Splinter Topic: Is 20-30 Active Skills Enough?

A convergence of multiple factors in understanding of Ashes inspiration (thank you @JamesSunderland, for the answer in the topic that I am 'splintering' this from) has made me wonder if this is enough for players to feel like they are playing a proper MMO.

Steven has said that they will probably have about 30-45 possible skills in total, and at least two Hotbars. I will assume that in a game of ArcheAge's speed, you needed to be able to hit any of these quite quickly with mechanical skill, whereas L2 might be less like this.

Action or Action-y MMOs can feel like they have less of these skills due to many of them being tied to things that are only needed in Action-y games, but in many ways, they do not. Slower Tab Targety games can have lots more, but you often don't use them all, and Steven has also said that they want to avoid that ability bloat of 'stuff you just level out of using and never touch again but is still in your ability list'.

Then there's things like the control schema that limits things. The 12-20-button MMO mouse + Keyboard setup works fine for some, and for others its cumbersome, controllers work equivalently for those used to them, and are equally if not more cumbersome to others.

But in both cases, keybind overlap limits the mechanically less skilled, so I can see why they would go lower on this.

Unfortunately the CURRENT direction seems to imply that Ashes is fast. And has two hotbars. And it's made me wonder if, when people complain or criticize the concept of an MMO that is also built to work on console, for example, which is also likely to have such limitations unless it's slower...

Which aspect of it are they complaining about? I can only perceive the difference between console and PC MMOs to be 'console is supposed to be played on Controller', but I feel like I'm missing something maybe, because once a game adds a reticle (or just uses FFXI's 'target entity closest to center of screen if untargeted' default) I no longer know what the difference is, due to my own bias in experiences, given below:

Elite Dangerous is basically unchanged for controller play, one of the only games where I actually nearly run out of possible controller keybinds due to the movement mechanics
Final Fantasy XI (Playstation 2 on release, for those who don't know) is slow enough that they've just used the trigger buttons as 'Macro/Hotbar modifiers' for 20 years and just kept increasing the Macros you got instead. Basically 'make your own hotbars'.
BDO doesn't use all its sane keybinds, far less 'possible' ones, and like most modern action games has a separate 'Ring Menu' system for stuff that you wouldn't need to activate often.
Neverwinter uses the standard schema and then goes even further than that, so I actually have a better time with it than BDO.

Note that this isn't really a question about Controllers, vs Multi-button mouse, vs whatever else, so I'll try to dial it down:

I can see how Lineage doesn't work because Click-to-Move. What I'm missing is the information on what makes things like Neverwinter, ESO, etc, lower in complexity than Ashes is intended to be, or if it is the opposite and people are really concerned that Ashes will not live up to a standard of play they are used to because it has this lower number of active abilities.

And as usual, 'bonus' poke for Intrepid, y'all got Neverwinter combat people, right? Can I get the usual schema if we're only getting the 'standard' ability amounts? Much love.

EDIT: To clarify, when I say 'Neverwinter goes further than that' I mean on trimming down and simplifying relative to BDO or Ashes, not that they utilize more/better keybinds, if anything they're on the 'oversimplified' part of the spectrum.

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Percimes

There are many challenges when it comes to the number of skills, key binding, class role and mobility requirement.

For class/role with many buffs that are to be cast out of combat, having situational ones isn't really a problem since they're part of the preparation process. If they are to be cast during combat as a reaction to something it becomes much more of a challenge.

A melee dps with most skills instant cast but requiring to always be moving plays differently than a range dps who has to stay stationary to cast spells. That's reflected in how you bind your skills: one should have them near WASD, the other can put them from 1 to = and be fine.

The biggest challenge I've had with key binding was for my WoW shaman. I was a melee dps, as far as spec goes, but I still had buffs, heals, offensive spells and a ton of totems (some buff, some reactive protection, some acting as turrets, ...) to juggle with. Adding consumables, mount and other odd activable items...

As far as key binding went... I used 1-5, q, e, r, t, f, g, z, x, c and b for my important instant/reactive skills. 6 to = for the ones that needed me to stay immobile for casting. The two side buttons of my mouse were macro'd for 'shift' and 'l-ctrl', basically tripling the available keys. So more or less 45 skills bound near the WASP and a 20ish more if I didn't need to move. Never used them all, some thing were so rarely used or never in a hurry that I clicked on them. Alternatively, I might have had 'l-alt' bound on the mouse and use my pinky to press either shift or l-ctrl.

George_Black

Most mmos rely on passive stat trees for playstyle building, invisible combat of you will, with tiny hotbars of around 10 abilities or even worse in esos case, 6+6.

The theory is that by allocating points on passive, invisible stats, you can cover your classes weaknesses, pile on it's strengths, making you able to respond to any time of enemy (brawler, nuker, ganger, smallscale, largescale). Fact remains that due to the small hotbar, your visible playstyle remains the same. Your skills look the same.

I am for large hotbars that can slot 70-80% of a classes active skills, with individual cooldowns.
That way you have visible tools with which you respond to a variety type of enemies.

If your enemy a slippery ganger? You got Fell Swoop, which deals dmg and stuns, snd other slotted abilities that prevent the ganger from slipping away.

If your enemy is a nuker you got Rushing Blow, which is a gap closer and deals dmg. Use a "slow" and then use your hard hitting abilities to end the fight quickly

If your enemy is a sturdy, fairly strong brawler, stick to your strong hitting abilities as well as your defensive abilities.

If your enemy is a tank make sure to apply your dots while you also apply strong dmg and manage your mp/hp.

Many more types of enemies. Summoners, aoe, situational abilities like knocking ppl off high ground, aoe abilities for some melee classes abilities etc etc etc. We need large hotbars.

Large hotbars are needed so that player can slot a fair bit of their active skills collection, which all have individual cooldown and mp cost, for VISIBLE gameplay.

Small horbars make for repetitive rotations, no strategy.

BlackBrony

30 skills? Where is the space on my screen for the actual game?
30 skills and then I use 10. I'd rather have 10 and be always using them, that having that 1 skill I use every 10 years.
Also, I'm against buffs. They should all be auras, not buffs. Otherwise if they're too good you have people asking for tthem. Or selling them

JamesSunderland

@Azherae you're welcome

Lineage 2 starts being very slow(~1,5+ sec skill casts) with very few skills and reachs end game being hella fast(~0.4 sec skill casts) with alot of skills, some classes requires less skills(~6-10) and others more skills(~20-25).

I Believe 16-20-24 skills to be excelent numbers, it even works matematically for the 75% action or tab skill division limits, i don't think over 24 is necessary.

I believe many players correlate the MMOs "Also designed for console" with fewer skills per classes and possible oversimplification of combat systems(also related to the fewer number of skills) ESO and Neverwinter are possible culprits for that notion, BDO breaks away from the oversimplified notion with way more skills/combos than ESO and Neverwinter, but it wasn't originaly designed for console even tho it kinda seems to work very well on them due to it's combat nature.

Nova_terra

I think anything less than 15~ total tends to feel very bland even if you are using them all the time (short CDs) as your rotation ends up being very simple and repetitive. But I think with consumables and additional items being used somewhere around roughly 30-50~ seems slim enough that you can find nuance while not being a logistic nightmare. I feel that once you start pushing upward of 50~ you start to run into severe bloat or at least in my opinion poor game design depending on the game.

Obviously this entire conversation is a large preference based argument as people look for different things in an MMO but when it comes to controller vs. KBM it's seriously just what you have spent more time on. I know some of my friends will never use KBM even though I think it is at least a more "intuitive system" where a lot of games don't feel like they cater to controller and it feels more like an afterthought unless we are talking about FPS then it's kind of a toss up. @Azherae However, I know you will disagree as someone who sounds like you come from controller for the last 15 years so it's all subjective however as I am a KBM warrior of 20+ years so it will always come naturally to me at this point.

I can definitely say that if I am struggling to fill out two hotbars of abilities this will definitely feel hollow (again preference). I usually end up sitting at 3 solid hotbars of "high use" bars and then 1-2 of low use in the games I have touched.

Azherae

Nova_terra wrote: »

I think anything less than 15~ total tends to feel very bland even if you are using them all the time (short CDs) as your rotation ends up being very simple and repetitive. But I think with consumables and additional items being used somewhere around roughly 30-50~ seems slim enough that you can find nuance while not being a logistic nightmare. I feel that once you start pushing upward of 50~ you start to run into severe bloat or at least in my opinion poor game design depending on the game.

Obviously this entire conversation is a large preference based argument as people look for different things in an MMO but when it comes to controller vs. KBM it's seriously just what you have spent more time on. I know some of my friends will never use KBM even though I think it is at least a more "intuitive system" where a lot of games don't feel like they cater to controller and it feels more like an afterthought unless we are talking about FPS then it's kind of a toss up. @Azherae However, I know you will disagree as someone who sounds like you come from controller for the last 15 years so it's all subjective however as I am a KBM warrior of 20+ years so it will always come naturally to me at this point.

I can definitely say that if I am struggling to fill out two hotbars of abilities this will definitely feel hollow (again preference). I usually end up sitting at 3 solid hotbars of "high use" bars and then 1-2 of low use in the games I have touched.

I have no opinion on this because, again, this isn't about KBM vs controller to me at all.

It depends on the game, but I do think it depends somewhat by genre.

If anything, I think that people exaggerate the difference/effect of it until you have over 50 skills to worry about.

But as example, I would NEVER try to play Lineage with a Controller, even 'half and half' with the controller. Click to move isn't worth it in that situation. Even if it didn't have click-to-move, I have learned from others that click-targeting is far superior in that game.

I am actually also better at FFXI with keyboard (but the game can be played ENTIRELY without mouse, if you're determined) or half-and-half, but the difference is so negligible under most circumstances (because I can customize my own Macros/hotbar) that I just use whatever's convenient.

I have played other games that are 'like FFXI but faster and more mobile' and I could play those on KBM as well but would not LIKE it, so I don't. That's what I wish for everyone. I don't know what I'll do in Ashes yet. I used both, I will practice both.

But I can see how 'this game is mobile and has 40 skills' reaches 'KBM' territory for ANYONE who hasn't been using a controller for a long time. KBM is always more versatile OR easier at around that point, particularly for very tactical or click-to-move games. Basically if you care more about the position of your reticle than how quickly you can DO the ability or how 'physically intuitive it feels', I'm sure KBM is better.

But Ashes does not have 40 skills, and having researched it more, ArcheAge uses a similar 'press this to change hotbar entirely' method as FFXI does, which means I could in fact map it to Controller easily. So back to 'preference based argument' now that I've hopefully addressed that...

It sounds like 20-30 is actually moreso 'a sweet spot' for you. Is that correct? At that point, it is not a question of Controller vs KBM at all, to me, so there would be no concerns there honestly EVEN if reticle positioning was important (you have to reach 40 skills before there's overlap between Ring Menu requirements and reticle movement even in a SoftLock-Tab game)

Mastru

I very much dislike games like wow with massive amounts of abilities and filled hotbars. I think 20 active abilities on your hotbars is more than enough.

Azherae

Hartassen wrote: »

I very much dislike games like wow with massive amounts of abilities and filled hotbars. I think 20 active abilities on your hotbars is more than enough.

Grati pur data.

JamesSunderland wrote: »

BDO breaks away from the oversimplified notion with way more skills/combos than ESO and Neverwinter, but it wasn't originaly designed for console even tho it kinda seems to work very well on them due to it's combat nature.

Addressing this briefly now that we're probably far enough into the thread that most people won't be bothering to read these bits.

BDO works on Console because 'most things do', but this requires an understanding of 'how controller players who play these games expect to experience things'.

I'll try not to go into too much detail... (as if that ever actually happens).

Action Games have convergently evolved toward the following:

Primary Attack, Secondary Attack, Special Attack, Block, Jump/roll (Jump buttons suck btw), Dodge/quickdash (often sprints if the game has a Combat on/off toggle), Modifier button A, Modifier button B, Targeting/interaction button(extra attack option when the game has a Combat on/off toggle).

Let's work ONLY with this for now:
P, Se, Sp, BL, R, QD, MA, MB, T.

Since none of those overlap with WASD directly, I can use the 'keyboard movement commands' for the KBM familiar players, right?

Depending on the game you can't combine WASD with P for DIFFERENT attacks/abilities, but imagine a game where you can.

Rogue's S+P might do any number of things since Rogue's Neutral P probably just slashed in front of them.
Mage's S+P might do a Fire Wave if their Neutral P just did a launched Fireball. It's hard to explain EXACTLY why, but I believe that for many controller players, 'seeing a standing neutral P throw a fireball, and then S+P do a Fire Wave' in a game where you couldn't move while doing the Fireball, would be intuitive enough after the first time even if they didn't expect it. This is what BDO and games like it rely on. Most semi-experienced controller players do not 'accidentally do Fire Wave when they meant to just do Fireball'.

So, in the interest of trying to keep this short, there are about 23 'intuitive after the first time' inputs of this type if you start from the 9 'buttons' I mention (technically 8 because most games don't have jump AND dodge and this lets them have both MA and MB, but since I brought up BDO, I am obligated to mention it since they have both).

That game DOES have some control flaws and unintuitive/annoying parts when put on controller because it is a PC game, but it's really tiny things like 'still having some classes with no QD button who need to use doubletaps of WASD which is harder on Analog stick'. A thing that, again, only happens because they 'want to keep the Jump Button active during combat mode' (I actually don't know why this is because it doesn't help you dodge in BDO, it takes long to actually DO, and there are better ways to solve mantling and climbing, plus, you can do what I did in Ashes and just make MA+QD jump instead, since Jumping is usually deliberate anyway)

The only purpose of this post is to clarify what the limits of Controller schema are in such design spaces so that it can be factored into any perceptions of 'numbers of skills'. If anything, I am indirectly requesting ideas of 'abilities that you wouldn't think have a natural keybind', or technically 'abilities that you needed a fourth hotbar for in other games'.

I am NOT trying to suggest in any way that games should not have hotbars, nor that they should require people to memorize 16-30 Keybinds just to play the game, moreso 'BDO works on console because Controller players already have this mental structure, but most other games also work for the same reason'.

Nova_terra

Azherae wrote: »

Nova_terra wrote: »

I think anything less than 15~ total tends to feel very bland even if you are using them all the time (short CDs) as your rotation ends up being very simple and repetitive. But I think with consumables and additional items being used somewhere around roughly 30-50~ seems slim enough that you can find nuance while not being a logistic nightmare. I feel that once you start pushing upward of 50~ you start to run into severe bloat or at least in my opinion poor game design depending on the game.

Obviously this entire conversation is a large preference based argument as people look for different things in an MMO but when it comes to controller vs. KBM it's seriously just what you have spent more time on. I know some of my friends will never use KBM even though I think it is at least a more "intuitive system" where a lot of games don't feel like they cater to controller and it feels more like an afterthought unless we are talking about FPS then it's kind of a toss up. @Azherae However, I know you will disagree as someone who sounds like you come from controller for the last 15 years so it's all subjective however as I am a KBM warrior of 20+ years so it will always come naturally to me at this point.

I can definitely say that if I am struggling to fill out two hotbars of abilities this will definitely feel hollow (again preference). I usually end up sitting at 3 solid hotbars of "high use" bars and then 1-2 of low use in the games I have touched.

I have no opinion on this because, again, this isn't about KBM vs controller to me at all.

It depends on the game, but I do think it depends somewhat by genre.

If anything, I think that people exaggerate the difference/effect of it until you have over 50 skills to worry about.

But as example, I would NEVER try to play Lineage with a Controller, even 'half and half' with the controller. Click to move isn't worth it in that situation. Even if it didn't have click-to-move, I have learned from others that click-targeting is far superior in that game.

I am actually also better at FFXI with keyboard (but the game can be played ENTIRELY without mouse, if you're determined) or half-and-half, but the difference is so negligible under most circumstances (because I can customize my own Macros/hotbar) that I just use whatever's convenient.

I have played other games that are 'like FFXI but faster and more mobile' and I could play those on KBM as well but would not LIKE it, so I don't. That's what I wish for everyone. I don't know what I'll do in Ashes yet. I used both, I will practice both.

But I can see how 'this game is mobile and has 40 skills' reaches 'KBM' territory for ANYONE who hasn't been using a controller for a long time. KBM is always more versatile OR easier at around that point, particularly for very tactical or click-to-move games. Basically if you care more about the position of your reticle than how quickly you can DO the ability or how 'physically intuitive it feels', I'm sure KBM is better.

But Ashes does not have 40 skills, and having researched it more, ArcheAge uses a similar 'press this to change hotbar entirely' method as FFXI does, which means I could in fact map it to Controller easily. So back to 'preference based argument' now that I've hopefully addressed that...

It sounds like 20-30 is actually moreso 'a sweet spot' for you. Is that correct? At that point, it is not a question of Controller vs KBM at all, to me, so there would be no concerns there honestly EVEN if reticle positioning was important (you have to reach 40 skills before there's overlap between Ring Menu requirements and reticle movement even in a SoftLock-Tab game)

I'd say so. 20-40 active skills is where I am most happy because while I definitely appreciate your love for FFXI and the (I believe you said 100+ in this thread) large amount of skills. I find that we are probably on moderately different sides of the scale on this because while 100+ skills is a lot to juggle, FFXI looks to me like an algorithm game. all the videos shown in all the threads I have seen is mostly everyone standing at X range and going through their skills which is it's own kind of difficult and logic puzzle fun but it just turns into parsing with an infinite amount of if(x) statements. I am happy sitting at 20-40 because to me 40 is the upper end of meaningful skills when applying it to PvP or mechanics that are movement/reactive based. I am at my root a PvP player and there is fun/difficulty in the non-algorithmic nature of PvP (again, I don't want to derail into a PvE or difficulty or "99% of players will respond with Y when presented with X" it's just more a scaling issue for me where if there are more than 20 active skills (used in sub 20 seconds) it's just an overload and trending toward Starcraft and in that case.. I'll just play Starcraft.

Azherae

Nova_terra wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Nova_terra wrote: »

I think anything less than 15~ total tends to feel very bland even if you are using them all the time (short CDs) as your rotation ends up being very simple and repetitive. But I think with consumables and additional items being used somewhere around roughly 30-50~ seems slim enough that you can find nuance while not being a logistic nightmare. I feel that once you start pushing upward of 50~ you start to run into severe bloat or at least in my opinion poor game design depending on the game.

Obviously this entire conversation is a large preference based argument as people look for different things in an MMO but when it comes to controller vs. KBM it's seriously just what you have spent more time on. I know some of my friends will never use KBM even though I think it is at least a more "intuitive system" where a lot of games don't feel like they cater to controller and it feels more like an afterthought unless we are talking about FPS then it's kind of a toss up. @Azherae However, I know you will disagree as someone who sounds like you come from controller for the last 15 years so it's all subjective however as I am a KBM warrior of 20+ years so it will always come naturally to me at this point.

I can definitely say that if I am struggling to fill out two hotbars of abilities this will definitely feel hollow (again preference). I usually end up sitting at 3 solid hotbars of "high use" bars and then 1-2 of low use in the games I have touched.

I have no opinion on this because, again, this isn't about KBM vs controller to me at all.

It depends on the game, but I do think it depends somewhat by genre.

If anything, I think that people exaggerate the difference/effect of it until you have over 50 skills to worry about.

But as example, I would NEVER try to play Lineage with a Controller, even 'half and half' with the controller. Click to move isn't worth it in that situation. Even if it didn't have click-to-move, I have learned from others that click-targeting is far superior in that game.

I am actually also better at FFXI with keyboard (but the game can be played ENTIRELY without mouse, if you're determined) or half-and-half, but the difference is so negligible under most circumstances (because I can customize my own Macros/hotbar) that I just use whatever's convenient.

I have played other games that are 'like FFXI but faster and more mobile' and I could play those on KBM as well but would not LIKE it, so I don't. That's what I wish for everyone. I don't know what I'll do in Ashes yet. I used both, I will practice both.

But I can see how 'this game is mobile and has 40 skills' reaches 'KBM' territory for ANYONE who hasn't been using a controller for a long time. KBM is always more versatile OR easier at around that point, particularly for very tactical or click-to-move games. Basically if you care more about the position of your reticle than how quickly you can DO the ability or how 'physically intuitive it feels', I'm sure KBM is better.

But Ashes does not have 40 skills, and having researched it more, ArcheAge uses a similar 'press this to change hotbar entirely' method as FFXI does, which means I could in fact map it to Controller easily. So back to 'preference based argument' now that I've hopefully addressed that...

It sounds like 20-30 is actually moreso 'a sweet spot' for you. Is that correct? At that point, it is not a question of Controller vs KBM at all, to me, so there would be no concerns there honestly EVEN if reticle positioning was important (you have to reach 40 skills before there's overlap between Ring Menu requirements and reticle movement even in a SoftLock-Tab game)

I'd say so. 20-40 active skills is where I am most happy because while I definitely appreciate your love for FFXI and the (I believe you said 100+ in this thread) large amount of skills. I find that we are probably on moderately different sides of the scale on this because while 100+ skills is a lot to juggle, FFXI looks to me like an algorithm game. all the videos shown in all the threads I have seen is mostly everyone standing at X range and going through their skills which is it's own kind of difficult and logic puzzle fun but it just turns into parsing with an infinite amount of if(x) statements. I am happy sitting at 20-40 because to me 40 is the upper end of meaningful skills when applying it to PvP or mechanics that are movement/reactive based. I am at my root a PvP player and there is fun/difficulty in the non-algorithmic nature of PvP (again, I don't want to derail into a PvE or difficulty or "99% of players will respond with Y when presented with X" it's just more a scaling issue for me where if there are more than 20 active skills (used in sub 20 seconds) it's just an overload and trending toward Starcraft and in that case.. I'll just play Starcraft.

I agree completely.

I love FFXI but it has a lot of things it could do better and a lot of strain points for most players, many of which are completely unnecessary.

I would never want them to rebuild it the same way it is now, it was a product of its time, and I am happy with the number Ashes has.

So to quickly reiterate my initial confusion:

Some people were SORTA acting like console dumbs down MMOs, even Action ones (especially Action ones?)
I come from a game with 100 abilities that I used to play on Console so I didn't know what they meant so I asked about the ability number and James helped educate me
I believe that 40 skills or less is possible on Console because Controllers can handle 40 skills
I wanted to understand what 'dumbing down' people were referring to, and to figure out if those people were also talking about games with 70+ skills that also had quick difficult positioning (ArcheAge for example has relatively mechanical combat)

I genuinely thank you for your answers, therefore. Seems that WE all, at least, can hope that TL, AA2, and ESPECIALLY Ashes, just keep going the way they are going, and I can PROBABLY ignore the 'console dumbs down MMOs!' people for now. They could easily be right, after all, but their perspectives don't seem to be BASED on anything that anyone has noted so far.

WHIT3ROS3

I think it all comes down to the secondary archetype and how skills are augmented. 35 skills per class, is more than enough to be getting on with at this point in development. More skills and abilities can always be added in the future but I just want to see one full class, its abilities and how the 8 secondary archetypes affect the effects. At that point, I think it will become a lot more clear if there needs to be more abilities and/or more differentiation between secondary archetypes and augmentations.

Azherae

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

I think it all comes down to the secondary archetype and how skills are augmented. 35 skills per class, is more than enough to be getting on with at this point in development. More skills and abilities can always be added in the future but I just want to see one full class, its abilities and how the 8 secondary archetypes affect the effects. At that point, I think it will become a lot more clear if there needs to be more abilities and/or more differentiation between secondary archetypes and augmentations.

This is also extremely important, yes.

I personally shouldn't bring it up because I have way too many opinions/expectations/speculations and it creeps into my already-extensive ramblings, but it's definitely true that if the customizations/augments are 'weak', some people might not feel like 20-40 skills is enough just because they won't feel unique enough in groups.

Less skills also makes it more 'required' to take meta versions of some imo because it means you can't build as strong an 'internal synergy' for your own build/gear.

Nerror

I hope Intrepid focuses on skill synergies in groups. It doesn't have to be exactly like GW2 or LOTRO, but some type of system where 2 or 3 different skills fired off roughly at the same time under the right conditions provides an effect greater than the sum of its parts. Reward groups that practice together.

If they can pull that off, I think fewer skills are both necessary and needed. I am honestly fine with just 10 active skills if we can customize with augments, passive bonuses and tweaks and we get synergies with other skills from other players. I would much rather have that than 30 active skills, where some of them are super niche and situational, and perhaps just derivatives of other very similar skills, and without the synergies.

I think this would incentivize group play even more, instead of every player being a swiss army knife by themselves.

Iskiab

Lots of skills, over maybe 10, is the result of a game being out for a while and abilities getting bloated. It shouldn't be the goal, there's nothing good about having more skills. Personally I find it really annoying because it adds zero to gameplay.

Azherae

Iskiab wrote: »

Lots of skills, over maybe 10, is the result of a game being out for a while and abilities getting bloated. It shouldn't be the goal, there's nothing good about having more skills. Personally I find it really annoying because it adds zero to gameplay.

You did mean to type '10' here, right?

Can you give any examples of games where 'after about 10 skills the rest just feel like bloat'?

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

You did mean to type '10' here, right?

Can you give any examples of games where 'after about 10 skills the rest just feel like bloat'?

I assumed they meant 10 active ones, so smth like NW.

Jhoren

I would be completely fine with 10-15 active skills. 20-30 including passive skills is fine, but I think 20-30 active skills is too many. I'd much rather they focus on making each skill archetypical and special to that class, with passives and augments allowing players to change them to fit their playstyle.

Lord_Marshal

I am going with too many. 10-15 active skills is fine. You can more that are toggles.

In games with 20-30 skills I arrange them and have my 10 skills that I use in rotation and the rest get fitted on my bars and mostly forgotten.

Nova_terra

Azherae wrote: »

Nova_terra wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Nova_terra wrote: »

I think anything less than 15~ total tends to feel very bland even if you are using them all the time (short CDs) as your rotation ends up being very simple and repetitive. But I think with consumables and additional items being used somewhere around roughly 30-50~ seems slim enough that you can find nuance while not being a logistic nightmare. I feel that once you start pushing upward of 50~ you start to run into severe bloat or at least in my opinion poor game design depending on the game.

Obviously this entire conversation is a large preference based argument as people look for different things in an MMO but when it comes to controller vs. KBM it's seriously just what you have spent more time on. I know some of my friends will never use KBM even though I think it is at least a more "intuitive system" where a lot of games don't feel like they cater to controller and it feels more like an afterthought unless we are talking about FPS then it's kind of a toss up. @Azherae However, I know you will disagree as someone who sounds like you come from controller for the last 15 years so it's all subjective however as I am a KBM warrior of 20+ years so it will always come naturally to me at this point.

I can definitely say that if I am struggling to fill out two hotbars of abilities this will definitely feel hollow (again preference). I usually end up sitting at 3 solid hotbars of "high use" bars and then 1-2 of low use in the games I have touched.

I have no opinion on this because, again, this isn't about KBM vs controller to me at all.

It depends on the game, but I do think it depends somewhat by genre.

If anything, I think that people exaggerate the difference/effect of it until you have over 50 skills to worry about.

But as example, I would NEVER try to play Lineage with a Controller, even 'half and half' with the controller. Click to move isn't worth it in that situation. Even if it didn't have click-to-move, I have learned from others that click-targeting is far superior in that game.

I am actually also better at FFXI with keyboard (but the game can be played ENTIRELY without mouse, if you're determined) or half-and-half, but the difference is so negligible under most circumstances (because I can customize my own Macros/hotbar) that I just use whatever's convenient.

I have played other games that are 'like FFXI but faster and more mobile' and I could play those on KBM as well but would not LIKE it, so I don't. That's what I wish for everyone. I don't know what I'll do in Ashes yet. I used both, I will practice both.

But I can see how 'this game is mobile and has 40 skills' reaches 'KBM' territory for ANYONE who hasn't been using a controller for a long time. KBM is always more versatile OR easier at around that point, particularly for very tactical or click-to-move games. Basically if you care more about the position of your reticle than how quickly you can DO the ability or how 'physically intuitive it feels', I'm sure KBM is better.

But Ashes does not have 40 skills, and having researched it more, ArcheAge uses a similar 'press this to change hotbar entirely' method as FFXI does, which means I could in fact map it to Controller easily. So back to 'preference based argument' now that I've hopefully addressed that...

It sounds like 20-30 is actually moreso 'a sweet spot' for you. Is that correct? At that point, it is not a question of Controller vs KBM at all, to me, so there would be no concerns there honestly EVEN if reticle positioning was important (you have to reach 40 skills before there's overlap between Ring Menu requirements and reticle movement even in a SoftLock-Tab game)

I'd say so. 20-40 active skills is where I am most happy because while I definitely appreciate your love for FFXI and the (I believe you said 100+ in this thread) large amount of skills. I find that we are probably on moderately different sides of the scale on this because while 100+ skills is a lot to juggle, FFXI looks to me like an algorithm game. all the videos shown in all the threads I have seen is mostly everyone standing at X range and going through their skills which is it's own kind of difficult and logic puzzle fun but it just turns into parsing with an infinite amount of if(x) statements. I am happy sitting at 20-40 because to me 40 is the upper end of meaningful skills when applying it to PvP or mechanics that are movement/reactive based. I am at my root a PvP player and there is fun/difficulty in the non-algorithmic nature of PvP (again, I don't want to derail into a PvE or difficulty or "99% of players will respond with Y when presented with X" it's just more a scaling issue for me where if there are more than 20 active skills (used in sub 20 seconds) it's just an overload and trending toward Starcraft and in that case.. I'll just play Starcraft.

I agree completely.

I love FFXI but it has a lot of things it could do better and a lot of strain points for most players, many of which are completely unnecessary.

I would never want them to rebuild it the same way it is now, it was a product of its time, and I am happy with the number Ashes has.

So to quickly reiterate my initial confusion:
Some people were SORTA acting like console dumbs down MMOs, even Action ones (especially Action ones?)

I come from a game with 100 abilities that I used to play on Console so I didn't know what they meant so I asked about the ability number and James helped educate me

I believe that 40 skills or less is possible on Console because Controllers can handle 40 skills

I wanted to understand what 'dumbing down' people were referring to, and to figure out if those people were also talking about games with 70+ skills that also had quick difficult positioning (ArcheAge for example has relatively mechanical combat)

I genuinely thank you for your answers, therefore. Seems that WE all, at least, can hope that TL, AA2, and ESPECIALLY Ashes, just keep going the way they are going, and I can PROBABLY ignore the 'console dumbs down MMOs!' people for now. They could easily be right, after all, but their perspectives don't seem to be BASED on anything that anyone has noted so far.

Being entirely honest, I think a lot of the "controller dumbs things down" crowd is more a knee jerk reaction to "sub-menu" and R2>Square>D-Pad up type navigation to get to skills etc. I have next to no experience with controllers but I definitely felt like an Ape trying to use one years ago. Definitely put it down after about 10 minutes and went "Yep, not for me".

And as a endcap for me opinions on this discussion as I think you are correct that we are hoping they continue on course and that I have no doubt you could make controller work regardless of what this loud anti-controller faction says.

Dygz

20-30 Active Skills should be fine - especially with the plethora of augments.

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