Itemization, watch this video devs please.

This might be stupid for some, but it made some items so memorable even today after people tried many MMOs they remember some of these items and memories they had.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMUz6uStM_8

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Rhorden

Noaani wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I understand, its fine... you don't like WoW, but not a single reason I got as why you don't like wow, like precise reasons.

WoW's combat and itemization have always been sub par compared to its contemporaries.

It was absolutely viable on some classes in vanilla WoW to hit max output using only three abilities. To many players, this is unacceptable.

Itemization in WoW was basically never really up to the player. You were kind of just handed the appropriate gear for your class as you leveled, and from dungeons and raids at the level cap. There was literally no need to ever actually consider what your class needs in terms.of gear.

The quests in WoW were ok, but by no means the most engaging of it's time - nor was it close to the game with the most quests. EQ2, released just weeks before WoW, had exponentially more quests at launch than WoW had, with the bulk of quests being of about the same quality. However, that game also had major quests throughout the game that were a step above any quests WoW has ever added to the game.

The next major thing about WoW that I specifically did not like, although it kind of encompasses much of the above, is that it treats its players as if they are stupid. Everything about the game comes across as assuming players dont know how to play an RPG at all. This makes some sense when you consider that Warcraft 3 was created the way it was (specifically its heros) in order to give Warcraft players exposure to that kind of thing, and Blizzard simply assumed WoW would be full of players from Warcraft, and had to find a way to transition them in to a new genre.

There are other things about the game I didn't like, but they all consist of comparisons to the games contemporaries, and if you had no exposure to other MMO's of the time, you are unlikely to understand.

Back in 2017 and 2018, intrepid were saying they wanted to "make MMO's great again". To many people, this didnt mean "bring things back to vanilla WoW", it meant "let's try and get rid of WoW's influence on the MMO genre".

This sounds like you are very much describing the newer, shittier version of WoW. I did notice some things you said and it really made me question in what era you started playing wow.

"Itemization in WoW was basically never really up to the player. You were kind of just handed the appropriate gear for your class as you leveled, and from dungeons and raids at the level cap. There was literally no need to ever actually consider what your class needs in terms.of gear."
You can't be serious. I remember playing a lot and I remember getting a virtual shit ton of loot that had nothing to do with my class. If you played old WoW I don't understand how you could make that statement. There were quests that constantly gave out loot where you had to pick which piece you wanted and plenty of times none of the loot was helpful to your class or you might have to know how to gear your class so you got the right item. Same with dungeons. It was up to the player to know what they needed, find out where it dropped and then farm for it until they got it. Being handed the proper gear is something that is done by the newer versions of WoW and many of its competitors. Were you a cloth wearer and assumed all cloth was meant for you?

"The next major thing about WoW that I specifically did not like, although it kind of encompasses much of the above, is that it treats its players as if they are stupid."
Well they were right on that account.

"Back in 2017 and 2018, intrepid were saying they wanted to "make MMO's great again". To many people, this didnt mean "bring things back to vanilla WoW", it meant "let's try and get rid of WoW's influence on the MMO genre"
According to whom? I don't remember ever hearing or seeing anything said by IS that they wanted to steer clear of everything WoW. So that just your personal assumption. As far as making MMOs great again it would behoove them take take notes from a game that reached the massive popularity size that WoW did. They must have been doing something right.
WoW got a lot of things right. WoW also got a lot of things wrong. As time went on they leaned much more into the wrong, just like every other game. If are going to discount WoW and everything that WoW is just because you didn't like it, then you are not interested in making the best version of AoC. You are interested in making a version that is biased and strictly how you want it without regards to what would actually be best for the game.

Noaani

Rhorden wrote: »

"Back in 2017 and 2018, intrepid were saying they wanted to "make MMO's great again". To many people, this didnt mean "bring things back to vanilla WoW", it meant "let's try and get rid of WoW's influence on the MMO genre"
According to whom? I don't remember ever hearing or seeing anything said by IS that they wanted to steer clear of everything WoW.

I'm not concerned if you believe me or not, but feel free to go back through old livestreams. Every time WoW is bought up, they kind of laugh and steer the conversation in the other direction. The only real exception to this is when they said they would love to compete with WoW in terms of raiding.

Another thing you could look at is their hiring practices. They havent announced a single ex-Wife hire, despite the fact there are more ex-WoW developers than there are for any other MMO ever made.

The other thing you could do is look at the gamea they actually state as influences on Ashes. WoW isnt among them, it isnt even in the conversation. When asked what Intrepid has taken from WoW, I do recall Steven badicalky saying "nothing". Feel free tonjust ask that same question again if you like.

As to all other points you are making, I am comparing WoW in 2004/2005 to other games around at that time.

You said that you recall being offered quest rewards in early WoW that had nothing to do with your class, and you somehow think this is proof of needing to think about gear for your class. The game always handed out appropriate gear, and there was never a need to replace it until you got to the next class specific set of gear the game was handing out to you. Everything else was able to be considered vendor fodder.

Compare this to a game like SWG (a contemporary of this period of WoW), where you are literally deciding what stats to have on your player crafted gear.

But sure, occasionally being given vendor fodder is blatant proof of good itemization on WoW, and of players needing to think what they are doing.

Quite honestly, your post here comes across as being from someone that never played any early WoW contemporaries. All of my points made were in relation to other games, not in relation to WoW in a vacuum.

VekoKrava

Another reason why I think vanilla WoW was superior to any MMO I played is because of RPG itemization. RPG means realism in so many arguments, simply meaning if you had Mace that has proc to stun for 3sec on basic attack or you had to choose between sword that strikes 2 times (proc on basic attack) or take Axe that bleeds enemy for 800 DMG, you had decisions how will you use it, do you want hammer that maybe fcks up your DR diminishing return of your stun (meaning if you stun, next stun within 20sec will stun target for half the time, every time this happens until target is immune - basically 2-3 times can happen before target going immune) or will you take sword - which is good vs cloth because of instant dmg, or will you take bleed vs plate armor classes because bleeds go through armor / not get impacted by dmg reduction from plate armor.

Basically this, on top of realism, swords double strike because they are good weapons to combo attacks and are fast weapons, or axes because of big chunk they bleed target, or hammers that can stun target (should be obvious why they can stun), on top of realism, they give so many opportunities how to build your character, sometimes item 55lvl can be stronger then item 60lvl in some situations, all these things add up. Vanilla had very good itemization, I think this guy on video explained it well, but did not bring the RPG behind itemization - realism.

Newer wow and every expansion after vanilla (original game) was going into another direction, more competitive one, we saw that with some changes that includes resist/miss chance and other things like newer spells (for example rogues getting shadow-step to gap close) or something similar. Basically what happened in wotlk when activision took over is that they wanted to make game competitive while lead combat designer wanted to make RPG in combat - meaning that he would create unique spells for each race combined with class from warcraft 3 fantasy, so every warrior would have different spells for each race. This was his idea and he stood strong against competitive - balancing game design, and guess what? he got fired... He did not work on lead designer after that and he quit around cataclysm or Mist of pandaria. Watch him talk about vanilla WoW on youtube, I think he has some of the best argument why vanilla was superior to any other WoW expansion. His name is Kevin Jordan...

Ace1234

Im not familiar enough with that system to know how good it is- but it would be great if the itemization in AOC has some of those elements talked about in the video.
There should definitely be a lot of consideration into how each item fits into your overall build, and there should be good build diversity where "it depends" what is the best, depending on the situation, and enemy matchup. I also don't want things to be so OP that player combat skill becomes way less relevant. Good builds and higher level gear should give you an advantage but it shouldn't make player skill obselete, at least to a reasonable degree (such as maybe allowing the highest level stuff to completely overpower the lowest level stuff).

VekoKrava

Ace1234 wrote: »

Im not familiar enough with that system to know how good it is- but it would be great if the itemization in AOC has some of those elements talked about in the video.
There should definitely be a lot of consideration into how each item fits into your overall build, and there should be good build diversity where "it depends" what is the best, depending on the situation, and enemy matchup. I also don't want things to be so OP that player combat skill becomes way less relevant. Good builds and higher level gear should give you an advantage but it shouldn't make player skill obselete, at least to a reasonable degree (such as maybe allowing the highest level stuff to completely overpower the lowest level stuff).

Key to building memorable items is to make some items even if they are obtained in lower levels to be stronger depending on situation.

If you design items that are stronger with each level then it is not vanilla wow style which leans to sandbox gearing and scaling.

For example level 19 boots would give 15 agility and 3 stamina while level 35 boots would give 9 agility, 12 stamina and 5 spirit.

Overall these boots from 35 level are much safer to wear in open world, but if you are in dungeon I would rather take more damage then survival...

Falleni

I played druid during vanilla and classic and problem with itemization was overwhelming ammount of items you had to carry. In the end you would use items that were best for content you were doing at the time. Some people carried spirit set to quick swap after combat just to regen faster. I personally find item swapping horrible apart from role change or occasional piece swapping that is better for situation like trinkets or resist gear.

Also as Steven mentioned in one of the streams best items are made by crafters so it all boils down how can crafters affect the items.

Personally I'd like to see some ammount of proccing items but not too many to make combat full on rng.

VekoKrava

I liked inconvenience in vanilla, I found it very worthy of both improving my sense of RPG taste and giving me ''patience'' with game systems, it also immersed me with this virtual world this is why I said it improved my taste of RPG games.

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