Simple proof of Vanilla WoW prep before raid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaFdVeK-gpo

Isn't this beautiful to see? Imagine all hours spend to prepare like this guy, the grind, the people you meet, the enemies you kill in open world, all the adventures? This is what makes MMO epic.

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VekoKrava

No seriously, can you explain why is it bad to prepare for ''main content''. It's just making to game has more content. In New World I don't see why I would farm gold daily in order to play battlegrounds or PvE... That is not good design...

Noaani

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Can you explain why it was not good?

I admit I am comparing it to gw2 or New World economy.

It wasnt good because it was one dimensional. The developers didnt supply players with an actual vibrant economy in which there are dozens or hundreds of ways to interact with it, they provided players with grind based content to produce consumables of questionable value that could then be sold to others in order for them to skip that grind.

Look in to EVE and/or Archeages economy. As an example of EVE's commitment to it's in game economy, they hired an actual Economics PhD to develop and manage the games economy. WoWs nitial development disnt have a single PhD at all, from my understanding.

Mag7spy

Grinding 20-30 hours a week per person to get buffs is a trash system meant to gate keep people from doing content.

There is nothing wrong with overall group preparation for content in craft and making getting a few things. But if you need to do certain daily quest to get a limited time buff, run around the world to pick up a bunch of other buffs, and do a bunch of other none sense that is just gatekeeping and not good content.

Arya_Yeshe

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

@Arya_Yeshe

Can you explain why?

Where do I even begin?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUpIKRjYlR0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6j_UsGJnkQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrW6p5ns8K8

EVE is the only real economy in gaming, you can actually measure your production from ingame to real life dollars
You can calculate EVE's production in real world's GDP and here is why

EVE has tens of thousands of items and nearly all are made or gathered by players.
Also everytime you die, you lose your ship 100%, it's all gone, then you gotta build, buy or have another ship in your hangar

So in EVE everything is burnning and being rebuilt by players

VekoKrava

Basically this guy that I watched on youtube spoke about things I will never understand because its complex and I do not know IRL economy well.

Now I wonder what are you buying in EVE online, since its space-ship game do you buy repair kits for ship that work like potions or stuff similar to consumables or are you just buying ammunition and ships and weapons maybe that are attached to ships?

I am trying to understand if currency feels like IRL money (that means it has worth because other materials that can be bought are ''expensive'') why are you then opposing this idea of vanilla wow which is much more simpler then eve online economy. Basically you need to do gathering / some mobs killing in order to get these consumables that give player power which is important because if it did not give player power then it would be useless. I am trying to understand this???

VekoKrava

Mag7spy wrote: »

Grinding 20-30 hours a week per person to get buffs is a trash system meant to gate keep people from doing content.

There is nothing wrong with overall group preparation for content in craft and making getting a few things. But if you need to do certain daily quest to get a limited time buff, run around the world to pick up a bunch of other buffs, and do a bunch of other none sense that is just gatekeeping and not good content.

Basically what you are saying you want to not play game during ''free'' time??? I assume that you would PVP in open world especially in MMO like AoC where there is drop loot on death. It makes things more fun. Why would you do professions that are useless for end game content, I mean what would you do if there is no prep before sieges or PvE bosses? It would feel very boring.

Arya_Yeshe

I love GW2 overall, but there is no economy also because there's no item destruction

The auction house even tough it works, the economical aspects of it is pure trash!
The materials cost way more than buying finished items, because everybody grinds professions by buying materials and them dump the items in the auction house

So people are buying infinite materials and trying to sell infinite finished products, but there's no item destruction
Items only get destroyed if you salvage an item in attempt for getting some materials out of it

Arya_Yeshe

So game's economies are mostly broken because: carebears!

Since they whine and cry if they lose stuff, then there's no item destruction so there's no real economy and the auction houses are a flagrant proof of it

VekoKrava

I am really trying hard to understand why you oppose this idea of grinding professions in ''free time'', especially in a mmo that has pvp drop loot. It gives so much more to the existing world if materials and consumables/gear is expensive, because you would take care of every penny as in IRL if you had to.... This gives MMO only good vibes, I don't see why is grinding bad?

What would you do in MMO open world if you did not do professions? Outside of events that can be very repetitive and boring from my point of view, doing professions isn't because its like IRL work, plus theres this thrill of getting ganked.

VekoKrava

See, in vanilla wow economy did not collapse once, why? because devs set prices for items via vendors, well not every item but some mandatory like bags, so we had an idea of how much something would cost. Boring way of doing it, but limiting it is better then giving players full power and risking whole economy which happened in NW basically...

That is like if you were dictator that is all up for compassion and peace and stability and if you were very wise and knowledgeable, would you risk everything or make stability in your country?

Arya_Yeshe

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I am really trying hard to understand why you oppose this idea of grinding professions in ''free time'', especially in a mmo that has pvp drop loot. It gives so much more to the existing world if materials and consumables/gear is expensive, because you would take care of every penny as in IRL if you had to.... This gives MMO only good vibes, I don't see why is grinding bad?

What would you do in MMO open world if you did not do professions? Outside of events that can be very repetitive and boring from my point of view, doing professions isn't because its like IRL work, plus theres this thrill of getting ganked.

Point where I said it's wrong grinding professions, I never said that

I said:
there is no item destruction and on top of it people are making infinite items

What do you think it's gonna happen if people make infinite items but no items are destroyed?

Arya_Yeshe

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

See, in vanilla wow economy did not collapse once, why? because devs set prices for items via vendors, well not every item but some mandatory like bags, so we had an idea of how much something would cost. Boring way of doing it, but limiting it is better then giving players full power and risking whole economy which happened in NW basically...

That is like if you were dictator that is all up for compassion and peace and stability and if you were very wise and knowledgeable, would you risk everything or make stability in your country?

Vanilla wow had an increasing population, that's all, once the population is stable then it gets messed up

What happened in wow is that crafting became pointless, Asmongold explains why and I already knew for years why

Mag7spy

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Grinding 20-30 hours a week per person to get buffs is a trash system meant to gate keep people from doing content.

There is nothing wrong with overall group preparation for content in craft and making getting a few things. But if you need to do certain daily quest to get a limited time buff, run around the world to pick up a bunch of other buffs, and do a bunch of other none sense that is just gatekeeping and not good content.

Basically what you are saying you want to not play game during ''free'' time??? I assume that you would PVP in open world especially in MMO like AoC where there is drop loot on death. It makes things more fun. Why would you do professions that are useless for end game content, I mean what would you do if there is no prep before sieges or PvE bosses? It would feel very boring.

You are completely missing the point I'm getting across....

20-30 hours person
if you need to do certain daily quest to get a limited time buff, run around the world to pick up a bunch of other buffs, and do a bunch of other none sense that is just gatekeeping and not good content.

That kind of content is trash.

Arya_Yeshe

WoW is garbage
WoW economy is garbage
WoW crafting system is garbage

VekoKrava

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

See, in vanilla wow economy did not collapse once, why? because devs set prices for items via vendors, well not every item but some mandatory like bags, so we had an idea of how much something would cost. Boring way of doing it, but limiting it is better then giving players full power and risking whole economy which happened in NW basically...

That is like if you were dictator that is all up for compassion and peace and stability and if you were very wise and knowledgeable, would you risk everything or make stability in your country?

Vanilla wow had an increasing population, that's all, once the population is stable then it gets messed up

What happened in wow is that crafting became pointless, Asmongold explains why and I already knew for years why

Can you send me that video, because its important if he is talking about modern wow or vanilla wow....

I am ''new'' to MMOs, I only played Gloria Victis, gw2, little bit of eso and New World and WoW for 15 years, once I tried vanilla WoW for first time in 2019 (because I started playing WoW during tbc in private servers and I was noob - I did not do professions until later in MoP), when I tried vanilla WoW in 2019 I stopped playing modern WoW mainly because of economy, not because of gearing or any other stuff players complained.

novercalis

I am in the anti consumable. I get the aspect of crafter/profession/alchemy wanting it.
But to me, consumable is a crotch for weak dungeon design. If ppl require consumbles to raid, to overcome an obstacle, then that is a bad design.
If people needs consumables to defeat raid bosses, then that is a bad design.

I want the bosses, dungeons to be challenging AF and not having consumables making things easier.
Every group, every approach to a fight should be dynamic and players needs to learn and understand the mechanics of classes, the str n weakness of the classes and bosses and figure it out how to overcome challenges w/o the usage of consumables.

contradiction time - since I made a post tlaking about not having them, I will concede since majority of the voices wanted it.

in terms of buffs. I get it, we love it. I do believe buffs should come from classes. Thus making classes important and allowing ALL classes be viable in raids. Instead of - let's take example of WoW

People didnt want to take a shadow priest, cause he was useless outside of raid and during raid, only 1 shadow priest spot is open, IF AT ALL, depending on how many warlocks signed up, a Spriest gave a huge buff dps to locks.

In due time, META will happen, and of the 64 classes, Like Archeage - there are gonna be Shit classes that are gonna get denied, OUTRIGHT DENIED. But if every class has a unique buff to them, in terms of building a 8 man or raid team, now we can see and open up the door to more classes.

So with that said, consumable buffs. Yes it is nice. But it needs to be severely limited, expensive AF, time consuming and something that is gated by gatherer/crafters. Let them do the annoying grind.

In my head this is how I'd like to see an mmo.

HP / Mana Pots are in the game, with a cooldown of 10 minutes. They should be used as a "BREAK GLASS INCASE OF EMERGENCY". They should be profitable for crafters.

FOOD / WATER Type 1 - Mandatory. Without Food, you do not get a passive HP5 regen. Same Goes for Water, passive MP5 regen. These food are auto consume in your inventory, with a 5-15 min auto cooldown consumption. Higher tier food/drink gets consumed less.

FOOD Type 2 - Special Food that is separated from HP5 passive, gives a "global Buff" of some sort. Goes away upon Death, Last for 30min to 2 hr. Expensive, beneficial for crafters.

Flask - Gives a "Global Buff" Only 1 can be active.

When I say "Global buff" there should many ways one can attain "Global Buff". Via Food, Flask, Event, Boss, Quest, etc.
BUT your only allowed to have 1 or 2 Global Buffs. Preferably 1 - Choices Matters.

Do you want to have that expensive food buff or that flask buff. Maybe each type is class dependent meta wise. Make each type of "global buff" unique that is beneficial for 64 classes. Spread the love, spread the economy and usage. Cause if you make a broad sweep type of buff, then most players will ignore all the other flasks/food/etc to 1 single global buff as the "meta buff". But if it's balanced around class specific DPS as example. Fire Buff for Fire Mages, Ice buff for Ice mages, Rejuv buff for shaman, Regen buff for Druids, Divine Buff for Clerics - while the last 3 does the same effect, it is tied to a class, instead of "healers".

VekoKrava

I really dont understand why is it fun to farm PvE bosses daily on repetitive basis and its not fun to "play game within game" and do professions. I would understand if players wanted to just PvP because you are not playing versus computer, but even then having profession work should be fun, just so that they dont roam open world just searching for players...

bloodprophet

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Can you explain why it was not good?

I admit I am comparing it to gw2 or New World economy.

This is the reason for people not understanding what your saying.
Lack of perspective. Your comparing as so so game to two shity games.

bloodprophet

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

See, in vanilla wow economy did not collapse once, why? because devs set prices for items via vendors, well not every item but some mandatory like bags, so we had an idea of how much something would cost. Boring way of doing it, but limiting it is better then giving players full power and risking whole economy which happened in NW basically...

That is like if you were dictator that is all up for compassion and peace and stability and if you were very wise and knowledgeable, would you risk everything or make stability in your country?

Why would you buy the crappy bags from a vendor when you can get the good ones from the auction house? I have never heard of the devs altering prices on the AH.

Centrally planned economy's usually collapse and cause massive waste , human suffering and corruption.

Noaani

novercalis wrote: »

I am in the anti consumable. I get the aspect of crafter/profession/alchemy wanting it.
But to me, consumable is a crotch for weak dungeon design. If ppl require consumbles to raid, to overcome an obstacle, then that is a bad design.
If people needs consumables to defeat raid bosses, then that is a bad design.

I want the bosses, dungeons to be challenging AF and not having consumables making things easier.

I dont quite get this.

You dont want consumables to be required for content, but you also dont want consumables to not be required for the content, but to be another level over top that players have access to.

To me, consumables are just abilities that all classes have,they just happen to require "ammo" to use.

Based on that, I would consider it bad game design if there wasnt at least some content that required their use.

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