Simple proof of Vanilla WoW prep before raid

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I prefer hard core game design that leans heavily into crafting and econony. Vanilla was close to that, although youcould not make good gear, but I could easily spend 2h per day farming in order to min max battlegrounds, since raiding is only 2 times per week and before raids I would farm 3hours.

That's great. Please farm a lot and sell the pelts and hides in your Node. I am sure that many people will need them for repairing their various shoes and other pieces of leather armor.

Azherae wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I prefer hard core game design that leans heavily into crafting and econony. Vanilla was close to that, although youcould not make good gear, but I could easily spend 2h per day farming in order to min max battlegrounds, since raiding is only 2 times per week and before raids I would farm 3hours.

That's great. Please farm a lot and sell the pelts and hides in your Node. I am sure that many people will need them for repairing their various shoes and other pieces of leather armor.

We will see if gold is closer to modern wow which has no value or classic vanilla which had extreme values, so much that while leveling you only had to level main spell ranks or you would not stand a chance to get mount on 40lvl, even on 60lvl 100% speed which is 1k and you could farm 30g/h because it is beginning of release, later on you would farm 75g on usual farms.

So there is a lot of gold value there, no doubt about that, and that lasts for about a month where you have to spend gold as if you were poor irl. Raids, pots, mount, enchants, raegants, ammo ... it all adds up. Later on you are getting rich, but you also can spend more if you want to play good guy of economy.

Ofc you could save every gold, raids were not hard. Buuut, it was core of gameplay to grind and prepare, so we all did it.

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I prefer hard core game design that leans heavily into crafting and econony. Vanilla was close to that, although youcould not make good gear, but I could easily spend 2h per day farming in order to min max battlegrounds, since raiding is only 2 times per week and before raids I would farm 3hours.

That's great. Please farm a lot and sell the pelts and hides in your Node. I am sure that many people will need them for repairing their various shoes and other pieces of leather armor.

We will see if gold is closer to modern wow which has no value or classic vanilla which had extreme values, so much that while leveling you only had to level main spell ranks or you would not stand a chance to get mount on 40lvl, even on 60lvl 100% speed which is 1k and you could farm 30g/h because it is beginning of release, later on you would farm 75g on usual farms.

So there is a lot of gold value there, no doubt about that, and that lasts for about a month where you have to spend gold as if you were poor irl. Raids, pots, mount, enchants, raegants, ammo ... it all adds up. Later on you are getting rich, but you also can spend more if you want to play good guy of economy.

Ofc you could save every gold, raids were not hard. Buuut, it was core of gameplay to grind and prepare, so we all did it.

Games that take their economy design seriously don't have these problems. I'm sure Ashes will do very well. It's not very difficult.

And if it turns out that I only think it isn't very difficult because I've been studying it for so long, well... I'm here, so it's fine.

Look forward to a great economy in this game.

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I prefer hard core game design that leans heavily into crafting and econony. Vanilla was close to that, although youcould not make good gear, but I could easily spend 2h per day farming in order to min max battlegrounds, since raiding is only 2 times per week and before raids I would farm 3hours.

That's great. Please farm a lot and sell the pelts and hides in your Node. I am sure that many people will need them for repairing their various shoes and other pieces of leather armor.

We will see if gold is closer to modern wow which has no value or classic vanilla which had extreme values, so much that while leveling you only had to level main spell ranks or you would not stand a chance to get mount on 40lvl, even on 60lvl 100% speed which is 1k and you could farm 30g/h because it is beginning of release, later on you would farm 75g on usual farms.

So there is a lot of gold value there, no doubt about that, and that lasts for about a month where you have to spend gold as if you were poor irl. Raids, pots, mount, enchants, raegants, ammo ... it all adds up. Later on you are getting rich, but you also can spend more if you want to play good guy of economy.

Ofc you could save every gold, raids were not hard. Buuut, it was core of gameplay to grind and prepare, so we all did it.

In a game where the major purchase you make with gold is a mount, gold does not have "extreme value".

That is as near to being valueless as you can get in an MMORPG.

Haha, I think I understand you, but is farming for 30 hours easy when you get to 60lvl, consider also buying consumables for raiding and enchanting for gear, usually 1 flask or 1 enchant is your farm per hour, so yea.. Its a lot of gold...

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Haha, I think I understand you, but is farming for 30 hours easy when you get to 60lvl, consider also buying consumables for raiding and enchanting for gear, usually 1 flask or 1 enchant is your farm per hour, so yea.. Its a lot of gold...

Farming for 30h should always be 'easy' because it is fun.

If you're not having fun, do something more fun to make money.

That's the point of a good economy.

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Haha, I think I understand you, but is farming for 30 hours easy when you get to 60lvl, consider also buying consumables for raiding and enchanting for gear, usually 1 flask or 1 enchant is your farm per hour, so yea.. Its a lot of gold...

I dont think you understand at all.

You are somehow saying gold in WoW has value because you spend time farming in order to buy mounts. The thing is, the amount of gold required and the time spent to get that gold dont matter, because all you are doing is buying a mount.

Compare that to a game like Archeage, SWG or EVE (or Ashes), and you are farming gold in order to buy better gear.

What has more value, a mount, or better gear?

Since the answer is obviously better gear, and since it isnt really an option to use gold in WoW to buy better gear (generally speaking), gold in WoW is literally worth less than gold in games where it is the primary means behind character improvement.

Noaani wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Haha, I think I understand you, but is farming for 30 hours easy when you get to 60lvl, consider also buying consumables for raiding and enchanting for gear, usually 1 flask or 1 enchant is your farm per hour, so yea.. Its a lot of gold...

I dont think you understand at all.

You are somehow saying gold in WoW has value because you spend time farming in order to buy mounts. The thing is, the amount of gold required and the time spent to get that gold dont matter, because all you are doing is buying a mount.

Compare that to a game like Archeage, SWG or EVE (or Ashes), and you are farming gold in order to buy better gear.

What has more value, a mount, or better gear?

Since the answer is obviously better gear, and since it isnt really an option to use gold in WoW to buy better gear (generally speaking), gold in WoW is literally worth less than gold in games where it is the primary means behind character improvement.

Tell me you didn't play wow without saying you did not play wow xD

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Haha, I think I understand you, but is farming for 30 hours easy when you get to 60lvl, consider also buying consumables for raiding and enchanting for gear, usually 1 flask or 1 enchant is your farm per hour, so yea.. Its a lot of gold...

I dont think you understand at all.

You are somehow saying gold in WoW has value because you spend time farming in order to buy mounts. The thing is, the amount of gold required and the time spent to get that gold dont matter, because all you are doing is buying a mount.

Compare that to a game like Archeage, SWG or EVE (or Ashes), and you are farming gold in order to buy better gear.

What has more value, a mount, or better gear?

Since the answer is obviously better gear, and since it isnt really an option to use gold in WoW to buy better gear (generally speaking), gold in WoW is literally worth less than gold in games where it is the primary means behind character improvement.

Tell me you didn't play wow without saying you did not play wow xD

Obviously mounts are the most valuable thing in WoW.

Can you imagine what would happen if a player just 'didn't buy them'?

How would they even keep up?

Someone said it is a gold sink and every MMO needs that, I would argue that it is not so important as others see it. But because of so expensive items in WoW gold had immense value, don't just look up for mounts, look for spell training as well. It all adds up to somewhere around 3k gold or more, consider that you could farm 30g per hour in season 1 (patch 1) it is a lot of time spent, especially because you also needed enchants/consumables/pre-raid gear, it all adds up so much and creates gold value. When I dinged 80lvl in gw2 I bought all exotic gear for less then 15g, as a casual I don't even need to farm gold anymore because purple gear is only 7% stronger then exotic gear in gw2, I am fine with exotic gear to do casual PVP and even manage to 1v1 players.

Classic wow had similar gearing, but you needed to farm and why it is special is because it fits to my idea of MMORPGs, why? I don't like aoe grinding, vanilla wow was made so that when you kill 57lvl even as 60 blue geared you end up with 70% hp or even less mana, its slow and its cozy and relaxing. Also to mention that you had a lot of farming routes, it was not all about if you took skinning profession that you need to skin...no.. you could do a lot of things and that creates this feeling as if game has a game within it.

I already said why I did not like other mmos, its because gold has not same value as vanilla wow, how many times do I have to say this in order for you guys to agree with me... I can't explain it differently because thats only reason why I am worried as if AoC is going to turn like modern wow or similar to old wow... This is reason why I posted many posts about consumables/gear/professions, because for me if economy does not work, I wont play this game as soon as I see economy is bad. I like modern wow combat, but I am not playing it because of economy... You can't just say it will be good because they won't put prices, people will have to do it, and its risky, also if we are going to farm 1000g/h I will be bored as well because its not logical for medieval age to farm 1k gold, I want reasonable prices, 3-4g/h will be great, we are not kings, it is very important for me that gold is logical to me, it adds up so much more immersion and I cannot treat RPG games just as games, its another life for me, I live in them. If I wanted to play just another regular game, I would not be bothered with boring MMOs, I would play dota2 or LoL where its always action going on, or valorant, cs:go... I have all these games and I play them when I want action, but when I choose to play MMOs I no life it and I want to get as immersed as I can.

Nova_terra

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Someone said it is a gold sink and every MMO needs that, I would argue that it is not so important as others see it. But because of so expensive items in WoW gold had immense value, don't just look up for mounts, look for spell training as well. It all adds up to somewhere around 3k gold or more, consider that you could farm 30g per hour in season 1 (patch 1) it is a lot of time spent, especially because you also needed enchants/consumables/pre-raid gear, it all adds up so much and creates gold value. When I dinged 80lvl in gw2 I bought all exotic gear for less then 15g, as a casual I don't even need to farm gold anymore because purple gear is only 7% stronger then exotic gear in gw2, I am fine with exotic gear to do casual PVP and even manage to 1v1 players.

Classic wow had similar gearing, but you needed to farm and why it is special is because it fits to my idea of MMORPGs, why? I don't like aoe grinding, vanilla wow was made so that when you kill 57lvl even as 60 blue geared you end up with 70% hp or even less mana, its slow and its cozy and relaxing. Also to mention that you had a lot of farming routes, it was not all about if you took skinning profession that you need to skin...no.. you could do a lot of things and that creates this feeling as if game has a game within it.

I already said why I did not like other mmos, its because gold has not same value as vanilla wow, how many times do I have to say this in order for you guys to agree with me... I can't explain it differently because thats only reason why I am worried as if AoC is going to turn like modern wow or similar to old wow... This is reason why I posted many posts about consumables/gear/professions, because for me if economy does not work, I wont play this game as soon as I see economy is bad. I like modern wow combat, but I am not playing it because of economy... You can't just say it will be good because they won't put prices, people will have to do it, and its risky, also if we are going to farm 1000g/h I will be bored as well because its not logical for medieval age to farm 1k gold, I want reasonable prices, 3-4g/h will be great, we are not kings, it is very important for me that gold is logical to me, it adds up so much more immersion and I cannot treat RPG games just as games, its another life for me, I live in them. If I wanted to play just another regular game, I would not be bothered with boring MMOs, I would play dota2 or LoL where its always action going on, or valorant, cs:go... I have all these games and I play them when I want action, but when I choose to play MMOs I no life it and I want to get as immersed as I can.

So maybe this game isn't for you.. It's a joke to even say it at this point but you have made it extremely clear in all of your posts that you believe your opinion to be the only one that is right and refuse to even listen to other perspectives. No amount of telling us about WoW will convince us (the majority it seems anyway) that it was the pinnacle of gaming like you seem to think. The economy is a joke in WoW and it was a minigame/side game at best. Based on your posts, it seems like you haven't bought into the pre-testing either so just wait and see if this game is anything even remotely close to what you want otherwise you can easily decide to not play.

I am excited for this game to release when it is ready and love engaging with people on the forums about expectations and the like but it has been clear from the start that this game will not resemble WoW at all and if that is a problem for you it may be in your best interest to wait to see gameplay and judge for yourself if you want to dive into this game since it won't be anything like WoW.

to be clear what AoC is promising is better then any MMO, even those in older times that had similar systems.
From graphics to combat idea and spells that change via second profession type, systems, professions all this adds up to a very good game.
However, I am concerned only with economy, many games had great ideas and they played very well, but economy was so bad. I am only talking that vanilla WoW had some great game design, from itemization (RPG - realism in item stats, sword double proc, axes crit/bleed, maces - stun etc...) to some very good gold spending via consumables mainly, resistance gear for tanks and melee dps and many routines to farm gold (even if you had 2 professions, many routes did not need profession to farm gold, it was via drops from mobs or dungeon drops), overall vanilla wow had the best ''preparing'' system in game... Even though you did grind mob per mob, it was relaxing as well, this is why I like this balance between EQ99 and more modern MMO, it still felt hard, but it was cozy enough to not min max while leveling/doing grinding for gold (you did not need to kite and all that stuff, or even group up for most of farms - non elite farms), on top of all that - PVP in open world played big role, sometimes people wound not attack you because they were onto something, but other times people would attack you if you are grinding on same spot as they, it all adds up immersion and some vibes of open world being dangerous due to ''hard'' mobs and other players.

I am only talking reasonable things, when I say preparing was well done, it was really well done, like you had to spend time (in your free time) to prepare for weekly raid, tell me a game that had same system and I would tell you that this or that game is well made, because whole point of MMORPGs is to have this kind of prep going on always, if you can do content without preparing then game is closer to being theme-park lobby MMO even if there are no instanced content, whats the point of open world if you did not need to roam and prepare there. This is superior argument to all arguments that you made, whatever you were talking because for me, all this talk was unreasonable, because I was talking about this topic only - preparing.

https://clips.twitch.tv/CleverGentleAntelopeEleGiggle-w7NYZwkRIOkOEX93

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Haha, I think I understand you, but is farming for 30 hours easy when you get to 60lvl, consider also buying consumables for raiding and enchanting for gear, usually 1 flask or 1 enchant is your farm per hour, so yea.. Its a lot of gold...

I dont think you understand at all.

You are somehow saying gold in WoW has value because you spend time farming in order to buy mounts. The thing is, the amount of gold required and the time spent to get that gold dont matter, because all you are doing is buying a mount.

Compare that to a game like Archeage, SWG or EVE (or Ashes), and you are farming gold in order to buy better gear.

What has more value, a mount, or better gear?

Since the answer is obviously better gear, and since it isnt really an option to use gold in WoW to buy better gear (generally speaking), gold in WoW is literally worth less than gold in games where it is the primary means behind character improvement.

Tell me you didn't play wow without saying you did not play wow xD

I mean, you're telling us all you havent played a game with a real economy before.

Any game in which mounts are considered a high ticket item is a game that has no real economy.

Sure, enchants and spell training are a thing, but so what? They are a thing in most games. In EQ2 (a game I do not consider to have a top tier economy), spell training could cost tens of thousands of gold at original release, literally no one had all top tier spells because literally no one could afford it. A mount in that game would still take weeks worth of farming to achieve (the developers interviewed the first player to acquire a top tier mount), but mounts were not the most expensive or most desired single item in the game.

Again, that game didn't have a top tier economy, but it was still better than WoW's.

Your comment about pre-raid gear is just amusing. It took less time to run content for it than to farm and buy it. This is why the price dropped as more and more people hit the level cap (at which point it did become cheaper to buy it, but only because it was so damn cheap).

Again though, in a game with a top tier economy,you aren't using gold to buy pre-raid gear, you are using gold to buy raid gear, and to upgrade raid gear.

In Archeage, a game with a top tier economy, players had a cap on the amount of work they could do in a day. Most players were able to earn 200g per day when I was playing before they hit that cap.

Using the economy, I was earning 5k gold per day on average, much more than that on some days. I spent well over 250,000g on gear upgrades to a single item in a single day (3+ years worth of daily farming to most players).

But sure, your farming 30g an hour to get a mount and some pre-raid gear that is easier to run content to get is a sign of a game with a good economy.

Ludullu

I don't pay too much attention to Asmon's opinions on non-wow shit, but when he talks about WoW (and chat usually agrees in big numbers) - I at least trust his experience. Here's a very nice clip about the vanilla world raid prep

I was mainly talking about consumables, for that you really needed to do farming every day if you wanted to do raids and dungeons properly. I did not talk about gearing or other stuff, I just added mounts + spell training as gold sinks, but it is not really that big of a gold sink.

Also I think its not a gold sink when you need materials to buy from vendor to craft something, because you are going to return that gold the same way you return gold from buying player made materials/gatherable.

Vanilla WoW economy was pure masterpiece because you could feel worthiness of every penny, at leveling so as at max level. You had to think before spending gold, because if you do one mistake learning 3-4 spells that are not needed, then you probably wouldn't have had gold to learn all basic spells that are needed to increase dmg / survivability. There were many things to consider before spending gold, reagents, leveling professions, bags, ammo, food/drinks, maybe buying some pieces of gear from player made gear because there were some pieces that would last 15 levels, so it was worth buying or at least you had option if you wanted to be the best in PvP.

I did not play those games you are talking about and I agree it sounds like gold had value there, but day to day things mattered in wow. For example in gw2 or new world I don't need to farm gold at all, it has no value for me, why would I farm gold to just stack it up in inventory and never use it. Vanilla wow in that case was good because you always had chance to improve your playstyle and player power via consumables and other things, mainly consumables.

I would really think again if I were you before I say vanilla WoW had bad economy, just because you look from point of gearing does not mean that gold did not have any value in vanilla.

What about World Buffs? It is another kind of farming that is not used by gold, but its there, and it creates player friction because if another raid that was PVP guild would see you or your raid in open world, they would instantly start ganking you to kill, so that they remove your buffs. Just look at awesome PVP movies in open world from vanilla WoW, battles 40v40 or more happening randomly when raid bumps into another raid, because you were both just going to raid and you met each other randomly literally... and it was happening very often in PVP servers...

I don't know what asmon is talking about, but pure RPG elements are those that put you to farm in open world and prepare like you would before going into big important battle. This is the realism behind RPG element of professions/gathering, if its done badly and if it is not important, then why the hell would you want open world PVP game, why would you roam in open world doing nothing progression wise, why would you want PVP game that is just full of gangers without any soulful idea of progression that is meaningful... How can't you guys understand what I am talking - conclusion - open world is meaningless if there is no meaningful progression and preparing.

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

How can't you guys understand what I am talking.

This is what we are all wondering of you.

Imagine in Ashes that me and my friends are all set up to craft all types of weapons and armor. "Preperation" for raiding will simply be to go to the market and purchase what we need. It will take us a few minutes at most.

Sure, it would take us a bit longer to earn the gold we used to make those purchases, but that is a factor of a good economy in a game.

Fact is, preparing for a raid can and should be a thing, but it is not a major thing. It's something that should take a few minutes, unless you happen to enjoy being an alchemist in game at which point you would consider it your primary means of interacting the the economy rather than considering it your raid prep.

I did not mean that alchemy must be core of economy, I just wanted to point few things how vanilla dealt with alchemy and cooking and why it was a masterpiece for that matter. Of course I would like for every profession to be meaningful, but if they don't do alchemy/cooking right, then economy won't feel the same as if they did it similar to vanilla WoW.

Of course you could debate that if consumables were very strong that alchemists would make the best profit, but that is not the case, because one ship will cost maybe 30 hours of farming and one flask/food would cost 1 hour of farming. If they do economy good, so that it is not one time purchase then economy will flourish, both for engineering or gearing professions.

DarkTides