I had a gut feeling for a year now that AoC wasn't going to nail the combat

So many ideas of this game are so great, this game is so promising, but one thing we never heard much about was the combat. I had a gut feeling they wouldn't be able to pull off anything spectacular.

It's an MMORPG with heavy pvp elements, so many things in the game will be tied to the pvp, the combat is at least half the game, if not more. Dungeons, seiges, professions to make things regarding combat, world bosses, you name it.

That being said I seen the cleansing wave on the cleric the other day "removes the most recent negative effect that target received" and knew immediately that yes, the combat is going to be really lacking.

That right there was the entire spectrum of dispelling done in 1 skill. Here's my guess, every class will use mana, every class will have a general somewhat simple Vanilla esque rotation(except possibly more dull), and most character building will be done with very shallow augmentations, skill trees/talent trees and maybe a bit of other mechanics that change surface level rpg stats like crit chance, hit chance, ect.

Regardless, none of it means much if there isn't a breadth of skills to play with. Vanilla combat was decent but most of the WoW community will agree that retail combat, apart from the class homogenization, is leagues and bounds better.

And that's not to say that this should be exactly like WoW, but I think for this game it's important that the combat have some depth to it, cause right now it's looking like AoC is going to be really shallow.

It's not easy, thinking about skills that tie into resources, that tie into items, that tie into professions, maybe not completely but i guess what i'm trying to say is you know when people play this game, it's not gonna be that fun if there isn't any "oh check this out, if i do this then that then this, it does that"

That's ABSOLUTELY the majority reason why WoW not only got so big but stayed so big for so long, if you really pay attention the thought they put into even the first 2 expansions and Vanilla combat is unfucking believable, people are still figuring out interesting combinations of things 15 years later. It's fun to play with it and it holds lots of secrets and a lot of those secrets were really thought out.

What AoC is reminding me of right now is a developer who thought "gotta have CC, and dispelling and debuffs and all these aspects of an mmo rpg", but doesn't get it, theyre trying to copy something that's already been done and just doing it worse, and honestly I don't think it can be done much better than retail WoW does it apart from removing the homogenization and adding more hybridable talent trees. That isn't to say they need to have all the same classes, and skills, and talents and... you get it, they just need to understand the way it works.

Well there's more they can improve on, but they gotta start with what already works, and works well. AoC seems like it's trying to re-invent the wheel with mmorpg combat and it's not gonna happen. The action combat is a + definitely so they got that going for them, they got unique skills which is awesome, but the fundamentals... I just got this feeling theyre gonna fall flat on their face and it's such a shame. They're either trying too hard to be unique, they don't really understand what makes combat fun in MMO rpgs, or they think it can just be this simple and still be fun.

And sure, it will be, for a little while, but not for long, and not THAT fun. And this game has so much potential for so much replayability. I can see people playing this game in 20 years, lots of people, if they do the combat right and deliver on everything else they've talked about so far.

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Tyranthraxus

It's really cool that you've gotten to play the finished product, dude!

Have thought about freezing myself until launch - but I never even gave ANY serious thought to time-travel! I can't wait to play too, so I can write a forums-thread just as-insightful and knowing as you did, here.

Voxtrium

Of course we don't know what will happen down the line, but its not a bad thing to voice concern now, your gut feeling might be right, if it is, I hope you join us again on the feedback during alpha2 so we can push for abilities with greater depth.

I certainly do agree that this is a game that has a lot tied to its combat and if it doesn't provide avenues for depth it could lead to trouble long term for the game which would be heartbreaking. However we have the advantage of Alpha2 coming up, it should give us plenty of time to react to abilities and for them to change accordingly if needed.

PherPhur

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

It's really cool that you've gotten to play the finished product, dude!

Have thought about freezing myself until launch - but I never even gave ANY serious thought to time-travel! I can't wait to play too, so I can write a forums-thread just as-insightful and knowing as you did, here.

Unveiling combat on a class with a single skill that debuffs any negative effect immediately shows the path that Intrepid is walking in regards to combat, even if the game is in alpha.

It shows they don't have a great idea on what to do.

In game design not many things turn out too great just tossing things in there, most great things are pretty thought out and based on other things which might be even based on other things.

That's because each implementation of something is laying a foundation and they are 100% not going to go back and completely rework it from the ground up(at least not until another "expansion", and even then not unless they know what they're doing).

I have a strong feeling we'll see this be an issue all the way through development and like the second poster here said, i'm voicing my concern now, and hopefully I won't be bringing this back up throughout the persistent alpha, but I got the feeling I am. I got a really really strong feeling Intrepid for some reason or another is going to struggle HARD with combat.

Though, like I said, they're doing some cool stuff already in terms of some unique skills and the action combat, and of course the rest of the game and what they've said they're going to do sounds(minus some of the much finer details) incredible. So clearly they're trying, but I really do expect to see this be a big issue. I also expect to see a large portion of the community downplay it which I really hope doesn't happen.

I'm not trying to be a downer, I want to see this game succeed. If anyones played other MMORPGs, if they've played WoW, and they've payed attention and thought about it really hard, given the fundamentals of standard MMORPGs like buffs, debuffs, classes, skills, resources to use those skills, ect, if you've reallllly thought about it you'll know WoW, for the most part, does combat as about great as it can get, minus homogenization and pruning of the skill tree's and taking away hybridibility(is this a word lol?)

There's gonna need to be macros, instant cast skills that don't trigger the global cooldown, a global cooldown, really cool thought out hidden interactions between those, buffs, debuffs, several different ways to rid those debuffs, resources to cast skills that work differently than mana, ect, ect. This isn't copying WoW, these are things that originated from WoW who set the fundamentals of great RPGs, there's a reason they're copied.

I'm telling you the people who designed WoW thought REALLY hard on just about everything you can do in regards to combat in an RPG with the tech they had at the time and they designed it about as well as it could be.

Apart from technical limitations and a few odds and ends they nailed it. You can flavor it differently, you can fix those few odds and ends, you can implement some things that were limited by tech/understanding/time constraints of the time(tab action hybrid combat, flying combat, mounted combat). You can interweave new aspects of the game with the combat(weather modifiers, new professions, world boss modifiers on the zone effecting the weather which effects the skills). But lets not reinvent the wheel, cause the circle is the wheel and it's clearly, now that it's been figured out, the best shape for the wheel.

Azherae

See, I hate this take, and I hate even more that I don't technically have anything to refute it with.

But it's not clear if you're suggesting that they don't WANT it to be better than this, or that they're just not CAPABLE of making it better than this.

The first 'doesn't need solving', it just needs clarity. The second, I feel could be solved and they're actively in the process of it.

So are you saying 'your gut tells you that they will never nail the combat' (and maybe don't plan to) or is it 'that they wouldn't manage it in within the last year' and you were right to be concerned a year ago about slow progress?

Thokan

Well, it is a hybrid combat system and thus it will be near impossible to make it as obviously, at-the-surface intricate as a classic MMO combat system relying on 5 rows of 40 buttons to push. It's just different. They sure got the class system going for them for the intricacy, while the handful active skills against it. But hey, action is nice too, and atleast its more than the slimmed down combats of ESO or New World or such.

The more I hear Steven talk, and the more they are showing; the better the combat looks in my eyes.

Steven likes to talk about synergies so here's a quick suggestion regarding that skill: Class synergies. Instead of dispelling all negative effects, make it dispel one type, and one class another, and another. Very simply you will have different classes for different situations creating synergies, and a more intricate combat.

Solvryn

There needs to be a meaningful button press that correlates with tab and action, they just need to pick the pieces of tab and action they want.

Though I can agree with they're not so sure on the direction they're going to take.

Dygz

Lots of things we "haven't heard much about".
Combat is still bare bones. No direct demo of augments, yet, so...
No. They have not nailed down their combat design yet.
Which is probably fine since Alpha 2 is not yet on the horizon.

Liniker

what

NishUK

I think they should give combat a higher priority, I mean the hammer ability and first glimpse of healer are just not appealing. For healer they needed to go in a lot more, at the end of the day all these skill or gameplay reveals are too early and it's basically just a self gloat "aren't we doing well! give us a pat on the back!".

@ChipsAhoy007 WoW did have a "pvp game" but it was never a PVP GAME.

It's important to understand that tactful+world/player/guild building mmorpg's the PvE and PvP have to mesh and judging by your opinion it appears as you consider WoW as the best to ever do it but there's so much to unpack with your standards and what you consider to be a social and team work orientated world game.

Taleof2Cities

Liniker wrote: »

what

Yep.

As @Tyranthraxus said, the OP has formed their judgment already … despite it being common knowledge that the game still has years of development (and player feedback) ahead.

A mantra we see in the forums a lot might have application here:

“Ashes will not be for everyone.”

Solvryn

Dygz wrote: »

Lots of things we "haven't heard much about".
Combat is still bare bones. No direct demo of augments, yet, so...
No. They have not nailed down their combat design yet.
Which is probably fine since Alpha 2 is not yet on the horizon.

/thread

Letterz

OK there is alot to unpack here , and remember I am just responding with my feelings and experience not trying to be positive or negative just giving a response:

1) You seem to be taking a negative from a clerical spelling cleansing the most recent debuff, as a foundation of your complaint. its just the most negative debuff, not all debuffs if i am understanding correctly. I dont see a major issue with that. the clerical spell can be on cool down, cost mana or be a perk that is in the talent tree I havent done enough research on it to be honest. And its not that I dont care I am just waiting to get my hands on the game when they come out with Alpha 2. I feel this is what Alpha 2 is all about helping to refine the game. let them come up with something then we as players give our feedback on what seems to be working vs what isnt. what need improving and what is over powered and needs the nerf bat.

2) you state that every class will use mana. I think what you are referring to is every class having some sort of resource they need to balance. which makes sense in most cases. EG you can just build one massive awesome skill and spam it over and over again with zero resource management, is what most devs do not want to create. but they even mention this in the live stream: hey what do you guys think about stamina for tanks when blocking? again play testing we can try this out and see what works and what doesnt. if its an active mitigation or should it be a "stance" where it is a passive ability?

3) your references to modern wow, i have zero comment on i tried modern wow and its a hard pass for me. seems more like an mmo version of diablo than the retail wow i remember from playing vanilla thru wrath. but thats just me

4) Not sure what you mean by some dev thought we need CC, debuffs ect. I think most games have those? I played Asherons Call back in the day and even then there we debuffs and buffs you could use (no CC though). So not sure where you are going with this one.

5) I cant follow why you think the Combat is a fail system. Maybe I just dont know as much about it. maybe I am more patient because its hard for me to tell what exactly is going on with mechanics till i can get into the game and start really breaking stuff apart. maybe its the fact that (to me) the UI needs a massive amount of love to help me figure out everything thats going on. I think one thing that we both agree on is that the devs are really trying hard to put out an absolutely amazing game. and I am not kissing ass when I say that I am blown away with the level of detail they are putting into every aspect of the game they have shown.

Summary: be patient, get into alpha 2 try the systems, give feedback.

One last point, if you see something you dont like or that could be an issue be very specific, and even better come up with a couple ideas for solutions.

Just my 2 copper

Letterz

Uboon

Can @ChipsAhoy007 please give us an example skill/combo of what WOW did really well that you fear Intrepid will not implement?

Arya_Yeshe

I won't even read the OP's post, I will just reply the thread's subject with this:

-What? The Alpha-2 didn't come out yet, it is too soon to judge the combat system

Mag7spy

If Alpha 2 was out this would be fairer a comment maybe. This is the element where people are trying to look at it like a finished game when they have not showed everything or updated the past showcasing to a closer final element or adjusted based on feedback.

Also WoW combat isn't good that is dated and old now. Though my experience is mostly in the older WoW and not all the newer expansions in the past many years. Sure they added some more modern mechanics still going to be dated and not good imo.

Iskiab

Okay, first let’s start with some of the claims.

Actually, WoW’s vanilla combat was very basic, a lot more basic than it is now. At the height of WoW’s popularity there were still classes with 1 button rotations. Over time what happened was they took away character customization (nerfed spec trees) and added more complex rotations. The timelines for these changes correspond directly with the decrease in popularity of WoW, meaning there’s not only no evidence you’re right, but there’s evidence that it’s actually the opposite of what you’re saying, what’s popular is more character customization and less complex gameplay.

About AoC itself, I agree it looks basic. Some of the mechanics look like prototypes rather than fully flushed out systems (for example every class uses mana, and mana is depleted while sprinting).

In development usually you have an architect who comes up with the overall plan and then developers implement that plan. AoC reminds me of a project with no architect, and some of the systems are being flushed out as they go. We’ll see, but usually that results in a disorganized mess that constantly needs to be refactored. The stat system and mechanic basics should be fully thought out before creating abilities, so I’m worried a bit about AoC’s systems too, just not for the reasons you say.

Fantmx

While I don't agree with everything the OP has said I think it is dumb to sit back and say you can't judge because it isn't out yet or this isn't a valid opinion because they haven't played a released game yet.

The whole reason to have open development IS to provide judgement, comments, opinions and God forbid negative feedback at ALL stages of development.

If not, why the hell are we doing it this way?

Gui10

I do not comprehend how you can have such a "gut feeling" for such a thing.

What I think you have is a fear. And now you are trying to justify your fear by accusing the combat of being bad.

It's still way too early to make comments about how good or bad combat is. Still so many changes to be made. IS has been listening to the community and adapting quite well imho. Thats the reason I have no doubt the combat will be good. THey give a lot of opportunities for testing and player feedback, and they adjust in consequence. If the combat is bad now, it will only get better.

SKullknight

They should just pick one tab target or action combat. No in between.

Ludullu

SKullknight wrote: »

They should just pick one tab target or action combat. No in between.

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