do with reward, this is just how normal PvP is, this is just normal

See You are still seeing through the carebear lens... rewards... accumulating... hoarding... meta gear... resources... getting richer

I get the sad vibes just by reading in this order: rewards... accumulating... hoarding... meta gear... resources... getting richer
Yuck! Nauseating

PvPers only see the challenge ahead of them, they gear up and go, they don't have these sad thoughs your brought to the table

Arya_Yeshe

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

Make it an instanced arena with 1 vs 1 or whatever.

Full loot pvp is just dumb in a mmo.

Dumb seeing things that way ahahahaah

How about treating the player as adults?

Let the players join arena divisions, 0% loot, 50% loot, 100% loot

Let the adults decide what they are in for

Arya_Yeshe

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

How about having gambling arenas?
But gambling your own gear only, nobody else is allowed to gamble otherwise people will manipulate results

I will explain as Conference and Divisions since many people are familiar with these terms.

Boring Conference:
0% loot drop division

Carebears

AFK players farming tokens or something

Gold farmers

Grown up Chad PvPer Conference:
50% drop aka junior division

100% drop aka master division

Sweaty PvP

Having solo or teams is fine

Depraved

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

gatherables are easier to acquire. gear will take months T_T that's what ur not getting.

How exactly will gear take "months" to acquire? If that is the case and crafters are responsible for making BIS gear where exactly is the demand for gear going to come from?

ask steven. after all, he said it, not me

Dygz

Well, it's intended to be a few weeks to reach City stage and many weeks to reach Metro stage... and Crafting BiS gear after that will not be instantaneous, so...
If it does actually take many weeks to progress to Metro - that's basically a couple of months to BiS gear.

Strevi

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

If for example, you had one or more of those islands as a full loot zone, it could be completely avoided by people not interested in that type of gameplay, but for those who are interested in "Risk vs Reward" you would provide a space for people to gear up, ship out and then fight on a full loot island. It would create a continuous demand for gear of all different tiers as many may only want to equip lower-end cheaper gear to explore the island as if they die they won't lose too much.

There are people who like to climb without a safety net or jump from a building to another or from a helicopter onto a mountain slope and do crazy things.
They are not many and their existence does not create a continuous demand for something.

While the full loot concept is easy to implement on a remote island, the game should also offer a reward for those who enter those areas, a reward which is not desired by the other players who do not like this kind of balance. For example while I would like to be tempted to enter that area, the exploration itself is not rewarding. I can watch a youtube video instead to see what is there, if I am curious enough. Achievements given if I find something there also is not something I want. High tier materials could be tempting but then, those drop in dungeons and raids.

It could be something which can be used only there, like special gear which can be used only in that place and lost only in that place. You grind for it there and you can also lose it there.
Eventually this can be turned into an arena with arena specific gear.
If you want to loot what players gathered on the rest of the map, in raids and dungeons, better camp them when they exit those dungeons and camp their caravans later.

But I appreciate the intention behind the suggestion. Maybe can be improved. Or was already? I didn't checked other posts.

Falkath

I wonder if you know the differences between MMORPGS and survival games ? I suggest you look it up.
First a full loot zone would just be avoided by anyone with decent gear not to lose hours of work. The main idea behind starting an MMORPG is that you'll have to work for your stuff, not just sneakly loot it off someone unlucky. And no your armor won't decay to be useless at some point, you can repair it.
Will there be enough demand on crafting if 8000 players have 8000 of the same item ? Well in what world would everyone want one specific item and be happy about it? There will always be something more you'll want, a ship, a second set, a new kind of weapon, a new house,... crafting can't die in a game like that, there is always going to be demand even if it can change, also gear isn't just 4 tiers where if everyone gets last tier the game is over. You can always improve your gear and your stats.

Arya_Yeshe

Falkath wrote: »

I wonder if you know the differences between MMORPGS and survival games ? I suggest you look it up.
First a full loot zone would just be avoided by anyone with decent gear not to lose hours of work. The main idea behind starting an MMORPG is that you'll have to work for your stuff, not just sneakly loot it off someone unlucky. And no your armor won't decay to be useless at some point, you can repair it.
Will there be enough demand on crafting if 8000 players have 8000 of the same item ? Well in what world would everyone want one specific item and be happy about it? There will always be something more you'll want, a ship, a second set, a new kind of weapon, a new house,... crafting can't die in a game like that, there is always going to be demand even if it can change, also gear isn't just 4 tiers where if everyone gets last tier the game is over. You can always improve your gear and your stats.

Lies and slander

People will finally THINK and PREPRE and PLAN about how they would into such area, yes people would bring good gear because they will be so rich and have so many different sets that they will have good stuff to spare and have some adrenalin rush in there

Possibly people would come mostly using trash, but that is not a permanent thing

Strevi

Falkath wrote: »

I wonder if you know the differences between MMORPGS and survival games ? I suggest you look it up.
First a full loot zone would just be avoided by anyone with decent gear not to lose hours of work. The main idea behind starting an MMORPG is that you'll have to work for your stuff, not just sneakly loot it off someone unlucky. And no your armor won't decay to be useless at some point, you can repair it.
Will there be enough demand on crafting if 8000 players have 8000 of the same item ? Well in what world would everyone want one specific item and be happy about it? There will always be something more you'll want, a ship, a second set, a new kind of weapon, a new house,... crafting can't die in a game like that, there is always going to be demand even if it can change, also gear isn't just 4 tiers where if everyone gets last tier the game is over. You can always improve your gear and your stats.

Quick search:

MMORPG vs Survival Multiplayer RPG, whats the differences?
In an MMORPG you can't build structures anywhere and you aren't required to hunt for food and water. Thus sandbox survival games are in fact their own genre of online games. In MMORPGs, food and water are simply used to regain health or mana quicker, but are not required to maintain health.

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